IBM Factory Refurbished Units - Safe to buy?

[ulrich.von.lich]

They are claimed as: overstock products (which means they are brand new!) , factory reconditioned/sealed buy IBM, with 3 yrs mack warranty, duplicated orders & canceled orders (which means they are brand new??), returned by customers (which IMO possibly contain some defects like dead pixels), S claim, L claim...


What are they?

Has someone ever bought one of those? Happy or Unhappy? Its cosmetic condition? Possible flaws? Gambling?

I would like to hear your opinions

[ryengineer]

Refurbished products do not mean they are brand new:

Much of IBM equipment is sourced from excess IBM inventory, as well as lease returns from IBM Global Financing customers. Every unit is factory refurbished and tested to IBM specifications, providing optimum performance and maximum reliability. But because it can cost significantly less than new, IBM Certified Used Equipment is the perfect solution for special projects, temporary capacity, unexpected changes in a division, location moves, or any time you want IBM quality at a lower cost.

IBM Certified Used Equipment

Cosmetically, they're slightly imperfect but seldom to never sold with defective pixels, they also come with 7 days moneyback guarantee and limited warranty too. Safe to buy? my opinion, yes.

[wolfman]

IBM Global Financing used to sell models like this on eBay directly and i bought an A21m from them - that was 6-7 years ago and it's still working fine. I'd have no reservations getting another if the price was right...Good luck.

[losmeme]

I purchased an X31 from the IBM Refurb site last year. Amazing machine. It came with what I consider a brand new LCD screen, a new HDD and keyboard. I am so pleased I have ordered a T42p from the site.

In terms of used or "refurbed" machines, you can't get any better IMO. They may cost slightly more than what you can pick up off of eBay, but they do come with the 90 day warranty, 7-day return policy, and they have been professionally rebuilt. Can't always find that on eBay.

[wolfman]

Yes, I agree you can't always get that on eBay sales and you should get them direct from IBM.

However, you used to be able to get those same features (7 day return policy, I actually got a 6 month warranty, etc) because IBM used to have an eBay store and sold them directly through eBay, but they no longer do that. If I'm remembering correctly it was IBM's Global Financing unit that did the sales through eBay.

[Harryc]

There is still an outfit on EBay where you can get basically the same deal (slightly more expensive) on S-Claims.

http://stores.ebay.com/ThinkPadWorld

Here's an X31, for example -

S-Claim X31 on EBay

I am in no way affiliated with ThinkPadWorld. I am just posting this information to let you know that it exists.

[Puppy]

I got refubrished X31 via usanotebook (there was a paper from IBM so I guess it is the same source). It is in perfect condition. New keyboard, new LED indicators panels, no major pressure marks on display, no scratches, one dead pixel. There is minor scratch on the top lid but you wouldn't notice it unless looking very close on it. Also inside it looks like a new machine, no dust etc. Fan is very silent and hardly turns on. Battery has 90% of original capacity (4.5 hours). 6 months warranty.

[ulrich.von.lich]

Can't find any machines on IBM refurb site in France. If I buy them from eBay I'd probably not be able to return them later.

Actually I was thinking of purchasing a refurbished R50p from usanotebook. However it'd be nasty if I find dead pixels on the screen. I guess I'll have the risk anyway even if I buy a brand new one.

S claim and L claim are what I learned from ThinkPadWorld. According to him, L claim means close to (sometimes is) brand new and S claim means excellent condition. It seems old machines are often S claims. He's selling a factory sealed A31p and it's almost 2008

[ryengineer]

Can't find any machines on IBM refurb site in France.......snip

Call 0-810-835-426 to check availability.

[ajkula66]

Factory sealed could have been sealed three years ago...and being where you are, I'd be VERY skeptical about MACK warranties.

BTW, around here IBM still occasionally offers refurbished T23s, so a refurbished A31p is not out of question.

Having read about your not-so-stellar experiences with eBay, I would have imagined that you would've given up the very idea by now...

Whatever you want to buy, that's ThinkPad-related, you're better off buying it on this forum...that's, of course, just my $0.02...

[Johan]

@ Ulrich:

You don’t explicit state it, but am I correct in assuming that what you are referring to are ThinkPad’s sold by e.g. IBMfactoryoutlet or ThinkPad World at eBay (which, by the way, sell much cheaper at ThinkPad World homepage)? You may perhaps already know it, but IBM has a similar outlet of their own - at Refurbished PCs, Notebooks, Laptops, PCs Certified by IBM where you will often find the very same models which pops up at the two aforementioned stores. For some reason that I however don’t understand, IBM’s refurb site (only often or rather always?) seems to sells much more expensive compared to the same models showing up simultaneously at ThinkPad World and/or IBMfactoruoutlet?! Why is this, I wonder?

Quality of IBM Factory Refurbished Equipment: Well, whichever of these stores you were thinking of (or was it perhaps USAnotebook.com you had in mind?), I am presently in the same situation, as you seem to be: I am right now very actively looking for a MINT/immaculate R50/R51 or (preferably!) a T42, which should be 15” FlexView/IPS and also have some amount of remaining original, genuine IBM warranty. I have done quite a bit of reading about refurbished and/or remanufactured ThinkPad’s sold here and there, and my overall impression is that by far the most buyers are indeed satisfied with the performance and cosmetic condition of IBM Factory Refurbished Equipment. There are also, however, user reports being of the disappointed sort, but these are absolutely far, far fewer than those who report receiving ”almost new” laptops. Try for yourself to search this forum after ”IBM Certified Used equipment” (and remember to ”Search for all terms”), and I believe that you may end up with the same impression as I.

Refurbished equipment sellers operate with a variety of ”claims” specifying the cosmetic condition of equipment. More information about e.g. L-Claim and S-Claim definitions is found in the thread eBay Seller ThinkPadWorld (see the post by ThinkPad World owner Maurice of Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:10 am). As evident from user reports the condition of ”S-Claim” products may vary, but my own dear T42p – which was bought via the Marketplace of this forum but before that (see the thread Buying a 2nd hand T42p, the post of Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:49 am); it actually came from ”ThinkPad World”, and also had an ”S-Claim”; this T42p looks brand new in each and every respect (except from the battery, which I care less about). ThinkPad World furthermore operates with a (poorer) ”4-Claim”, which is defined at their site.

Where to buy IBM Factory Refurbished Equipment? If you search this forum for "thinkpadworld" many hits will come up, where users report their experience with these sellers and also discuss the quality of ThinkPad’s purchased there. If, like you, looking for a R50p then check the ThinkPad World R50p page where a FlexView/UXGA such sells for $502 (also S-Claim). Also, ThinkPad World offers factory refurbished 15” FlexView/IPS R51’s and R50’s, and with the “S-Claim” at $ 430 and $ 421, respectively, which is perhaps not as cheap as mostly on eBay, but on the contrary here sold with some warranty and with a cosmetic state specified. While you may find cheaper deals at eBay, you most often have very poorly (and even relatively often directly erroneously!) specified machines, and maybe worse, by far most items sold via eBay are sold ”as-is” and with absolutely no rights of return. Although e.g. ThinkPad World charges a 20 % ”restocking fee” (for items returned which are returned for no technical reason) you yet have the opportunity, although loosing 20 % of your investment – which is 80 % less than wasting all your 100 % invested! This option, in my pinion, is worth paying a little extra for! ThinkPad’s bought via Refurbished PCs, Notebooks, Laptops, PCs Certified by IBM are sold ”...backed with a 7 day money back guarantee and 3 months limited warranty”. It appear that IBM does not have any restocking fee if choosing to return a functional item (at least from what I read from the conditions in fine print at Satisfaction Guaranteed).

Warranty issues! In my opinion and experience ThinkPad’s are rugged, robust, high quality, sturdy – but hardware errors may occur. Moreover, when buying used equipment in this manner, you have zero idea of how the prior user(s) has kept it and cared for it; have then been careful or the contrary? Because of this (and because of the very high costs of having a malfunctioning out-of-warranty ThinkPad being repaired, which is particularly expensive outside of the USA), I would personally not buy a used ThinkPad under these conditions without some remaining warranty. Please remember that as long as a ThinkPad is still covered under IBM warranty, the warranty an be extended at reasonably cost (many threads about that, here). If having the option NOT to, I am not seriously interested in third-party warranties offered by companies such as ”Square Trade” or ”MACK”; their reputation is both too unknown and often being mentioned with negative criticism. Because of this, resellers supplying laptops with genuine IBM warranty has a big advantage (such as IBM authorized business partners seem to be able to). Resellers even not informing at all of warranty or not has a big disadvantage.

Reputation of IBM Factory Refurbished Equipment resellers? As evident from many threads in this forum, ThinkPad World is troubled by some mixed reputation. On the other hand, if looking (with an open mind!) at their feedback score at eBay this is impressive, both in amount (amount of number of deals) and of rank. The same is the case for the feedback score at eBay of IBMfactoryoutlet. Maybe the average buyer these places are not as knowledgeable and co picky as many of us ThinkPad enthusiasts gathering here, but still – this kind of feedback speaks its own language, in my opinion. Note that brand new products will naturally not result in negative feedback about the cosmetic condition, and I have no idea of what is the percentage of new laptops sold over refurbished laptops? The third store discussed above has a much smaller amount of trade but the feedback score at eBay of USAnootebooks is also very fine.

Bottom line – conclusions and recommendations? Would I want to trade with any of the above? Yes, all of them probably except USAnootebooks which specify their products too poorly, which has no information about its cosmetic condition and which also does not state anything about remaining warranty being issued by IBM warranty or some third-party company (like Square Trade or MACK). Also, it is unclear if it is always allowed to return a working product to USAnootebooks, or they may refuse this option?

Feedbacks to the above are very welcome! I seem to be ”working myself towards” making a decision to of where to very soon get a 15” FlexView/IPS ThinkPad (preferably T42!), so all user-experience is wholehearted welcome.

Best regards,

Johan

[ajkula66]

I'm very hesitant to disagree with Johan, whose opinions I hold in very high regard, but the only place that I'd buy a refurbished IBM laptop would be IBM themselves...

Most of the people buying from the aforementioned places are clueless first-time IBM buyers who don't read the small print...

Thousands of positive feedback mean next to nothing in my modest opinion...most people are just downright scared to leave negative feedback for the fear of retalliation...

And, if someone pointed a gun to my head and said that I had to buy from one of these places, I'd go with USAnotebooks, since at least I haven't heard anything bad about them from anyone whose opinion I value...

[Billmanweh]

Does anyone have experience with laptopbroker.com?

They have a website and also do business on ebay.

[mattbiernat]

Refurbished products do not mean they are brand new:

Cosmetically, they're slightly imperfect but seldom to never sold with defective pixels, they also come with 7 days moneyback guarantee and limited warranty too. Safe to buy? my opinion, yes.

i vehmently diasgree! they are not slightly imperfect unless specified next to the model. they come in "perfect" condition. i had no scratches, all the ports, screen and keyboard were new. battery had only 73 cycles. again no external scratches or imperfections. unlike my new T60 with a melted hole in the palmrest. they really are worth the extra money and unlike new models you can return them within 7 days and no questions asked.

[ryengineer]

i vehmently diasgree!....snip

May I ask how many have you ordered from IBM? YMMV on your numbers.

[BeeJayEmm]

Does anyone have experience with laptopbroker.com?

I tried to buy a ThinkPad R60 from them last May/June. It was supposed to be a new, retail-boxed unit, although a lot of their stock is refurbs and corporate lease returns. My credit card was immediately charged and the unit was in stock, according to their web site. Then I didn't hear anything for a couple weeks. I called their phone number and left messages but never got a reply. I did get a reply to my email, something about a supply problem and quality control issues (How did that relate to a supposedly new, retail unit?). They offered options to wait for the unit in question, receive a discount on another model, or get a full refund. I requested the refund, which was finally issued a couple weeks later after more unreturned phone calls and emails.

[mattbiernat]

hehehe i knew i was going to get burned down on that comment. yeah i ordered only one but as i said no scratches.

[Johan]

As a very recent addition to the above discussion, have a look in the thread Certified Used T42p - Very disappointed where a forum member report what the title of that thread indicate... that the quality of IBM Factory Refurbished Equipment is not always first-class...

The above report leaves the potential buyer (of "used" or "refurbished" or "remanufactured" ThinkPad's) in a very difficult situation, if IBM is indeed so careless about the quality of the "refurbished" equipment they put out for sale. This is total gambling for the buyer... so why go to IBM's site at all to pay much more than what similer/better equipment can be found for e.g. at eBay or the Marketplace in this forum? This just doesn't maky any sense? Why would they (IBM) ruin their own reputation like that?? Because ThinkPad's are no longer IBM-products, but are now Lenovo, and perhaps because of that IBM has now less interest in ThinkPad's? I just don't get it...

Best regards,

Johan

[grinder_z20]

At the moment I'm getting a "S-Class claim" X31 from thinkpadworld.com. My agent in the USA has received the package and claims that it looks like new The warranty is expired, and no 90 days for refurbished equipment either. There is still a day or two before sending the package to me, but I'd rather take it.

[BillMorrow]

Just FWIW IRT "refurbished thinkpads" from IBM..

AFAIK, they ALWAYS look like new and are as perfect as IBM can make them..

the other yahoos (with apologies to YAHOO) who resell "refurbished" are most likely reselling off lease well used and sometimes abused thinkpads that they have dusted off verified that they boot and stuff back in a carton..

i would always trust IBM 100% and would trust the other yahoos the inverse of my trust in IBM, i.e. 0 (zero) %..

when dealing with yahoos, caveat emptor or let the buyer beware..

my 2 cents worth..

p.s.
if anyone from outside the USA wants to buy, pay for and ship a thinkpad here, i will ship it to them for a fee of $100 + the shipping cost..
as long as i don't have to open the box or do anything other than trans-ship..

[grinder_z20]

Anyway, "yahoos" always have a range of models in stock and the price is good unless they had sold the very item several times to different people and accepted returns

I had to be as much closer to 400$ because of the Russian customs tax threshold, and I didn't trust all those hitechassets's, who openly admit to sell off-lease thinkpads. Is there no difference between what tpworld and cheaper ebay yahoos sell?

BTW, how should I check if the 90-day warranty is available?

Thanks for offering shipment, that's nice for a 1000+$ price