X61s is SLOW... [long: sorry]

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SzDoc · #1 Post by **SzDoc** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:34 pm

So, I bought an X61s as an upgrade to my old venerable X31. I am a doc and an update to my medical records software is said to run better in a dual core environment. The machine is XP SP2/2G RAM/120 (?) HD.

And, it's a slug...

I made the mistake of installing a bunch of my software before I decided to give up on Norton. It was great in the day. I currently use Trend and ZA on various other machines. I had the requisite problems ripping NIS out by the roots, even using the uninstall tools, editing the registry, etc. This eliminated a hang at the shutdown "saving your settings" screen. Now, it takes about 90 seconds at the final shutdown screen, but does finally shut down.

I don't need R&R. I uninstalled it. That seemed to help modestly. I disabled but did not uninstall the security chip software.

It is still a solid 90 seconds from the boot password to the windows login. Add another 2-3 minutes to get to a stable desktop. This is perhaps 3 times as long as my X31, which is slower and has less memory.

I tried a bootvis scan. I can't get it to tell me if there are any driver delays.

I did the verbose registry edit for boot up: It does appear that one of the connection manager apps takes about 15 seconds to load.

I have maybe 10 hours in installing my primary software on this box, and I haven't even gotten to my medical records programs yet. I DON'T want to reformat and start over if I can avoid it.

I've looked over these boards in detail, and have already done much of what is recommended, or find same does not apply to me.

Any other suggestions?

I need to get this box into service. I need to not spend countless more hours doing so: I have work to do and have already burned 2 weekend days when I should have been doing job-related tasks.

Is there something easy and/or fundamental which I have missed? As they say on the ad: "Somebody help me."

Thanks much.

EOMtp · #2 Post by **EOMtp** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:59 pm

One must start with the objective reality that under no circumstances is any X61s slower than any comparably-configured x31. Given that, the only conclusion is that the software on the X61s is different than the software on the X31. (Software in this context refers to operating system and applications, not just applications.)

Whether it is Windows XP vs. 2000/Windows 98SE, or the new application software that you are running, your complaint rests with the software, not the hardware. One condition is guaranteed: whatever the speed of the X61s, the identical operating system and applications software on the X31 (if they would run on that platform in the first place) would execute noticeably slower.

Still, the above is cold comfort for you. Fortunately, there may be one easy and simple thing you can do to speed up the X61s palpably: install a fast 7200RPM drive. I suspect that the 120GB drive you have on the X61s is not 7200RPM. Assuming that you have already pruned the X61s of unnecessary/unwanted software, the quickest and surest way to gain increased speed in your case is to replace the hard drive with a Hitachi 7K200 (100GB to 200GB/7200RPM), the fastest notebook drives available today. See below:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... 00&x=0&y=0
Good luck!

#3 Post by **GomJabbar** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:15 pm

If you have CSS (Client Security Solution) installed, that has been reported to cause significant delays. You can uninstall CSS and still use your Fingerprint Reader. You may have to install the Fingerprint Reader software by itself. I do not have a Fingerprint Reader, so my knowledge of it is limited.
ThinkVantage Fingerprint Software 5.6

You should probably run the Norton Removal Tool to make sure you got rid of all traces of Norton AV.
Download and run the Norton Removal Tool

If you don't need Access Connections, you could uninstall that and let Windows manage your wireless and wired connections.

There is something called the UPHClean service from Microsoft, which can speed up slow shutdowns.
Troubleshooting profile unload issues

Finally I suggest you create a System Restore Point, then run a registry cleaner program.

SzDoc · #4 Post by **SzDoc** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:29 pm

EOMtp: Both boxes are XP SP2. Clearly the X61 should be faster: That's the point. Equally clearly it's software and services which are dragging it down. That is the area for which I was looking for guidance. I am trying to figure out exactly what constitutes unnecessary and/or unwanted software. I'm going to stick with the 5400 drive to attempt to maximize battery life, which is already less. Whacking out drivers and ThinkClutter, however, I am most amenable to doing. Thanks for your observations.

NB: FWIW, drive churning during boot is less than continuous: A faster drive would probably help somewhat, but drive access times are seemingly not the only problem.

GomJabbar: Your post reminds me that I left some items out of the post. Already did the User Hive clean utility: No real change.

Did the norton uninstall tool. Several times. A review of system and application logs suggests there are lurking fragments remaining.

My box doesn't have a fingerprint reader. I disabled the CSS chip in the Access setup routines, but did not actually remove the software.

I have been reluctant to uninstall access connections. I fear I may need it in future. But, clearly that's the next step.

Thanks much to both of you. I am at least releived I didn't miss something really basic or stupid. I haven't written code for many years, but I'm scarcely a novice at end user computing. This box has been frustrating and vexing.

EOMtp · #5 Post by **EOMtp** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:10 pm

Two more items you may wish to investigate:
1) There may be a pathology at play which manifests itself rarely and presents with the symptoms you describe. Windows may be having difficulty obtaining an IP address via DHCP at boot time and keeps trying for several minutes before it succeeds. Use a wired Ethernet connection and see if the startup is faster. First, however, go to Start/Settings/double-click Network Connections/Advanced/Advanced Settings and move the wired connection to the top of the list of Connections.

2) ZoneAlarm, if newer than Version 5.x, may be the cause of the slow startup. Sometimes it interacts abnormally with the operating system and causes the delays you describe. You can't just disable it; you must uninstall it in order to know if the startup is faster without it.

No need to waste time investigating Access Connections; it is not the cause of the slowness you described.

You may wish to continue with the 5400RPM, but know that battery life consideration is not one of the reasons you should do so, since the Hitachi 7K200 drives most likely draw equal or less power than the 5400RPM drive you have.

mazzer · #6 Post by **mazzer** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:18 pm

EOMtp wrote:Windows may be having difficulty obtaining an IP address via DHCP at boot time and keeps trying for several minutes before it succeeds. Use a wired Ethernet connection and see if the startup is faster.

I've seen this a significant delay on startup time before. A more direct solution is to manually assign an IP address.

#7 Post by **GomJabbar** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:28 pm

EOMtp wrote:Two more items you may wish to investigate:
1) There may be a pathology at play...

<snip>

No need to waste time investigating Access Connections; it is not the cause of the slowness you described.

I would agree that normally Access Connections does not slow down a machine. However sometimes it is linked to the pathology of #1. Additionally, some users have also reported 100% CPU usage using Access Connections with some antivirus software installed. I have not noticed this myself.

You do not need to fear of removing Access Connections. The latest version is always available for download (free). In addition, you should have the original installation program in one of your folders on the hard drive. On my T42 it is at C:\IBMTOOLS\drivers\CONWIZ\SETUP.EXE. You can uninstall Access Connections and still keep your profiles. You are asked this when you go to uninstall Access Connections.

You might want to check your power scheme settings. Choose Maximum CPU for best performance. System Information in Windows will report what speed the CPU is operating at.

I notice the latest BIOS update might help.

Lenovo wrote:Version 7NET25WW (1.06)
(Fix) The computer with Intel Turbo Memory Controller may hang displaying a Blue screen when it wakes up from hibernation mode. (BIOS)
(Fix) System performance sometimes gets lower when "SATA Controller Mode Option" is set to "AHCI" in BIOS Setup Utility. (BIOS)

#8 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:16 am

SzDoc wrote:My box doesn't have a fingerprint reader. I disabled the CSS chip in the Access setup routines, but did not actually remove the software.

I think actually uninstalling the CSS software would be a good bet at this point. Too many people have seen significant slowdowns from it so if you don't need it, don't use it. (I don't have CSS on my X61, either.)

SzDoc · #9 Post by **SzDoc** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:06 am

EOMtp: I AM using a wired connection. My use of wireless is rare. However, when I need it, I need it. Also, I tried a cold boot BEFORE installing ZA (I have a robust security device at the front end of my network). It was certainly faster, but still 2-3 times slower than my old notebook even with its virus/spyware software turned on. ZA is a factor. But, it's not the primary factor.

And, my old X31 has a 5400 RPM drive, I think. I just want the machine with the much faster processor and more memory to not take longer than perhaps 50% longer to boot. And, I don't want to take the time to mess with drive replacement. Especially on a new machine which is putatively still covered by a warranty.

GomJabbar: CPU speed is already set to maximum for the AC powered configuration: One of the first things I do when setting up a new notebook is craft a custom power configuration.

I already have the 1.06 BIOS. Did that early on in this build.

Will try to uninstall CSS and access connections if I have time after work today.

Thanks again to all.

mazzer · #10 Post by **mazzer** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:48 am

During startup, are there any long periods where there is no hard disk activity? (Watch the LED.) This is often typical of DHCP delays, which can affect both wired and wireless connections. If so, assign the connection a static IP address within the same subnet as your router/modem.

scrawledinwax · #11 Post by **scrawledinwax** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:03 pm

Sorry, this is probably a very silly question, but what does CSS actually do? I mean that other software packages wouldn't?

What I mean is - as a casual user who uses his X61 mainly for word processing and blogging, is there any reason to keep CSS installed? The boot up time on my X61 is horrendous.

SzDoc · #12 Post by **SzDoc** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:48 pm

Well, I took the day off today (had to appear on a medical radio show, but that's another story...)

Results: Uninstalling CSS helped somewhat.
Uninstalling Access Connections made a HUGE difference:

After each uninstall, I cleaned out the prefetch folder and rebooted a couple of times.

Boot PW to windows PW: 30 seconds
Windows PW to last tray icon: About another 30 seconds.

MUCH better. Total boot time now about 1/3 of what it was.

2 remaining issues:

1. 45 seconds to shutdown.

Likely related to

2. Error in app events: Windows saved registry while an application...still using the registry during logoff...

Will problems never cease...

Thanks to all.

roblim · #13 Post by **roblim** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:33 pm

I went from an x32 to an x61s. To optimize the x61s for best possible performance I'd recommend getting a 7200 rpm drive and starting fresh. Dell has some for $116. A bargain for a 160 GB drive. Partition it into two partitions. keep windows on partition 1 and your data on partition 2.

I put that in, and then installed a slipstreamed Windows XP Pro. Download drivers from the driver matrix. You only need: audio, video, ethernet, wireless, hotkey support, power management, trackpoint, intel chipset, and modem (this may have been auto installed in XPSP2 so possibly unnecessary). that's it. avoid the other junk and be amazed at how fast your system runs.

Also, use drive imaging software (Norton Ghost) to troubleshoot your slowdowns. Create an image right after installing windows, another one after you install your drivers, and then finally one after you install your programs. You can save those images on the second partition. It's the fastest way to create a drive image and restoring your Windows partition takes like 5 minutes. If something slows your system down go back to a clean image and start over again. No big deal. Uninstalling apps and programs is usually not thorough and orphaned files can slow down your system, using images is much better. I htink in the long run using drive imaging software will save you a lot of time esp. if you get hit with a virus and need to reinstall windows. 5 minutes instead of an entire day.

SzDoc · #14 Post by **SzDoc** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:45 pm

Wish I had known this before 15 hours of installing apps. Too late now...

I always partition my drives. Did that straight out of the box. I'm sort of old school on this: Been doing it since the late 80s.

I will probably in fact put some imaging software in place soon, but more likely Acronis. Had good luck with it in the past, and I have not had such good luck with anything Symantec in the last several years.

And this reminds me that I need to build a slipstreamed SP2 CD: Been on the to do list for a while, but haven't had the time.

All that said, I may yet back up the various drivers subdirectories to the data partition, blow out the windows partition and start over. That will be a fun way to burn an entire weekend when I need to be working...

Thanks.

proaudioguy · #15 Post by **proaudioguy** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:11 pm

Are you going to sell your X31?

SzDoc · #16 Post by **SzDoc** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:29 pm

Yes, but it's already spoken for. Sorry.

jgrobertson · #17 Post by **jgrobertson** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:06 am

You have probably tried this but you can boot to safe mode, which does not install drivers (or use the msconfig utility) and that will tell you if drivers are the problem. Then you can enable them one at a time or is some pattern of groups to isolate what it is that slows it down.

FYI, I have a T20, T30, T43P and T60P and a Thinkcenter (3.2 GHz) . All Thinkpads take about the same time to boot up and shut down. The fastest is the T60P which has Vista 64 on it and the Hitachi 7K200 200 Mbyte drive (7200 rpm). That drive made more difference that anything. CPU horsepower is not the limiting factors.

The T43P and the Thinkcenter both have CSS enabled with the encryption chip enabled and fingerprint activiated. The Thinkcenter is the fastest of all of course and has two 150 Gbyte 5" drives (SATA).

MS has admitted to putting delays into the boot process to accommodate the response time of various hardware devices. There is a lot of variability in the hardware and they design for the worst case. That and disk speed probably are the biggest factors.

The laptops have the greatest hardware limitations of course as they have the hot swap bays, sleep - wake up issues, slower drives and usually slower front side buses.

SzDoc · #18 Post by **SzDoc** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:05 pm

jgrobertson: Noted. Thanks. I am well acquainted with safe mode and clean boots. Way back in antiquity, in the original post, I indicated that the extant issue was that my old X31, which is much slower with much less memory, booted much, much faster. So, I was indeed using boot times on another Thinkpad, as opposed to one of my other boxes, as an index for comparison.

And, now that the network management stuff is gone, boot is much faster, and quite acceptable.

Have a pleasant weekend.

pau · #19 Post by **pau** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:52 am

just for curiousity...

I have an x61s with 1GB RAM and it takes something like 20 sec from pressing the power buttom to get to the log in and then 4 sec more to get to the desktop after logging in... but my OS is OpenBSD

You have a big bug called "windows", Sir

Just joking... I hope you fixed your problems

k2canezsd · #20 Post by **k2canezsd** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:44 pm

Factory Install?

SzDoc · #21 Post by **SzDoc** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:00 pm

Please elaborate.

k2canezsd · #22 Post by **k2canezsd** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:10 pm

If I were you, I would start over. You learned from your past mistakes so just restart, press F11 or the ThinkVantage blue button and restore your entire harddrive and computer back to the original factory install.

Make sure to back up all of your documents and you'll need to reinstall your important apps but it'll be well worth it.

SzDoc · #23 Post by **SzDoc** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:13 pm

Yeah. The problem is the 20+ hours I would now have to burn again to reinstall my apps.

pianowizard · #24 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:29 pm

But if you don't start over, you're stuck with a slow machine and waste 5 to 10 minutes each day waiting for the machine and applications to load.

k2canezsd · #25 Post by **k2canezsd** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:33 pm

A fresh start will do wonders for your stress...etc.

There's nothing worse than a slow machine and your machine has the potential to be a speedster.

Factory install is your only option...once Windows has a bunch of junk done to it...there's really no return since the registry is greatly affected.

SzDoc · #26 Post by **SzDoc** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:53 pm

OK. I'm considering a clean install and burning an additional 20+ hours to reinstall my apps. On top of my 80+ hour work week, it's not a pretty prospect.

So, in between working on some work-related projects today, I've looked over some old posts and I have some concerns:

Can I copy the drivers and SWTOOLS/Support subdirs to a USB key and readily restore them after a clean reinstall?

Does the recovery partition do a decent job?

Do I need R&R installed to use it?

Will the XP produce key on the machine label be sufficient?

What order do I reinstall the drivers in? [Also searched on this, and still don't have a good picture]

Where is the AHCI driver and when do I install it?

What are the other "gotchas"?

I have read the "fresh XP reinstall" thread and found it not very helpful. Also, it sounds like it applies more to a slipstream install, not a recovery install.

So, what do I need to do to make this work seamlessly?

Thanks.

#27 Post by **GomJabbar** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:34 pm

Here's a couple of links that might help.

This isn't your model, but much of it applies...
Installation instructions for Windows XP - ThinkPad T60, T60p

Langa Letter: XP's No-Reformat, Nondestructive Total-Rebuild Option

X61s is SLOW... [long: sorry]

X61s is SLOW... [long: sorry]

See below

Re: See below

Results thus far

Apprehension...

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