Received a Thinkpad 2373 Q1U from Bill!!!!!!!!!!

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jordi32 · #1 Post by **jordi32** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:26 pm

Today I have received a Thinkpad Q1U from Bill. So far I am very happy with it. This Thinkpad is amazing. It has a very beautiful screen! I had a very bad experience with IBM direct. After receiving several defective units from IBM direct, I decided to order from Bill. He cherry picked the unit for dead/stuck pixels before shipping it to me. I must say that I am very happy with his service . He was always very helpful and responsive to my e mails and I received my Thinkpad promptly.

I strongly recommend anyone to get a Thinkpad from him.

Best regards,

Jordi

#2 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:37 pm

I'm glad everything has gone well for you!

Let us know how well the Q1U's fingerprint reader works

edelrc · #3 Post by **edelrc** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:33 pm

I envy you Jordi... with finger reader eh?... best wishes with your new thinkpad!

monty cantsin · #4 Post by **monty cantsin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:57 pm

edelrc wrote:I envy you Jordi... with finger reader eh?... best wishes with your new thinkpad!

Btw, here's something for all the DIY enthusiasts:

"3. EXPERIMENTS
3.1 How to make Artificial Fingers"

T. Matsumoto, H. Matsumoto, K. Yamada, S. Hoshino, "Impact of Artificial Gummy Fingers on Fingerprint Systems," Proceedings of SPIE Vol. #4677, Optical Security and Counterfeit Deterrence Techniques IV, 2002.

http://www.rootsecure.net/content/downl ... anners.pdf

http://cryptome.org/gummy.htm

Also interesting:

http://cryptome.org/fake-prints.htm

edelrc · #5 Post by **edelrc** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:07 pm

he, he... I´d got these papers too a year ago! Yep, that the finger reader is as secure as any of the other existent methods is our only consolation...

Kenn · #6 Post by **Kenn** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:23 pm

edelrc wrote:he, he... I´d got these papers too a year ago! Yep, that the finger reader is as secure as any of the other existent methods is our only consolation...

Right, exactly how many people out there have a mold of your fingerprint with which to make a gummi copy, and is doing so really that much easier than loading a keylogger onto your system (or for that matter, picking up a $0.99 screwdriver from sears and snagging the HD)? Just because a print scanner is not foolproof does not mean that in a practical sense it's less secure than a password system.

monty cantsin · #7 Post by **monty cantsin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:41 pm

Kenn wrote:Right, exactly how many people out there have a mold of your fingerprint

Not necessary. Remove a fingerprint, for instance from a glass, with the help of some sticky tape, digitize it (with a scanner or digicam), then edit it with some imaging software and print it out with your inkjet printer (I suppose laser works also, although I've only seen presentations with inkjets yet) onto transparency film. Then you can make a gum copy from that fingerprint, too.

edelrc · #8 Post by **edelrc** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:53 pm

I don´t intend to reflect here a doctoral study, but I don´t find these readers more or less secure. Depends on the technology that IBM is using, but a fingerprint is much more ease to obtain that one thinks... mostly from a coworker. And what is worse, in the underground market exists already devices that replicates the finger furrows from a simple fingerprint in a paper.
Of course, that still better protection than a password that can be seen with a simple camera installed somewhere. (software keyloggers don´t work until windows is at least, partially loaded.) But passwords can be changed as frequently as desired, and fingerprints can´t.
At the end, all has a similar level of security. But, for the user, there is little doubt the finger reader is much more convenient... but don´t expect the CIA laptops to be ONLY protected by them.

monty cantsin · #9 Post by **monty cantsin** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:35 pm

edelrc wrote:I don´t intend to reflect here a doctoral study, but I don´t find these readers more or less secure. Depends on the technology that IBM is using, but a fingerprint is much more ease to obtain that one thinks...

Yeah, it is. As currently there is a discussion in Germany going on concerning the introduction of biometrical passports in the EU, Andy Müller-Maguhn, famous member of the CCC (Chaos Computer Club) demonstrated on German TV (3sat, "nano" TV show) some days ago how to take a photo of a fingerprint on a plastic bottle with the help of some instant glue (its transpirations made the grease visible) and a digital camera. The image was edited on the computer, then simply printed on an ordinary transparency sheet. He just had to squeeze some wood-glue on the print-out, and when it had become dry, he could glue the fake fingertip on his own finger and use it almost unnoticed. Needless to say that it worked, they checked it with a special, quite expensive Siemens ID-Mouse that had a fingerprint sensor on it.

http://www.siemensidmouse.com/

http://www.3sat.de/3sat.php?http://www. ... cke/72486/

lfeagan · #10 Post by **lfeagan** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:16 pm

Great information Monty, thanks for the good links to the CCC info.

Kenn · #11 Post by **Kenn** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:30 pm

monty cantsin wrote:
Kenn wrote:Right, exactly how many people out there have a mold of your fingerprint
Not necessary. Remove a fingerprint, for instance from a glass, with the help of some sticky tape, digitize it (with a scanner or digicam), then edit it with some imaging software and print it out with your inkjet printer (I suppose laser works also, although I've only seen presentations with inkjets yet) onto transparency film. Then you can make a gum copy from that fingerprint, too.

Right, but if you're going through that many steps, you might as well just drill a hole above the suspension ceiling and place a camera over the guy's head and watch his keystrokes

And there are plenty of malware that captures login information, too. Also remember that the login password is used to unlock the machine well after bootup.

Also, I think people tend to overestimate the ease of obtaining a clean fingerprint. Police scour for these things and most of the time they end up working with horribly degraded, partial prints. It's easy to conjure a demonstration where a guy presses the right finger onto a glass and immediately lifts it, but in reality someone drinking from a cup will have smudged it with prints all over, and getting a clean one, not to mention the single correctly enrolled finger will not be nearly as easy.

And you may not be able to change your fingerprints, but you can change the finger you use - and each of those will be unique.

Monty - just out of curiosity, was the scanner they used in the demonstration a flat or a swipe scanner?

#12 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:42 pm

speaking about finger print readers, i have left, frequently, a fingerprint on the sticky side of clear packing tape..

I get Taurens · #13 Post by **I get Taurens** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:27 am

morrow wrote:speaking about finger print readers, i have left, frequently, a fingerprint on the sticky side of clear packing tape..

LOL classic!!!!

edelrc · #14 Post by **edelrc** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:09 am

Kenn, do you think is so hard too get a clear print? Let me guess... you don´t wear glasses eh?

Those of us who does knows how eay it is to get a clear and detailed pring with a minimal almost non-existing touching... at they last forever!!!

One question, that reader works only to log into windows? It does not work for unlocking the system and HDD when the thinkpad boots up????

monty cantsin · #15 Post by **monty cantsin** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:19 am

Kenn wrote:And you may not be able to change your fingerprints, but you can change the finger you use - and each of those will be unique.

Yeah, and you could also use your toes, that would be even more secure...

Kenn wrote:Monty - just out of curiosity, was the scanner they used in the demonstration a flat or a swipe scanner?

As you can see in the pictures on the ID-Mouse website I posted above, it's an area sensor of the capacitive silicon CMOS type.

The reason for taking the swipe type is not so much due to security improvements (capacitive is already better than optical), but because of cost reduction.

"Swipe sensors mark a major improvement in biometric technology over touch sensors
* Smaller
* Less expensive"

http://www.pc.ibm.com/partnerworld/se/o ... ct2004.ppt

See also:

Sigmund Clausen: "Reconstruction of fingerprint images from a single line swipe sensor" (white paper, september 2002)

http://www.idex.no/x/TechWeb/library/Reconstruction.pdf

The most important security improvement over area sensors, however, is not that the swipe-sensor technology itself is more fool-proof, but that with pressing your fingerprint on an area sensor, you might already leave a perfect blueprint for breaking security on the security device itself. With swipe sensors, there's not a complete fingerprint left with which a fake fingertip could be made:

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/locks ... 73632.html

What's stated in this resource is not completely true, though. While it is correct that mostly optical and capacitive sensors are used due to the cost restrictions involved, there is also another type of sensors, ultrasound:

http://www.biometritech.com/features/shen0902.htm

monty cantsin · #16 Post by **monty cantsin** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:42 am

edelrc wrote:One question, that reader works only to log into windows? It does not work for unlocking the system and HDD when the thinkpad boots up????

Can be configured as a Windows log-on, power-on and/or hard drive security measure.

"IBM Selects UPEK as the Sole Fingerprint Authentication Solution for the New Thinkpad® Notebook"
http://www.upek.com/company/UPEK_IBM_QA.pdf

"First Thoughts: IBM ThinkPad T42 with Biometric Security (pics)"
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.aspx?newsID=2057

"IBM adds fingerprint security to ThinkPads"
http://www.itnews.com.au/msoft_storycon ... t_ID=21917

"The IBM Integrated Fingerprint Reader Presentation"
http://www.ibm.com/pc/us/thinkpad/3dtou ... index.html

"ThinkPad Fingerprint Reader Flash Presentation" (download)
http://www5.pc.ibm.com/br/me.nsf/ThinkP ... 39007E3D24

edelrc · #17 Post by **edelrc** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:00 pm

Wow monty cantsin, yo´re informed... thanks for all your links!!!

(and Kenn, thanks to you too, i remember when last summer you were one of mine best aid on getting my thinkpad!)

Kenn · #18 Post by **Kenn** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:01 pm

edelrc wrote:Kenn, do you think is so hard too get a clear print? Let me guess... you don´t wear glasses eh? Those of us who does knows how eay it is to get a clear and detailed pring with a minimal almost non-existing touching... at they last forever!!!

One question, that reader works only to log into windows? It does not work for unlocking the system and HDD when the thinkpad boots up????

Actually, I do wear glasses (probably a good bet for a lot of people hanging around a laptop forum, if I may be so bold

)

I still believe that yes, it is possible to lift a fingerprint, but just talking about how easy it would be to stand by an ATM and grab people's PIN codes, in a real-world situation people will find that grabbing a usable print is not as easy or practical as they are imagining.

Kenn · #19 Post by **Kenn** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:37 pm

monty cantsin wrote: The most important security improvement over area sensors, however, is not that the swipe-sensor technology itself is more fool-proof, but that with pressing your fingerprint on an area sensor, you might already leave a perfect blueprint for breaking security on the security device itself. With swipe sensors, there's not a complete fingerprint left with which a fake fingertip could be made:

Yep, this is exactly why I asked.

Received a Thinkpad 2373 Q1U from Bill!!!!!!!!!!

Received a Thinkpad 2373 Q1U from Bill!!!!!!!!!!

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