Ridiculous Thinkpad tech call, thoughts?

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CeNG · #1 Post by **CeNG** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:20 pm

I just got off the phone with Thinkpad tech support in Atlanta and I have to say that this is the first time I've had a bad experience with Thinkpad support (going on 8 years of owning Thinkpads).

Now, a bit of background. I purchased my T61P as a desktop replacement for graphics work. It's got 3gb ram and the Duo Core 7500. Lenovo touts the T61p as the professional workhorse and the Quadro FX 570m is certainly meant for graphics/3d applications (I know that it isn't meant as a gaming card).

That being said, let's discuss the problems I'm having. My problems are that my screen is way too blue, my sound crackles randomly, and lately the laptop has been freezing in the middle of gaming and playing dvds.

I understand that the blue screen is a sticky subject as most people probably won't notice the difference and it certainly won't produce any sort of errors that will show up via PC Doctor, which is apparently Lenovo's first line of defense when feeding their customers a load of crap.

The truth is that the blues and purples aren't displayed accurately via the T61p's LCD. They display fine when video is piped to an external monitor. I do graphics related work for a living and so I'm no stranger to calibrating monitors. I have a Spyder colorimeter and other various software apps for tweaking color via gamma and other settings. I've been messing with ICM profiles for the 2 months since I received the laptop and I've been unable to come up with an acceptable profile. This leads me to believe that it's really just a crappy LCD. However explaining this to the support person on the phone was like talking to a wall. She kept telling me that there was nothing wrong with my video card since PC Doctor was reporting no errors. And that if I wanted to replace the LCD it was going to cost me $700. Apparently replacing the LCD is not covered under warranty unless you get a tech support person who actually understands what you're talking about? She also told me that if I wanted better color that I should invest in an external video card and that this wasn't what the T61p was intended for. I tried to explain nicely that that was exactly what the T61p was intended for. But she would have none of it.

Next up the crackling sound. Not much I can do here, no alternate drivers, no sound profiles to mess with. I was instructed to turn off the wireless radio and see if that solved the problem. I generally have it off when gaming or watching DVDs, when the sound crackling occurs, and so I told the tech that that wasn't the problem. And since no errors were showing up on PC Doctor then obviously everything was fine!

And finally, the freezing. It seems to happen during intensive cpu/ram usage, specifically when gaming, but I've tried all three versions of the official Nvidia drivers, plus some of the video2go drivers and am actually on my third factory restore and I've yet to pinpoint what the heck might be going on. Again, PC Doctor isn't reporting any cpu/memory/video issues or any issues at all whatsover. The tech's response to this was really priceless. She told me that if there are no errors then obviously I'm just using too much memory. I bought the top of the line professional desktop replacement Thinkpad, with 3gb of ram and somehow I'm using too much memory. "Your software is the issue" were her exact words. When gaming, my system ram usage is about 25%, and my cpu usage is about 65%. When doing graphics work my ram usage can easily jump up to 50% but cpu usage is much lower, usually 10% or less unless I'm applying changes to a huge image or rendering something.

What I had basically hoped to achieve via this tech support call was a replacement LCD that hopefully wasn't quite so blue, and some tech reseating various hardware components and possibly replacing my sound card or at the least making sure the cables weren't bad. What I got was a tech person being extremely condescending and the usual box being overnighted to me. Though to tell you the truth I'm a bit worried about what's going to happen when the depot reads the notes on my support call from the tech I spoke with.

Does anyone have an advice regarding dealing with Thinkpad support about these issues? Should I be calling some other number to get ahold of someone with a brain? Should I just resign myself to having these issues which, because they aren't producing errors, are going to be unresolvable?

Frustrated...

#2 Post by **erik** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:11 pm

lenovo is aware of T61p owners having issues with gaming and are working on a solution. the most recent thread covering it is here: any games that work with T61p/570m???

CeNG wrote:The truth is that the blues and purples aren't displayed accurately via the T61p's LCD. They display fine when video is piped to an external monitor. I do graphics related work for a living and so I'm no stranger to calibrating monitors. I have a Spyder colorimeter and other various software apps for tweaking color via gamma and other settings. I've been messing with ICM profiles for the 2 months since I received the laptop and I've been unable to come up with an acceptable profile. This leads me to believe that it's really just a crappy LCD.

what OS are you using? i've found vista's color management to be a major PITA when using calibrated ICC profiles.

regarding the display being blue, unfortunately a replacement won't help whatsoever. this is a hardware issue and the fault of the display manufacturer. if you're heavy into graphic design then you shouldn't be working solely from a 6-bit laptop display (even if it's an IPS panel) unless traveling. an 8-bit 92% gamut desktop display is mandatory for color-critical work.

Truthfinder · #3 Post by **Truthfinder** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:58 pm

One would think that after spending @XYZ on a top of the line ThinkPad, the end buyer should not have to deal with an crapy materials used by the LCD suppliers.

Lenov SHOULD make good on locating another compnany to manufacture their LCDs and than recall any that customers are having issues with. Spending 2K on a laptop should justify getting a quality peice of equiptment, not a run of the mill pc of junk.

Additionally, Lenovo should better train their tech people, so at the very least they know just a bit more than the customer on the other end of the line.

From all I've been reading, the T-61 is not what its cracked up to be. Almost as good as Vista !

My 2 cents

#4 Post by **JaneL** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:40 pm

CeNG wrote:Does anyone have an advice regarding dealing with Thinkpad support about these issues? Should I be calling some other number to get ahold of someone with a brain? Should I just resign myself to having these issues which, because they aren't producing errors, are going to be unresolvable?

You could report it in Mr. Shumpert's thread at http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=51968

whizkid · #5 Post by **whizkid** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:44 pm

The phone techs are of varied quality. They are all told to read the same scripts and decision trees.

Repair technicians (who you will likely never talk to) are better, but they are also trained to replace parts until the machine works.

They really can't afford to have engineers even diagnose the machines let alone repair them, although I wish they could.

Include your own notes in the box for the repair tech. Do not include the hard drive unless... no just don't. Nor battery nor optical drive nor AC adapter. Record how much memory is in it on your note.

And as sad as it is, ThinkPads are meant for business users, meaning spreadsheets and Word docs. Good LCD panels eat into margins or increase prices.

Aren't you graphics types supposed to buy Macs? :)

CeNG · #6 Post by **CeNG** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:11 pm

erik wrote:regarding the display being blue, unfortunately a replacement won't help whatsoever. this is a hardware issue and the fault of the display manufacturer. if you're heavy into graphic design then you shouldn't be working solely from a 6-bit laptop display (even if it's an IPS panel) unless traveling. an 8-bit 92% gamut desktop display is mandatory for color-critical work.

So every LCD display for the T61p has this problem? That's really sad considering they tout it as a graphics machine. What's the point of sticking a fancy Quadro card in it if the LCD is crap? And I do have an external monitor which I use as my primary display most of the time but it would be nice when traveling or not at home to be able to get some work done on my laptop without worrying about the horrifying color reproduction on the internal screen. :/

Oh, and I'm using XP.

whizkid wrote:The phone techs are of varied quality. They are all told to read the same scripts and decision trees.

Repair technicians (who you will likely never talk to) are better, but they are also trained to replace parts until the machine works.

They really can't afford to have engineers even diagnose the machines let alone repair them, although I wish they could.

Include your own notes in the box for the repair tech. Do not include the hard drive unless... no just don't. Nor battery nor optical drive nor AC adapter. Record how much memory is in it on your note.

And as sad as it is, ThinkPads are meant for business users, meaning spreadsheets and Word docs. Good LCD panels eat into margins or increase prices.

Aren't you graphics types supposed to buy Macs?

Up until now I've had consistently fabulous phone and depot support for my Thinkpads which is one of the major reasons I've been a Thinkpad consumer for as long as I have.

And I'm going to ignore the Mac bait.

So if I don't include the hdd, etc, will that pose any problem or delay with the repair tech trying to reproduce my problems? Or would it not matter regardless?

#7 Post by **carbon_unit** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:26 pm

CeNG wrote: So if I don't include the hdd, etc, will that pose any problem or delay with the repair tech trying to reproduce my problems? Or would it not matter regardless?

It won't matter.
If you do include the HDD there is a chance they may re-image it and you would lose any data on it. The same with memory, there is a chance that they could deem the memory faulty and any non-stock memory may be discarded/misplaced and definitely not be replaced. If the battery and power supply are fine there is no reason to send them. They are just one more thing to get accidentally misplaced.

#8 Post by **erik** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:28 pm

CeNG wrote:So every LCD display for the T61p has this problem? That's really sad considering they tout it as a graphics machine. What's the point of sticking a fancy Quadro card in it if the LCD is crap? And I do have an external monitor which I use as my primary display most of the time but it would be nice when traveling or not at home to be able to get some work done on my laptop without worrying about the horrifying color reproduction on the internal screen. :/

sadly the IPS panels were the last high-quality screens the thinkpad received. i've used IPS displays since they were released to market and will say that the WUXGA panel in my T61p isn't that bad after calibration. i'm a graphic designer and photographer so i know this issue/debate all too well. i've since decided to give up the battle as i know that lenovo is aware of our concerns and improved panels are around the corner. unfortunately we're at a transition period since IPS display manufacturers are scarce right now.

XP plays well with calibrated ICC profiles in my experience. under 2003 i had excellent luck with my eye-one display2 photo with all the stuff calibrate my displays, cameras, and printers. without more info on your calibration issues it's tough for me to know what's going on with your setup.

Truthfinder · #9 Post by **Truthfinder** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:46 pm

"unfortunately we're at a transition period since IPS display manufacturers are scarce right now."

My thought regarding the above statement is that money is scare right now and if Lenovo is so well aware of the display problems, why don't they either pull the product or deeply discount the units they are using these inferior panels in !

If we are to accept units that don't live up to the IBM quality controls of the past, why not just purchase a HP or Compaq unit for a 3rd the cost. At least we would not have any expectations of purchasing of a high end Laptop.

I own a T60, minus the P and paid substantually less for it, thus I don't expect to have a display such as is advertised in the P series.
If the P display is really no better, what are customers paying for? I hope not just a slightly better graphics card. There should be a whole lot more in a unit that advertised as a work-station replacement as far as I'm concerned.........

Just my 2 cents worth.

#10 Post by **ryengineer** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:29 pm

No doubt, you had an abysmal experience however isn't the account from one call you stated?

CeNG · #11 Post by **CeNG** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:17 pm

Thank you for all the replies, I appreciate the advice and opinions.

carbon_unit wrote:It won't matter.
If you do include the HDD there is a chance they may re-image it and you would lose any data on it. The same with memory, there is a chance that they could deem the memory faulty and any non-stock memory may be discarded/misplaced and definitely not be replaced. If the battery and power supply are fine there is no reason to send them. They are just one more thing to get accidentally misplaced.

Well the 3gb of memory is stock so I'm not worried about that. In the past I'd always just backed up my hdd and sent it along but if they don't really need it then I won't go to the trouble.

erik wrote:XP plays well with calibrated ICC profiles in my experience. under 2003 i had excellent luck with my eye-one display2 photo with all the stuff calibrate my displays, cameras, and printers. without more info on your calibration issues it's tough for me to know what's going on with your setup.

I didn't have issues with the profiles, you're correct XP does play well with them. The issue was more than I'd used my Spyder Colorimeter and created a bunch of different profiles to test out and none of them really fixed the issue. Purples are way too blue so I assumed the issue was a result of a combination of too much blue and not enough red. But after extensive profile creation and tweaking the color issue remains. This LCD is the first display that I've seen that did not benefit from Spyder calibration, or at least did not benefit noticably. I also manually tweaked the gamma via the nVidia control panel and used a couple of other software based color correction apps (QuickGamma and Monitor Calibration Wizard) but to no avail.

Truthfinder wrote:There should be a whole lot more in a unit that advertised as a work-station replacement as far as I'm concerned.........

Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree!

ryengineer wrote:No doubt, you had an abysmal experience however isn't the account from one call you stated?

Yes, the call itself was an anomaly. I haven't had horrible support in the past so I'm going to chalk this up to bad luck and see how things go in the future.

asianboyztn · #12 Post by **asianboyztn** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:30 pm

carbon_unit wrote:
CeNG wrote: So if I don't include the hdd, etc, will that pose any problem or delay with the repair tech trying to reproduce my problems? Or would it not matter regardless?
It won't matter.
If you do include the HDD there is a chance they may re-image it and you would lose any data on it. The same with memory, there is a chance that they could deem the memory faulty and any non-stock memory may be discarded/misplaced and definitely not be replaced. If the battery and power supply are fine there is no reason to send them. They are just one more thing to get accidentally misplaced.

not really, it's depend what's the problem you sending it for, like if you sent your laptop in for bluescreen (which is common problems) but you didnt sent in your HDD and memory, how are you suppose repair tech do to diag your laptop? in that care it's will delay if they're can not duplicate the problem (cust serv reps will contact you back and forward...etc). If you scare they will replace or reimage you hdd, so whenever IBM sent you a box they will included a piece of paper, you can just check NO to replace or reimage HDD, so they wont do anything to it.

CeNG · #13 Post by **CeNG** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:09 pm

Update:

Laptop arrived at the depot and had been sitting there since 9am this morning not being worked on because the technicians "needed more information" about the problems. But no one called me. I found this out by checking the Ezserve website and then calling them.

I was told that the technicians don't read any additional notes that are included, they only go by what the phone support technician writes up and obviously my support technician wasn't on the ball so apparently they had no idea what was wrong with my laptop even though I typed up a detailed description. The sheet that is included with the Ezserv box says "use the back of this sheet for additional notes" but the back of that sheet is actually completely taken up by instructions on how to pack the laptop into the box. So, apparently, they say you can leave notes for the repair technicians, but in actuality, you can't, because they ignore any additional sheets of paper with possibly important bits of information on them.

I'm supposed to be contacted by a repair technician for more information, we'll see if this person is any better than the previous few I've dealt with in the last 3 days.

Truthfinder · #14 Post by **Truthfinder** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:04 pm

I think the time is nearing where people will begin to move on to other companies for their laptop / notebook needs.

Why pay more for a so called high end product and so call great tech support when this no longer exists.......

I have owned several ThinkPads, with my current unit being a T60. As it stands now from all I've been reading, I think this will be my last ThinkPad..... (If Lenovo) doesn't change its way of doing business.
I could buy an HP, Dell, or Compaq for much less for my aggravation.

Hopefully someone from Lenovo is listening in and will report our concerns............
My 2 cents

#15 Post by **JaneL** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:31 pm

Truthfinder wrote:Hopefully someone from Lenovo is listening in and will report our concerns............

Well, someone from Lenovo put up a survey about support several days ago, yet very few people have responded...

#16 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:53 pm

Truthfinder wrote: Hopefully someone from Lenovo is listening in and will report our concerns............
My 2 cents

Like this? http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=51968

#17 Post by **erik** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:59 pm

CeNG wrote:I didn't have issues with the profiles, you're correct XP does play well with them. The issue was more than I'd used my Spyder Colorimeter and created a bunch of different profiles to test out and none of them really fixed the issue. Purples are way too blue so I assumed the issue was a result of a combination of too much blue and not enough red. But after extensive profile creation and tweaking the color issue remains. This LCD is the first display that I've seen that did not benefit from Spyder calibration, or at least did not benefit noticably. I also manually tweaked the gamma via the nVidia control panel and used a couple of other software based color correction apps (QuickGamma and Monitor Calibration Wizard) but to no avail.

the purple/blue color-correctness issue is one i can agree with. this is the fault of the panel manufacturer and also the fact that they are 6-bit panels. unfortunately there isn't much that can be done here aside from using an external display. even thinkpad IPS displays and macbook pro displays have color-accuracy issues in my experience. notebooks just aren't made to be self-sufficient graphics workstations.

generalsu · #18 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:02 pm

CeNG, since you have 3GB RAM, I am assuming you have 2 stick of RAM or Dual Channel memory? That means 1 GB RAM and another 2 GB RAM sticks? If that's the case, try removing one SO-DIMM and see what happens.

Hellbore · #19 Post by **Hellbore** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:02 am

generalsu wrote:CeNG, since you have 3GB RAM, I am assuming you have 2 stick of RAM or Dual Channel memory? That means 1 GB RAM and another 2 GB RAM sticks? If that's the case, try removing one SO-DIMM and see what happens.

Yep I bet he has the same issue you and I have that is becoming more and more common...

Pull out one stick of RAM... BING! no more crashes ever. I'll bet you money.

Lenovo is working on this issue. Make sure you let them know you have this problem, the more people they hear from the more likely the issue will be solved.

CeNG · #20 Post by **CeNG** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:04 am

Update:

Well my Thinkpad is still sitting at the depot. Apparently they decided to replace my mainboard and it's been on order since 11/16. Shipments supposedly come in every Monday and so I've called just about every Monday since asking if they had an estimate (they had no estimate on the ezserv site) and they just told me the following Monday or Tuesday was probable.

This Monday when I called I expressed some concern that I was getting the run around and no actual answers and that my Thinkpad had been sitting in the depot with no status change for two weeks I was put through to some parts department who told me that the mainboard would definitely be in on the 10th of Dec!

So if they actually get in the mainboard and replace it quickly and ship me back my Thinkpad it will have been almost a month total for repair. Sort of mind boggling to me. The longest I was ever without a Thinkpad previously, regardless of what had to be repaired, was 5 days. And usually it was more on the order of 3 days.

Ugh @ Lenovo.

</rant>

I'll update here when I actually get my Thinkpad back and see if any of the issues were actually resolved.

Truthfinder · #21 Post by **Truthfinder** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:18 pm

Sounds like you are getting the same sort of service that H.P. or Compaq users get............
I could sort of understand poor service and loooooooong turn-around times when you purchase a $400. dollar unit, but on the other hand, when you consider that ThinkPad owners shell out major bucks for what we THINK is a top of the line business notebook / laptop, with the fantastic three year fix it up warn., it makes you wonder.......

Things tend to change slowly over time and I can see by what I have been reading, Lenovo is slowly but surely manufacturing units and servicing these units in a way which makes us want to take notice. Have we become victims of the "Let's buy it because of the name-plate" consumer ? Sad to say, we most likely have..

On the other-hand, we, the dedicated Thinkpad users should understand that other notebook vendors are making some wonderful products that are as good or in some cases better than the Lenovo Thinkpad.

All in all, these toys that we so depend on are peices of plasitc made in Ch$&^..........

My 2 cents worth

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ONE AND ALL

CeNG · #22 Post by **CeNG** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:16 pm

Well, I got the T61p back on the 6th. I guess that's good since they told me the part wouldn't be in until the 10th...previous three weeks of sketchy support and empty promises aside.

The planar card (aka mainboard) was replaced and that was apparently the only thing that was touched.

Sound still crackles, which I'm now convinced is just because of the mediocre sound card/speakers.

LCD color still sucks, which is definitely a result of the inferior screens used in the T61ps.

And the freezing still occurs which is probably just a result of running too hot while playing games and dvds.

I think this, sadly, is the last Thinkpad I'll purchase. The last 7 or 8 years were chocked full of excellent laptops and stellar customer support (in my experience) that really seems to be lacking now that Lenovo has taken over.

At any rate thanks for all of the responses! Case closed.

mattbiernat · #23 Post by **mattbiernat** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:07 pm

CeNG wrote:I think this, sadly, is the last Thinkpad I'll purchase.

how about older T60s...?

CeNG · #24 Post by **CeNG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:06 pm

mattbiernat wrote:
CeNG wrote:I think this, sadly, is the last Thinkpad I'll purchase.
how about older T60s...?

Maybe an older one. >_>

Truthfinder · #25 Post by **Truthfinder** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:08 pm

I have been a ThinkPad user for many years and at present own a earlier T60 build u nit which has been fantastic. On the other hand I have used the new T-61 and there is clearly a some quality issues as fair as I'm concerned.

Hopefully, the people at Lenovo are listening in to our concerns and will make the needed changes to keep the dedicated ThinkPad buyers coming back again and again. Otherwise, we will shop elsewhere.... and there are some great products out there !

My 2 cents

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL

technics_speak · #26 Post by **technics_speak** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:40 pm

CeNG wrote: LCD color still sucks, which is definitely a result of the inferior screens used in the T61ps.

You think that screen is bad, the T60 14" XGA panel's colour reproduction is abysmal! It really "pales" in comparison (pun intended) to my external Samsung 940BW WXGA, which has AMAZING colour reprod.

SLoweCSL · #27 Post by **SLoweCSL** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:39 pm

Yep I bet he has the same issue you and I have that is becoming more and more common...

Pull out one stick of RAM... BING! no more crashes ever. I'll bet you money.

Lenovo is working on this issue. Make sure you let them know you have this problem, the more people they hear from the more likely the issue will be solved.[/quote]

I know that when my T61 came back from it's 2nd depot return, they decided it was the ram and replaced the 2-gig modules with 1-2gig module, so that is interesting.

All I know is that the problems with both the system and talking to tech support, helped me decide, at least for my company, not to buy any more Lenovos.

I bought a Dell Precision M6300 and have been using it for 3 months now running Vista and it has never had a problem. I took the 2-2gig modules out that were giving me so much problem with the T61 and put them in my Dell and they are running great with no issues.

It is a little troubling to me to see how many bios updates the system has gone through since I bought it. That to me seems to scream out that they are having problems with the systems.

SLoweCSL · #28 Post by **SLoweCSL** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:42 pm

[quote="CeNG"]Update:

So if they actually get in the mainboard and replace it quickly and ship me back my Thinkpad it will have been almost a month total for repair. Sort of mind boggling to me. The longest I was ever without a Thinkpad previously, regardless of what had to be repaired, was 5 days. And usually it was more on the order of 3 days.

Ugh @ Lenovo.

</rant>

My first depot repair back in August took around one month. I was told then that it was a motherboard availability problem then. It was rediculous to have to wait for a month to get your system back, especially when it was only 2 weeks old at the time.

Osaka · #29 Post by **Osaka** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:51 am

I worked for IBM for 7 years. Over those years, I used the T23 and T40p. Besides the well-known planar card issue on the 40, never had a single problem with them.

So after leaving the company, of course I purchased my own T60p. It has been into the repair depot twice. The first time because the video card went bad. After getting it back, the video worked but the sound card was messed up. Now I have really bad GPU overheating problems causing me to lock up during any games I play.

Multiple solutions to the GPU problems have been posted on this board. The most troubling thing however is the CAUSE of the problem, a very easy to spot poor design in the GPU heatpipe design.

Now while I love to build and tinker with computers, including my water cooled desktop system, when I pay over 2k for a laptop I expect it to be flawless, well designed, and well tested. I should not have to open it up and bend pipes and insert pennies to remedy things. Hopefully this is all just growing pains or a bad design cycle for Lenovo.

Right now, I would not buy another laptop from them. But when I finally do decide to buy another one, I will come here and read the current reports on quality and maaaybe give them one last shot.

Ridiculous Thinkpad tech call, thoughts?

Ridiculous Thinkpad tech call, thoughts?

Re: Ridiculous Thinkpad tech call, thoughts?

Too much blue in LCD Display !

Re: Ridiculous Thinkpad tech call, thoughts?

IPS DISPLAY PANELS

IBM Repair

Re: IBM Repair

Re: IBM Repair

ThinkPad at depo

LAST THINKPAD !

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