New (teen) drivers: training and vehicle discussion

[RealBlackStuff]

It is utterly irresponsible to let 16-year old kids behind the wheel in the USA!
They should increase the 'driving' age to at least 18 (like everywhere else in the world).
Furthermore, these kids should have proper driving lessons (at least one for each year of their age, so an 18-year-old needs at least 18 lessons) from a proper, licensed driving instructor, and not be allowed to drive on their own, until they have passed a proper driving test, both written and in the city, on country roads an on highways.
Not the incredibly stupid, literally short-sighted American way of just driving around the block, or around the nearest farm if you are in the country-side!
And the next thing to do: get proper insurance for everybody, which needs WAY much more enforcement than the kindergarten control it gets now!
People should have their own license plates, which should get withdrawn by the police, if you have not paid your insurance.
The insurance company should then inform the police if premiums have not been paid.
And insurance companies also need to be better trained!
I have almost half a century of no-claims driving history, but each insurance company here starts you afresh, the only 'discount' being: no accidents/violations for the last 3 years or so. Any more 'good' years have to be 'earned' while being insured in the same outfit!
Silly companies like Allstate promise you a check every 6 month (if you have behaved).
But they first rip you off for that money in their premiums to begin with, so where is the gain?

[Medessec]

It is utterly irresponsible to let 16-year old kids behind the wheel in the USA!
They should increase the 'driving' age to at least 18 (like everywhere else in the world).

What I meant by letting kids drive at an early age is... not on the roads, obviously. But give them the opportunity to drive motorized vehicles of some sort, early on, so they have the experience, and are safer drivers in the long run.

Furthermore, these kids should have proper driving lessons (at least one for each year of their age, so an 18-year-old needs at least 18 lessons) from a proper, licensed driving instructor, and not be allowed to drive on their own, until they have passed a proper driving test, both written and in the city, on country roads an on highways.

This I agree with. And some DMVs do that too- the DMV where I took my test had a really short one... and they took Highway driving off their test for some reason. So I wasn't tested on highway driving. A friend of mine-though, took his test at a different DMV, and had to drive over 10 miles in downtown, the test took nearly half-an-hour.

And the next thing to do: get proper insurance for everybody, which needs WAY much more enforcement than the kindergarten control it gets now!
People should have their own license plates, which should get withdrawn by the police, if you have not paid your insurance.

This is a bit of a different issue other than road safety... it's a government and restricting thing. I agree everyone should have insurance, but I'm not completely sure about them being policed on it at the expense of their license.

But yeah... insurance companies really need to step up their game. My parents and I use USAA, and it took them nearly 8 months to pick up the point on my dad's license for a speeding ticket, and my dad had long since finished contesting the ticket, and gotten the bail check. 8 months ago. We had to go back and forth between the DMV and USAA offices with paperwork to confirm there was no points on his license. Other than that, USAA seems alright, by my parent's judgement.

[Norway Pad]

And the next thing to do: get proper insurance for everybody, which needs WAY much more enforcement than the kindergarten control it gets now!
People should have their own license plates, which should get withdrawn by the police, if you have not paid your insurance.
The insurance company should then inform the police if premiums have not been paid.

I am surprised by that, particularly in the US where health care isn't free, and where it can theoretically be a financial ruin for people who get injured by someone without insurance. Here in Norway there is a two way waterproof communication between our "DMV" and the insurance company to insure proper insurance. You get no plates for your car before you have evidence that you have insurance on the car, and you can't cancel the insurance before the plates are confirmed by DMV as being turned in. And if you don't pay your insurance on time, there is a "de-licensing" warrant issued for your car, which means that the police can just cut your plates off if you get pulled over, or if they spot your car parked and happen to check it up. I also have to mention that this system is made easier by the fact that our cars have a license plate number that is given to the car at first sale, and is kept for the entire car's lifetime. Even if you take the plates off, you can get that same number back years later. I remember that US plates changed from state to state, and that you could have any name/number you wanted on your plate. (Our van in the US first said RTFM, later is was changed to BJORN. These are now hanging on our wall. ) That would probably require the VIN to be used as the main ID of your car.

[ansible212]

Insight into the differences between passing the UK driving test and the States in this article from the Guardian:

An American tribute to British drivers

My American compatriots are shocked when I tell them that to earn a UK license I had to take a lengthy theory test, computerized hazard perception test, eye sight test, vehicle safety test, and a 40-minute driving test with a meticulous examiner jotting down each of my "faults" in real time.

It's not all good of course, over here there is increasing use of ANPR which, whilst it does ensure that those driving without insurance and who haven't paid their Vehicle Excise Duty (often referred to as road tax) can be detected relatively easily, raises privacy concerns (i.e. that the police, and by inference the state, can track people's movements).

[RealBlackStuff]

Since there is little privacy in this country anyway (NSA, CIA, FBI, take your alphabet soup pick), if they also had ANPR (and better driving instruction) here, I'm sure insurance premiums could be cut in half!

[Saucey]

Getting my license was a walk in the park..
I did read the driver's handbook for California, but I drove an extra 30 minutes to get my license at an lenient DMV.
I don't understand how some fail, I can understand anxiety but not knowing the rules is stupid. High School drop out rates are supposedly high, I know few of my peers don't have an 8th grade reading level which was what our high school exit exam difficulty is at with basic algebra (like real basic). Still they fail, and their parents wonder why they can't get a license

[ansible212]

Since there is little privacy in this country anyway (NSA, CIA, FBI, take your alphabet soup pick), if they also had ANPR (and better driving instruction) here, I'm sure insurance premiums could be cut in half!

That thought did occur to me...

[ajkula66]

Since there is little privacy in this country anyway (NSA, CIA, FBI, take your alphabet soup pick), if they also had ANPR (and better driving instruction) here, I'm sure insurance premiums could be cut in half!

But that's not something that the insurance companies would appreciate...

[killer]

Before going on the public roads my niece had driving lessons on a road system specially set up in an old army camp near Aldershot. It had all the hazards one might encounter in real life. She also had training on a skid pan. She is a good driver.

My nephew lives in the wilds of west Wales. He learnt to drive with a professional instructor. When he passed his test and bought a car he asked his insurance company to install a 'black box' in the car. This monitors the time of day when the car is driven, speeds, braking pressure, etc. This allows his insurer to have a curfew on late night driving (after the pubs shut) as well as to reward my nephew if he drives well. In the first year he received a rebate of almost 50% of his premium.

[ajkula66]

My nephew lives in the wilds of west Wales. He learnt to drive with a professional instructor. When he passed his test and bought a car he asked his insurance company to install a 'black box' in the car. This monitors the time of day when the car is driven, speeds, braking pressure, etc. This allows his insurer to have a curfew on late night driving (after the pubs shut) as well as to reward my nephew if he drives well. In the first year he received a rebate of almost 50% of his premium.

Good Lord.

If this is indeed the way of the future, I'll never be able to apologize enough to my children for bringing them into this world...

Whatever happened to UK where I got my license three decades ago...and where one's personal freedoms were truly held in highest regard...

[killer]

Having a black box is entirely voluntary. People opt for a box in order to save themselves, or their parents, a huge amount of money.
BTW, in the UK the noun is licence, the verb is license. Funny old world!

[ajkula66]

Having a black box is entirely voluntary.

For now it is...not for long if the ^%(&@# in Brussels get their ways...

BTW, in the UK the noun is licence, the verb is license. Funny old world!

Apologies, old chap...15 years of living in the U.S. has done incredible damage to my once proper (bar accent, that is) British English...

[Medessec]

I wouldn't want to install a black box in my car for an insurance company to review... and the day it becomes a requirement, I don't know what I'll do but it's just not going to be a positive situation.

I really don't like it when people judge driving based on how quickly, or vigorously you drive... because it's not how FAST you drive, it's HOW you drive. And as I mentioned earlier, people need to know the limits of themselves and their cars, because not being aware can open the door for a car accident when you take your car by surprise one day.

From what I've seen... I know I've only been on the roads for a couple of years, but most car accidents I've seen have been caused by driving neglect, not by speed or vigorous driving. If you turn too quickly and your car understeers into a hedge, that's neglect, because you didn't acknowledge your car's dynamics, or didn't know. If you move over a lane without checking your mirrors or glancing over your shoulder, that's neglect. If you're texting, or diverting your attention in some way, or inebriated, that's driving neglect. If you're going 45 MPH in a residential zone, and you couldn't stop in time for a child that walks out in the street to get his frisbee, that's neglect... because you didn't think the risks through, and accept the consequences.

So- experience may be a big chunk of it, (and I'm not disputing that at all) but paying attention, knowing your surroundings, and keeping other drivers in mind, that's another big chunk of it. With whatever's left over being your car.

Back to the black box thing... I *would* like to install one just to compare my driving to someone else's... and also to teach someone how to drive a car comfortably, while allowing them to go out on their own. Doesn't sound half bad.

[ansible212]

To put this in a UK perspective (which is where the black box comment originates), young drivers present a significantly higher risk and so insurance premiums are set accordingly and usually prohibitively higher than for older drivers.

The black box mitigates the risk (i.e. demonstrates that the young driver in question is driving responsibly and therefore presents a lower risk than his or her peers and so can benefit from lower premiums).

The above could apply anywhere in the world, however, the UK is a far more densely populated country than the United States, so the black box becomes more relevant over here than perhaps it is in the US.

Many company vehicles carry tracking devices, and there are a range of ways in which drivers are currently tracked on top of the aforementioned ANPR. For example, CCTV is everywhere - there was a major controversy in the last couple of years in one British city, Birmingham, where CCTV had been installed ostensibly to prevent crime but was alleged to have been installed to track Muslims (it was deactivated), however that really is the tip of the iceberg (even London buses have CCTV mounted front and rear in many cases - in addition to inside the vehicle) and there is a nationwide network of CCTV operated by Tafficmaster, again designed to monitor traffic flow but which could be (and indeed has been) used by the police when investigating crime.

(To say nothing of tracking movements by monitoring cell phone location - but that veers way off topic.)

[killer]

My father-in-law had to send his licence back to the licensing authorities after he lost spatial awareness. He hadn't noticed it but the people whose cars he hit certainly noticed it. He tried to park in spaces that were big enough for a bicycle but not for a car. It's not just young people at fault. Old people lose their senses and it is sometimes kinder to hand in their licence than to allow them to say it wasn't their fault ... when it was clear to see who was at fault.
The downside is that he now has to walk and at nearly 90 that is a problem for him. I see his point of view but I prefer him to be off the road now.

The last time I was in the US (in Florida) I saw old people driving that probably would have been better suited in a coffin. That might sound horrible but there does come a time when we all have to stop. Apologies if I have offended anyone.

@:ajkula66: Dear George, Your wisdom and friendliness is worth more than a discussion over whether a c or an s is used in a word. Tomato or tomato, licence or license. If it makes sense ... it make sense. Come on, all pedants, and challenge that!
BTW, Brussels has no power over UK licensing. I can park my UK registered car illegally in any EU country and (unless it is towed away) any parking ticket is worthless because our licensing authority tell them to self-procreate, if you catch my drift.

[ajkula66]

@:ajkula66: Dear George, Your wisdom and friendliness is worth more than a discussion over whether a c or an s is used in a word. Tomato or tomato, licence or license. If it makes sense ... it make sense. Come on, all pedants, and challenge that!

Thank you for the kind words, good sir. What can I possibly say...

BTW, Brussels has no power over UK licensing. I can park my UK registered car illegally in any EU country and (unless it is towed away) any parking ticket is worthless because our licensing authority tell them to self-procreate, if you catch my drift.

Oh I know that Brussels has no power over the UK licensing process...with that said, I do view EU as the root of all evils and its nanny-ism mentality is unfortunately spreading like an aggressive cancer, even to the territories that once valued free spirit more than anything else...

[Medessec]

I do view EU as the root of all evils and its nanny-ism mentality is unfortunately spreading like an aggressive cancer

Quite a harsh, finger-pointing statement... but I'd have to say I'm not going to tune out by any means, because this really is on par with what my British friend talks about in his runaway political discussions.

By the way, he also has his fair say about the "yanks", and our constant intrusions and arrogance with international affairs. Which I mildly defend, because I am a home-grown American... but sometimes listening to what other countries see from each other, really gathers my interest.

The UK-EU relationship is a huge buzzing bee in his bullhorn though. He really likes his country of complainers... he was also telling me about Scotland wanting independence. Which was pretty crazy to hear about.

[killer]

Some people consider the EU anathema, some consider it works well. It is worth looking at both sides from an unbiased start.

Driving laws and how one qualifies to drive are being standardised across the EU. In general this means tightening up on the skills required to be demonstrated before anyone can obtain a full licence. I prefer it that way. It has reduced accidents within the EU.

[A31]

Driving laws and how one qualifies to drive are being standardised across the EU. In general this means tightening up on the skills required to be demonstrated before anyone can obtain a full licence. I prefer it that way. It has reduced accidents within the EU.

Whilst on the topic of accidents on the roads, I think it should also be remembered that elderly drivers are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than new drivers. There's all kinds of tests 17 year olds go through to get their licenses in the UK (that'll be me later on this year), but I also think that once you get to about 70 you should also be going through tests to ensure that you're still fit to drive! Not only are you putting your own life at risk by driving when you're not in the position to, but also the lives of the occupants in the car and other road users.

[ajkula66]

Whilst on the topic of accidents on the roads, I think it should also be remembered that elderly drivers are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than new drivers.

Indeed. When matched with a cell phone, things get progressively worse. Not kidding and have scars all over my left elbow to prove it.

There's all kinds of tests 17 year olds go through to get their licenses in the UK (that'll be me later on this year), but I also think that once you get to about 70 you should also be going through tests to ensure that you're still fit to drive! Not only are you putting your own life at risk by driving when you're not in the position to, but also the lives of the occupants in the car and other road users.

No argument from me on that one.

My late father - who could've very well afforded a car at most points in his short life - had always said that he was too absent-minded to ever contemplate driving any type of vehicle. Not because he was my Dad, but not too many people show that level of honesty when it comes to recognizing their own shortcomings nowadays...which opens up numerous other topics for other threads...

Having survived several serious crashes over the past three decades - without a single one of them being my own fault - and having held licenses in three different countries, I'll state that U.S. drivers are *by far* the worst ones I've ever come across...and that's unlikely to change anytime soon...

[RealBlackStuff]

I'll state that U.S. drivers are *by far* the worst ones I've ever come across...and that's unlikely to change anytime soon...

+1

[Medessec]

I really need to go to a foreign country.

I'm going to remain neutral on the old-people driving issue... I'm not sure if there should be a rigorous test or horrible bureaucratic system applied, because I know several people who are very old, but can still drive... my grandparents being one. They're well into their 70s now. That, and they actually have a level of discretion when it comes to driving- my grandma has stopped driving ever since her vision has been worsening. My Grandpa loves driving, but I'm pretty sure if his neck gets worse (he's having to wear a neck cushion) he might stop too.

Older people who have that irresponsible arrogance, where they simply cannot give up their license or ability to drive, are a danger and there should be something done... but it's really unsettling to come up with a solution that affects more responsible people.


Also- young ladies on their cellphones in the cars, are by far the worst danger here in Chico. I remember seeing one in the parking structure, she was on her phone with a friend and her car creeped into another car parked at the edge of the second floor, and bent the bumper out of shape. She reversed, and pulled away. Without leaving a note or anything. I was absolutely stunned. But stuff like that is commonplace around here. And it's that lack of discipline that turns those irresponsible young drivers into horrible older drivers, which accounts for the terrible driving standard that the US has.

[killer]

When I learnt to drive the only distractions inside most cars were a heater and a radio.

My most recent car has the lot. It has air con, a computer, and a multi-media interface comprising; sat nav, bluetooth mobile phone, SD card player, iPod or MP3 player, CD player, and a multiband radio including DAB.

There are so many things to play with now that driving is almost secondary.

[Saucey]

I think touch interfaces helped increase texting and driving accidents rise up.
I used to be able to send a message with a number pad or slide out keyboard effortlessly while driving. I'd glance at the message and almost no errors ever! But now because of touch phones, it is not as easy as it used to be. Its difficult to know where the hand is at while typing, like using a new PC keyboard in the dark without having the 'bumps' on keys f and j...

I still like control knobs and buttons on my center console, I dislike touch interfaces in cars, I find it stupid that Google Glass is illegal to drive with but having a screen display is OK...
I might be open to the idea of a car with that sort of center console, so long as I can still use volume buttons and air con controls when the unit decides to break on me.

[sir_synthsalot]

Having survived several serious crashes over the past three decades - without a single one of them being my own fault - and having held licenses in three different countries, I'll state that U.S. drivers are *by far* the worst ones I've ever come across...and that's unlikely to change anytime soon...

Have you been to eastern Europe? Driving in the US is many times safer driving in a country like Poland, even though it's a part of the EU and the license test is more difficult.

People generally drive like lunatics. Speed limits not enforced very much, the roads are narrow and often in poor shape. The license test isn't everything. The overall driving culture matters even more IMO.

[ajkula66]

Have you been to eastern Europe?

I was born in Eastern Europe and have driven throughout it before and after The Fall of The Wall...

Driving in the US is many times safer driving in a country like Poland, even though it's a part of the EU and the license test is more difficult.

Haven't been to Poland since the early 90s but I really don't believe that the entire country has gone insane over the course of two decades.

People generally drive like lunatics.

That's an extremely common misconception amongst the North American drivers.

Speed limits not enforced very much,

The best speed limits are the ones that enforce themselves...IMO, that is...Autobahn and Strada Del Sol come to mind...

the roads are narrow and often in poor shape.

As are many throughout U.S....come to NEPA for a week and let me give you a guided tour...

The license test isn't everything.

Agreed.

The overall driving culture matters even more IMO.

Which doesn't exist in the U.S. to begin with...so we're back to square one...

[Medessec]

The best speed limits are the ones that enforce themselves...IMO, that is...Autobahn and Strada Del Sol come to mind...

I get this drift everywhere I've driven...

All the time I've lived here in California, people usually drive up to 75-80 MPH in the fast lane, despite the 65 MPH or 70(in some rare stretches) MPH speed limit. People generally slow down if the conditions are worse(rainy, slushy, fog). The CHP are pretty reasonable about pulling you over, I believe I mentioned in this topic I was pulled over once for going a bit too fast, and after showing my documents and explaining the situation, he sent me on my way. I drove down a stretch of 3-lane highway in Ohio once, from Sylvania(little bit off of Lake Erie) to Findlay(a small town in the south bit of Ohio) and it's immediately apparent no one there drives nearly as fast as everyone does in Cali. They follow the speed limits there (usually 70) with a vice.

As for the lowbrow impression of American drivers, I see there's a few types of drivers... primarily, there are those who know what they're doing or just enjoy driving and cars... on the road, they're courteous, aware, and very attentive. The ones that AREN'T, are those who don't care about cars, or driving. They just want the privilege to get from A to B a little bit faster than public transit, biking, and walking. Which is fair enough... because the car is pretty much the most feasible manner of transport in America. But because our Driver's Ed and License Test can be passed even by an imbecile(slight exaggeration, not meaning to insult anyone...), these people can storm onto the roads by the hundreds. Driving doesn't interest them, so they don't put much thought or brain power into their driving. I know it's arrogance and hate on my part, but I think these sort of people really shouldn't be allowed to drive. And I think a more European driving regiment would be a partial solution, because it makes it much more difficult and less possible for those who just don't care to get their license.

And like I mentioned before, teaching kids the extremity of the car much earlier in their childhood is a great way to put it in their minds just how important proper driving is. There was an Indoor Kart Racing facility in my local area for a few years, and when I was 13 I took a kart driving seminar and got a youth's kart card to race there. The youth kart had a 5HP Honda engine in contrast to the 8HP found on the adult karts, so it was slower... but I learned that the kart, even though it was nowhere near the scale and bulk of a car, was still a formidable and extremely dangerous piece of equipment.