IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support

[kosse]

I called IBM Support Finland today. They said that they will NOT service the machine if the service pack is bought afterwards i.e. it must have been bought with the machine if I understood correctly.

So, it looks like that things are not much better in Finland.

[Robbyrobot]

Johan, sweet reasonableness is admirable, but sometimes a loaded gun held to the other guy's head achieves more. I would long since have taken this to an attorney, not only for the repair but also for damages, to reimburse you for the unnecessary time and expense lost to date. And I would certainly advise you to do this asap.

It seems to me you've achieved incredible results through your perseverance - even getting people to talk to you is an achievement under these circumstances - but not you're down to the nitty-gritty and if you want to see this affair revolved in some satisfactory way, you're going to have to show your teeth in a way that can't be ignored.

[teepee]

What a horror story Johan. That is really shockingly bad service. I suppose the only upside is that you have brought this to the attention of the TP community. This would definitely concern me if I choose another TP when my current TP needs to retire.

Actually I just dropped in here today to see if anyone had posted re eBay purchases and warranties. Didn't find anything directly relevant, but that search is how I found your thread.

If no consumer protection organisation in Denmark can help you, I would have thought getting IBM UK to repair your machine would be the best option, given that you know they are on your side. That said, andyP's offer also sounds good, given his contacts.

First though I would go with the suggestion of contacting Palmisano. I would also contact the CEO office of Lenovo. Personally, I would think the CEO of IBM would be 'glad' to hear of your problems, because only then can he deal with the issues/people presently causing problems in Denmark. The Lenovo CEO may similarly be keen to know about this.

As an aside, a few years back, living in the US, I had a Digital laptop. During the warranty period they were bought by Compaq, and then the laptop went wrong. Went in for repair 3 times, each time coming back worse than before. The last time smoke came out when I switched on. I complained to customer service and was told to send it in again. Then they budged to offering a refurb in exchange. I thought this was very poor, so I complained to Compaq CEO'f office, got a quick reply and the offer of a new laptop. I checked the spec and it was heavier than my Digital so I called back, and the person I dealt with allowed me to choose the model I wanted. The only other time I felt seriously enough to contact a head office it also worked, getting a letter and very decent compensation directly from the CEO of a Virgin company.

If you decide to try for a repair in Scotland but they won't accept the machine because it is outside the UK, PM to see if I can help (I'm in the UK).

[kosse]

I called IBM support Finland again with the machine's serial number and asked them to confirm the warranty from their database. My new (still with George) Z61t will be covered by onsite warranty in Finland. Good news for me but unfortunately won't do much good for Johan

This time there was a different guy answering the phone though and when I asked if there were any exceptions to IWS warranty like warranty upgrades he said that he knew nothing about that. The guy who I had a conversation yesterday said, however, that they will not service a machine that is on an warranty extension / upgrade. Apparently that kind of warranty isn't covered by IWS.

Anyway, I think it's always worth checking in the individual country where the machine is bought/taken to from it's own support.

I hope this helps (not just salt in the wounds ).

[hdahl]

Dear forum friends,


… so get going, Santa-IBM!!

Best regards,

Johan

Hello Johan!

Did you read what I wrote above? Was it what you got confirmed?

Or in Danish: Læste du det jeg skrev ovenfor? Var det hvad du fik bekræftet?


Best regards,

Henrik Dahl

[Johan]

Friends:

I still owe to give feedback to the many kind forum members, who have most recently contributed with helpful comments and suggestions to aid me in having my (still dead) T42p repaired under the warranty which IBM-Support has numerous times confirmed in writing was valid and would be honored, but which IBM/Denmark yet continue to refuse honoring.

By this time I had hoped to have some good news to share… such as e.g. that Santa-IBM did indeed show up Christmas Eve, but unfortunately he didn’t…

Status today is that I am trying to see if the IWS-covered repair can be obtained elsewhere in Europe, since I am still trying to avoid the last, undesirable (= very expensive and very paperwork-demanding) option: Shipping it all the way to the USA. In a hopefully not-too-distant future we shall see if IBM elsewhere in Europe will honor the official IBM/Lenovo International Warranty Service Terms And Conditions, explicitly stating: "(IWS) enables customers who travel with or relocate any IWS-eligible IBM product to receive warranty service in any country where their product is sold and serviced."

To comment the many posts since my last update:

I'll keep it short, and hope not to make a nuisance of myself, BUT...
You think it is unfair to ask IBM UK to help you out, where it is unfair from IBM Denmark to deny you your RIGHTS.
YOU are the customer, and the customer is always right!
Stop pussyfooting, call the UK and ask them straight out!
Worst that can happen is they say 'no'. What have you got to lose?

@ RealBlackStuff: First, and to emphasize: I absolutely appreciate all your support, and I surely never thought of you as being ”a nuisance”, so you can just relax now, please… You and I may probably be acting differently in our approach in matters like this, but in any case I promise you that the day is rapidly coming closer when I will no more be ”pussyfooting”. Still, I continue to keep this suggestion (asking IBM-Support/UK again) in mind as one of the options still available.

As far as I remember IBM Denmark has some years ago issued a statement that they do not assume the responsibilities for guarantee for notebooks purchased outside of Denmark. As far as I remember they also informed that the decision was made in order to support the very high prices for IBM notebooks in Denmark despite the value of the dollar was declining.

(Henrik later wrote, with reference to the above post):

Did you read what I wrote above? Was it what you got confirmed?

@ hdahl: Henrik, Thank you a lot for this highly interesting information! I never saw (or even heard about?) such an official IBM-statement, printed on IBM-paper, but if you could possible dig it up, I would of course be very, very interested in seeing it. The explanation for IBM/Denmark having done so would give good meaning, from a very narrow IBM/Denmark-ThinkPad-sale-point-of-view. How such a national statement could however entirely overrule the official IBM/Lenovo International Warranty Service Terms And Conditions, that I fail to understand. If I chose to bring my case to a Danish court (and yes, I am getting closer to this point), what would then apply, in a legal wise, I wonder: All the written confirmations received by the official IBM-Support, or the international IBM/Lenovo IWS Terms And Conditions which even this very day are found on the internet… or some IBM/Denmark ”no-warranty announcement” which I am unable to find myself, and which IBM/Denmark has also not provided me with, despite having had several opportunities?

The only ”IBM announcement” of this kind that I have been able to find is this: IBM: Ingen garanti på parallel-import – the title in English being this: ”IBM: No warranty on parallel-import”. In this article it says, amongst other things (in Danish): ”Men man kan vise en kvittering på, at man selv har købt maskinen i udlandet, så vil vi gerne yde service på den, men ikke hvis den er købt via en netbutik i Danmark, så er maskinen butikkens problem, siger produktchef Flemming Märtens, IBM, til Politiken.” or translated into English (my translation): ”But if [you/the owner] can show an invoice documenting that [you/the owner] have bought the machine abroad, then we will honor service, but not if it is bought in a Danish net-shop, then it is a problem of the Danish net-shop, says ”product head” Flemming Märtens, IBM, to “Politiken” (a big, Danish newspaper).

Note that the above is cited from an independent internet site (Computerworld.dk), which has no business connection to IBM – in other words, what is referenced here (as claimed said by IBM) can hardly be thought of as an official IBM statement, in my opinion.

This article ends by saying: ”Politisk medarbejder Anders Hjort Jensen fra Forbrugerrådet tvivler dog ifølge Politiken på, at den holder i retten.” or in English (my translation): ”Political employee Anders Hjort Jensen of the Danish National Consumer Protection Organization [see further down this post, in a comment to Esben] according to ”Politiken” doubt that this [IBM policy] will hold in court”. Interesting!

PS: I sent you a PM, quite a while ago – please check your forum.thinkpads.com PM’s, Henrik!

That sounds like the brain (USA) can't control what the hands (Denmark/UK/whoever) are doing...which sounds like a corporate version of MS...as in disease, not bloatware maker....

The key thing in this dispute is the fact that everyone apart from IBM Denmark agrees that Johan is right...now someone from here has to pull some self-righteous bureaucrate over there by the ear...

They are so lucky they are dealing with a fine gentleman that Johan is...if it were me, it would've gotten very ugly by now.

May The Force be with you, Johan.

@ ajkula66: George, thank you very much for your kind words – I absolutely appreciate being called ”a gentleman”, although this seems to come at the expense of simultaneously being nicknamed ”pussyfoot”… Aaw, well, no matter what name(s) being called (you may really call me anyhing you want; because recall: “Dear child has many names”!), it is such a pleasure to have all the friends and support of this outstanding forum. And, yes, I agree with you that it would seem as if ”the brain (USA) can't control what the hands (Denmark) are doing”. Yet, I trust that it is (ultimately!) the brain that is in control, if taking this case all the way to the top. As mentioned in the reply to hdahl above, I think my case would be pretty strong in a Danish court – but we may perhaps find out about that some day, if (/when?) I chose to take that step.

So sorry to hear of your trouble.

I hope that this is resolved to your satisfaction quickly.

This is no way to treat a customer.

Brad

PS: If Johan somehow doesn't take the position in Paris, I am avialable.

@ Brad: Thank you also for your kind support, Brad. I am not sure whether IBM (/Denmark) think of me as ”a customer”; I guess they rather consider me as being some kind of ”annoyance”? As you have read from the above, I hope to have my T42p repaired here in Europe, but if failing to do so, I surely thank you for your kind offer of being available in the USA, if need be. George (ajkula66) used the word ”gentleman” above, and it immediately comes to mind when reading your post. Brad. I can’t resist repeating – after having read your post: What a pleasure experiencing all the kindness of this forum!

Johan,

there is a new forum out, http://forum.lenovo.com
Your problem is also a Lenovo problem, after all they bought the whole shebang from IBM.

Post your problem there as well, but keep it short and to the point, without all the 'dramatics'.
The Lenovo mods (those with names like Xxx_Lenovo) are constantly 'roaming' that new forum, and perhaps one of them has a heart and can help you further.
It's worth a shot!

@ RealBlackStuff: Thanks for this information. You posted this suggestion before I made my prior update to this thread (that being my post of Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:31). The ”someone@us.lenovo.com” mentioned in that post is one of the (key) persons on the new Lenovo-forum, and he is indeed a person with a helpful heart and a strong sense of right and wrong and a big will to help. This very kind Lenovo-employee helped me so far he could (and so far as Lenovo chose to go, as evident from the remark in his final mail to me: ”My Lenovo contacts are unwilling to proceed further on the matter.”). No more options there.

One other suggestion for you , Johan. I have never had occasion to try it myself but some other members here have recommended Sending an email to Sam Palmisano. I recall reading anecdotal accounts here that some people got satisfaction. Best of luck to you!

Brian

@ BeeJayEmm: Brian, thank you for this absolutely interesting (ultimate) suggestion! I recall having seen posts scattered on the forum from time to time with Sam Palmisano’s name and help mentioned. I am playing with this idea in my mind – it’s very tempting. If the European IWS-repair fails to succeed, I might very well take this route. Thank you for suggesting this. Tempting, tempting…

RBS wrote:

Your problem is also a Lenovo problem, after all they bought the whole shebang from IBM.

My understanding is any machine sold before 5/1/05 is still an IBM problem rather than a Lenovo problem. The Lenovo people may do what they can but BeeJayEmm's suggestion may be more productive.

Good luck.

@ dsvochak: As mentioned in my update of Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:31 am, this is the final answer received from the Lenovo Customer Care in the USA:

Subject: Re: CMT Case #PGxxx- ends at person complained against! [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

<snip>
The findings from the team are as follows:

Your PC is a legacy PC, it was a machine sold prior to the Lenovo aquistion and the warranty liability for the base warranty is owned by IBM - and the decision making for it.

The Upgraded warranty was determined to be valid in the country of purchase (US) and not international - this was IBM's ruling on their warranty policy.
<snip>

… so you are right; this is an IBM-issue/decision, which Lenovo doesn’t seem to have the power to (or maybe willingness to?) alter or escalate further. I think the way forward has to go either via a Danish court, or via Mr. Palmisano.

I'm very sorry to hear of your problems Johan. I hope you get this resolved soon. Fortunately I've never had a warranty claim for my US bought ThinkPad. I did though, crack the screen, and had to buy and change it myself.

If you don't have any luck changing the opinion of IBM Denmark, you can try Forbrugerankenævnet.
It's very unfornate that a big company such as IBM doesn't have the guts to support their customers as a big and connected organization.

I know from my time in the customer service of a warehouse (Kvickly), that we often had to honor a customer claim of warranty, even though it was unjustified, just because of being part of a large chain and corporation. I was expecting this to be similar for bigger corporations, and across country borders.

Best of luck
Esben

@ Esben: Yet a countrymen, pleasure meeting here Esben! I have already thought about Forbrugerankenævnet (the ”Danish National Consumer Protection Organization”, my translation), that you are mentioning, but the thing is that they have no legal authority on their own (in contrast to what a court has); all the Danish National Consumer Protection Organization can is say to the e.g. company complained against: ”We hereby rule you (the company) to be wrong, so please obey our ruling”. If the company rejects to do this, then Forbrugerankenævnet may bring the case to court/trial, if requested so by the private person making the claim. All this is another option, and has the benefit that the private consumer (in this case: I) may obtain a free trial, but the whole process (without knowing nothing about how it works, in reality) seems a bit lengthy… I guess I am more voting for contacting a lawyer on my own, and go straight towards court. But, you absolutely bring up a very good suggestion – I will have to make a list of what to do first! By this time, I think I have so many good, constructive suggestions that I simply just have to win this case some day!! How could I possibly loose with all you friends on my side? Impossible!!

It's very unfornate that a big company such as IBM doesn't have the guts to support their customers as a big and connected organization.

Yes. a company intent on doing the right thing and providing true IWS would secure an agent in Denmark who would provide this service. I am hopeful the list of exceptions will now remain small, to retain the worth of IWS for international travellers.

@ rbena: I think you can relax (if you don’t already!), because as hdahl has indicated above, the problems that I am experiencing seems to be related to European customers who buy ThinkPad’s from abroad, and then needs IWS-repair here in Europe. I guess it all boils down to that the national, European IBM-divisions wants to avoid potential ThinkPad-customers from doing business with anyone except the particular European IBM-division. My belief (only belief!) therefore is that you (as a non-European) will be covered by the three-year base warranty (incl. IWS), if being e.g. from New Zealand, and while on a trip to e.g. Denmark will need service. If the initial three-year base-warranty of your ThinkPad has however expired, and if it is therefore an extended warranty that is now in place, then I am actually not sure of e.g. IBM/Denmark will honor/cover an IWS-repair (I mean, if you are honest, and provide them with all this true information!). The answers I have received from IBM, and which I have referenced above, seems to state that you will NOT (!!) be covered by an IWS-repair, if ”only” being covered by an extended warranty. And, yes, I know that we read differently from the IBM/Lenovo Warranty Conditions also mentioned above – but IBM/Denmark (and perhaps also IBM elsewhere in Europe?) seems to follow their own, secret rules, which you won’t know about until its too late?!

I am hopeful the list of exceptions will now remain small, to retain the worth of IWS for international travellers.

As far as I can tell, there isn't much of an issue in terms of getting IWS coverage when someone travelling with a ThinkPad is looking for support while temporaily in country (at least as long as the parts for their ThinkPad are used in models which are sold in the territory concerned).

It may be an issue for users who are resident in a country and import a ThinkPad from another market, and then try to gain ongoing local support under an IWS. This is where things seems to trip up.

Cheers,

Bill B.

@ bill bolton: You are (hopefully and most likely, I believe) right about the ”travelling” IWS-coverage, Bill – although as mentioned to rbena just above, an extended (IWS-) warranty does NOT seem to be officially covered/honored by IBM?!

I am a bit uncertain as of what you mean by ”this is where things seems to trip up”; in my opinion there ought not to be any doubt of what is right and wrong in my case (in particular not based on the fact that I numerous times received written confirmation from IBM/Support about the warranty-coverage!). But, if ”trip up” refer to the apparent disagreement, or lack of knowledge, between IBM/Support (UK) and IBM/Denmark - and IBM/Support (UK) not knowing about IBM/Denmark’s ”secret conditions”, then, yes, I agree that that’s where things ”trip up” – when the (legal or not?!) company policy of national-IBM divisions are not known by the relevant regional company-divisions (e.g. support). No need however (for my part) to go deeper into a discussion about what ”trip up” mean – I am sure you have understood my case, and I really have no need to dig for more disagreements!

I am reading this IWS thread with great interest. I don't find anything in the online documentation that would disqualify Johan from receiving IWS in Denmark (or anywhere else he may need to be). The IWS info clearly says that "(IWS) enables customers who travel with or relocate any IWS-eligible IBM product to receive warranty service in any country where their product is sold and serviced." The only exceptions described in the IWS is the availability of parts for elgibility and therefore excludes some models that are not typically sold in the country where service would be expected. In Johan's case, since the model was typically available for sale in his country, it wouldn't be excluded. He investigated all that before buying the unit and before buying the IWS. That leaves only a couple of other concerns: is a laptop purchase transferrable, and is IWS transferrable. I don't seem to recall reading anywhere on IBM website that that is not so.

I would insist that IBM Denmark provide in writing citing the actual policy entry that describes Johan's disqualification. Failing that, I would first take the matter to IBM head office in USA, and failing that I would make the matter public with a Denmark TV station.

@ Ogg: According to everything I have ever seen and heard, the warranty on an IBM and/or Lenovo ThinkPad follows the machine, and not the owner. This has also been confirmed numerous times on this forum – see e.g. How is the thinkpad warranty transferred ? (many more such threads will show up if searching on the forum after ”warranty transferred”). No doubt about that – the warranty follows the ThinkPad. Nothing about needing to ”transfer” any warranty coverage to a new owner, if selling e.g. a T42p, is stated in the IBM/Lenovo Statement of Limited Warranty - ThinkPad T40/p, T41/p, T42/p, T43/p.

About your suggestion for requesting official documentation from IBM/Denmark describing their warranty conditions (which have ”hit” me); ooh, yes, surely – that would be absolutely interesting! However, I somehow have an idea of they would not want to provide this, even if being asked – recall their very brief official answers, as repeated in my last post. It would have been a very logical step for the IBM/Denmark ”Country Warranty Manager” to have provided such documentation at that time. Which he clearly didn’t chose to do. You have a good point in that I could ask for this documentation, before taking the final, BIG step as also suggested by BeeJayEmm: Contacting Mr. Sam Palmisano. Thanks for this valuable suggestion!

About contacting a TV-station in Denmark – well, really I think this ”case” is too small, but on the other side, one of my friends is a very well known and highly respected journalist at the big Danish newspaper Ekstra Bladet - he has actually even several times won the highest journalist, newspaper-award in Denmark, ”Cavlingprisen”, which in the USA would translate to the "Pulitzer Prize" (!). Maybe I should give him a tip… I know that he very much like these stories! Hey, I didn’t think of that myself, before … quite interesting idea!

I would insist that IBM Denmark provide in writing citing the actual policy entry that describes Johan's disqualification.

Again, from what Johan and others have posted, IBM Denmark is setting their own policy which differs from IWS documentation. If IBM corporate headquarters will not resolve this discrepency, it appears Denmark and any other agency that sees fit can set the policy that suits them, regardless of documentation.

@ rbena: As already said, I tend to have the same opinion as what I understand you do: That the IBM/Denmark (IWS) warranty-policy, which I have been ”hit” by, is not something initiated, known and acknowledged by IBM/USA (??), but on the contrary is some local, Danish initiative which probably won’t hold in (a Danish) court, since it seems to be in contradiction to all the IBM/Lenovo warranty statements we all (only are able to!) find on the internet. And, yes, I also sort of have the feeling that ”[IBM-] Denmark and any other agency that sees fit can set the policy that suits them, regardless of documentation” – but what can I do to alter this – except bringing this case to court?

Guys and girls,
give this post a rest.
Johan is in contact with the proper authorities, who are doing their utmost, to sort out his problem.
In due time, no doubt Johan will post the results.
Until then, let's all keep our fingers and other extremities crossed, that it will work out well for him.
My $0.02

@ RealBlackStuff: Well, I wish I could (fully) agree with you that ”the proper authorities are doing their utmost”, but as mentioned above, Lenovo stopped doing their ”outmost” at a certain point – and they (Lenovo) could, in principle, have said: ”OK, to maintain the well-known worldwide, high ThinkPad reputation, we [Lenovo] will pay for the repair”. But, well, Lenovo chose not to do this – as you will see in my earlier comment to you, in this post.

I called IBM Support Finland today. They said that they will NOT service the machine if the service pack is bought afterwards i.e. it must have been bought with the machine if I understood correctly.

So, it looks like that things are not much better in Finland.

… and later:

I called IBM support Finland again with the machine's serial number and asked them to confirm the warranty from their database. My new (still with George) Z61t will be covered by onsite warranty in Finland. Good news for me but unfortunately won't do much good for Johan

This time there was a different guy answering the phone though and when I asked if there were any exceptions to IWS warranty like warranty upgrades he said that he knew nothing about that. The guy who I had a conversation yesterday said, however, that they will not service a machine that is on an warranty extension / upgrade. Apparently that kind of warranty isn't covered by IWS.

Anyway, I think it's always worth checking in the individual country where the machine is bought/taken to from it's own support.

I hope this helps (not just salt in the wounds ).

@ kosse: Thanks for this Scandinavian feedback! As you will read from my first post in this thread, I received different answers (from different IBM Support employees) about the coverage, or not, in Denmark of the extended warranty that was purchased in the USA. I have a very strong feeling that there is quite a bit of confusion (and also lack of knowledge) internal in the IBM Support staff (and, actually, also in the IBM sales staff!) about warranty coverage and conditions - and this goes both for the base-warranty and extended warranties or ePacs purchased subsequently. My suggestion: Don’t ever be satisfied with whatever explanation and ”warranty” issued to you via the phone. Get everything in writing, with proper identification of the senders official business-affiliation. What is some old, and long forgotten ”phone-promise” worth, the day you need to invoke warranty repair? Not much, I’m afraid.

Johan, sweet reasonableness is admirable, but sometimes a loaded gun held to the other guy's head achieves more. I would long since have taken this to an attorney, not only for the repair but also for damages, to reimburse you for the unnecessary time and expense lost to date. And I would certainly advise you to do this asap.

It seems to me you've achieved incredible results through your perseverance - even getting people to talk to you is an achievement under these circumstances - but not you're down to the nitty-gritty and if you want to see this affair revolved in some satisfactory way, you're going to have to show your teeth in a way that can't be ignored.

@ Robbyrobot: Well, you may perhaps be right – that I am just too kind and soft a guy and simply too much of a ”pussyfoot” but as already answered to RealBlackStuff above, I had hoped to succeed through the ”gentle” way, but unfortunately I haven’t. However, as also already said, I am rapidly coming closer to the approach that you suggest – but I just need to work a bit with my (so far limited!) powerful, roaring, mega-masculine attitude first! So, please, allow me a bit of time to expand with abilities, and I shall (hopefully!) soon emerge as a true RealBlackStuff-Robbyrobot-Johan-man! Hey, then no one is then going to beat me again, never, ever!!

What a horror story Johan. That is really shockingly bad service. I suppose the only upside is that you have brought this to the attention of the TP community. This would definitely concern me if I choose another TP when my current TP needs to retire.

Actually I just dropped in here today to see if anyone had posted re eBay purchases and warranties. Didn't find anything directly relevant, but that search is how I found your thread.

If no consumer protection organisation in Denmark can help you, I would have thought getting IBM UK to repair your machine would be the best option, given that you know they are on your side. That said, andyP's offer also sounds good, given his contacts.

First though I would go with the suggestion of contacting Palmisano. I would also contact the CEO office of Lenovo. Personally, I would think the CEO of IBM would be 'glad' to hear of your problems, because only then can he deal with the issues/people presently causing problems in Denmark. The Lenovo CEO may similarly be keen to know about this.

As an aside, a few years back, living in the US, I had a Digital laptop. During the warranty period they were bought by Compaq, and then the laptop went wrong. Went in for repair 3 times, each time coming back worse than before. The last time smoke came out when I switched on. I complained to customer service and was told to send it in again. Then they budged to offering a refurb in exchange. I thought this was very poor, so I complained to Compaq CEO'f office, got a quick reply and the offer of a new laptop. I checked the spec and it was heavier than my Digital so I called back, and the person I dealt with allowed me to choose the model I wanted. The only other time I felt seriously enough to contact a head office it also worked, getting a letter and very decent compensation directly from the CEO of a Virgin company.

If you decide to try for a repair in Scotland but they won't accept the machine because it is outside the UK, PM to see if I can help (I'm in the UK).

@ teepee: Thank you very much for you kind support and sympathy – and, not the least, for your generous and unselfish offer of being available if I need go the ”UK route”; this offer is highly appreciated. I think that most of what you mention I have already commented in the previous. My personal opinion is that the reason why Lenovo Customer Care stepped into this matter (and why they did this on their own initiative!) was and is that they (Lenovo) now own the ”ThinkPad” brand, and therefore has a clear business interest in avoiding that the brand maybe get a ”scratch” with respect the warranty coverage (or its reputation) on ThinkPad’s. Actually, I can’t help thinking that all the bad publicity which I fear that this issue may have caused IBM (at least IBM/Denmark?) may cost IBM/Lenovo more money – in terms of hesitating customers? – compared to the cost of having just made an exception and repairing my ThinkPad in the first place (while, as I suggested to them, making an exception in this case owing to all the written confirmation I had received from IBM-Support/UK prior to handing in my T42p). But, well, the ”Country Warranty Manager” of IBM/Denmark, who was responsible for rejecting my repair; he may perhaps have a more limited business perspective; what do I know? Also, it could be that IBM these days cares less about the reputation of the “ThinkPad” brand, since they no longer own it? Again, I really don’t know. Most of that I have experience doesn’t seem to make any particular good meaning...

Thanks, again, for your kind offer to help, if needed. I just sent you a PM.

--------------------------

OK, that was a pretty long post, again. I hope to have some good news in a couple of weeks of sooner, and I shall surely be looking to share it with all of you. As for now: THANK YOU, all of you – for all the continued support, suggestions, kindness and sympathy. What would I have been without this forum? A big-time looser! And look what I am now in stead aiming towards being – a winner! And only because of all you friends!

Thank you. Deeply.

Best regards,

Johan

[hdahl]

Friends:

...

Thank you. Deeply.

Best regards,

Johan

Johan,

What about just throwing out this old machine and get one of the new T6xp Penryn notebooks and enjoy it instead?


Best regards,

Henrik Dahl

[RealBlackStuff]

Johan, just in case, there is a T42p mobo on eBay
going cheap at the moment.
If you want me to try and 'snag' it for you, PM me with your max. bid and other details.
I have already asked seller what type (2373) and model (???) it is, awaiting answer.
I'll ship it out to you as 'used computer parts'.
You can pay me via PayPal.

[Johan]

Johan, just in case, there is a T42p mobo on eBay
going cheap at the moment.
If you want me to try and 'snag' it for you, PM me with your max. bid and other details.
I have already asked seller what type (2373) and model (???) it is, awaiting answer.
I'll ship it out to you as 'used computer parts'.
You can pay me via PayPal.

@ RealBlackStuff: Thank you for this suggestion. As you will perhaps recall, Troels already brought up this suggestion earlier in this thread (”buy a new motherboard on eBay and switch it myself”), but as previously mentioned I still feel what I said there, being:

”As to [your] suggestion about buying a “new” T42(p) motherboard off eBay, I have already considered this, but I would like to keep it is a last resort. I would rather like not having to do this, since I have never done that kind of advanced repairs myself, and if doing it I fear that my remaining warranty (which is valid with EZServ in the USA, throughout 2010-02-03) would surely be void forever. Should the UXGA/FlexView display ever fail, the warranty surely is worth the money, I assume. A possibility with eBay, yes, but only as a last resort.

And yet. I perhaps better consider this again... These days, as you have probably seen for yourself, the T4x forum is very active with threads about dead T42 motherboards, and I cannot help become more and more concerned about long-term reliability of my T42p (once it somehow gets fixed). Incidentally, yesterday I experienced myself a T42 coming back after repair (the one discussed in my thread T42 report 1802-error after being repaired? (with new mobo!)), and its motherboard may already be dead again (?!), after just making only one single boot at the user?! (”it may already be dead again” according to a service-technician I spoke to today at the repair-centre). So, you do indeed have a good point – not that I want to start repairing, on my own, the-still-covered-by-warranty-T42p (this I still don’t want to), but it could be a good idea simply to get hold of a functional, used T42p mainboard, and put on the shelf – just in case. For use when the warranty one day has expired for good. But: How much ”faith” would you have in buying something as ”fragile” like this from some totally unknown seller via eBay? You may risk paying, say, $200, for another ”dead” (in reality useless) motherboard, which only will make it into the BIOS, and no further, ever… Not much fun!

Well, I might be interested in following your suggestion – simply to obtain a (perfectly functioning!) T42p motherboard as a secret backup, for future use. According to System service parts - ThinkPad T40, T40p, T41, T41p, T42, T42p what I would be interested in is either FRU = 27K9912 (”System board assembly for ATI M10-128, Gigabit Ethernet with security chip/fingerprint sensor for T42 series”) or FRU = 27K9911 (”System board assembly for ATI M10-64, Gigabit Ethernet with security chip/fingerprint sensor for T42”). If the eBay-seller report back to you that the item for sale in the eBay auction mentioned is any of these, and if you/we have sufficient faith in that it IS working, I would appreciate a PM, and we can arrange the details. Thank you very much for your kind offer; it is certainly appreciated.

Johan,

What about just throwing out this old machine and get one of the new T6xp Penryn notebooks and enjoy it instead?

@ hdahl: Ooh, Henrik, I’m afraid that you don’t seem fully to realize my immense satisfaction with and my strong emotional attachment to my ”new” T42p, which I bought this spring and which I have only had the joy of using for a few, short (happy!) months. Would you, in my place, throw away an investment amounting to more than $1800 in total (T42p, the $ 220 extended warranty, shipment and subsequent HW upgrades), after less than 6 months of use? I am absolutely confident you surely wouldn’t (again, recall that the extended warranty, that I also purchased this spring, was confirmed in writing by IBM to cover also here in Denmark – so really why ditch the $1800 T42p, as you suggest?). I have been dreaming (secretly!) of a T42p for years, and I like it more than you seem to understand, and I wouldn’t want to switch it to any T6xp, Penryn or whatever. I simply want IBM to honor the warranty and repair my T42p so that I can have it back and become happy again – that’s all I want! You can keep all the T6xp’s for yourself – I just want one, single, wonderful 15" UXGA FlexView/IPS T42p.

Thanks for your suggestions, both of you. I am still in the midst of holding my fingers crossed, still hoping for some good news in a still not-too-distant future. I'll keep you posted.

PS: You are all very welcome to hold your fingers tightly crossed for me as well; I promise I'll let you know when you can start using them normally again!

Kind regards,

Johan

[Ogg]

I called IBM support Finland again...
...The guy who I had a conversation yesterday said, however, that they will not service a machine that is on an warranty extension / upgrade. Apparently that kind of warranty isn't covered by IWS.

Something doesn't seem right. What's the point in an IWS-extension/upgrade (the kind Johan has) if it doesn't apply to IWS? !!!

[Ogg]

Hello Johan.. Some time ago you posted this response from "the team":

"Subject: Re: CMT Case #PGxxx- ends at person complained against! [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

<snip>
The findings from the team are as follows:

Your PC is a legacy PC, it was a machine sold prior to the Lenovo aquistion and the warranty liability for the base warranty is owned by IBM - and the decision making for it.

The Upgraded warranty was determined to be valid in the country of purchase (US) and not international - this was IBM's ruling on their warranty policy.
<snip>

My question to you is.. did you actually purchase an IWS-extension? or was it just a base warranty extension? Seems to me that maybe that IBM has perhaps mislead you into the "wrong" upgrade warranty? In which case, the adjustment should then be arbitrary and corrected in your favour.

It just sounds suspicious when "the team" refers to your warranty as just "The Upgraded warranty" above and excludes its international feature! In otherwords.. what's the point in an IWS uprade if it isn't international anymore?

Since you have something in writing from IBM confirming the international feature of your warranty, and since you know that "International Warranty Service (IWS) enables customers who travel with or relocate any IWS-eligible IBM product to receive warranty service in any country where their product is sold and serviced"... why not simply visit the nearest country that WILL service your machine. Shame on Demark IBM for excluding its own citizens.

[jjames55]

… and what I still also cannot help wonder about is this: How are folks (IBM-customers) in other European countries treated in matters like this?? If a person in, say, England or Spain or Greece or Finland, buys a ThinkPad from the USA, is it then not covered by IWS in that particular country (although is is entitled to this, according to the IBM IWS-site)?? Where will the IWS actually be honered in such case?? Is this an IBM/Denmark issue only??

Hi johan, Sorry about all your problems. Some years ago i talked to some IBM service representatives in denmark regarding a still warranted machine i contemplated importing from the US, wether it would be warranted in Denmark?

The answer was clearly 'no'. Bc. of the very high price on thinkpads in denmark, there are some companies doing so-called parallel importing of machines from around the globe and selling them way cheaper than IBM can (laptops.dk comes to mind), this of cause was not to IBMs liking as they sell the machines with a warranty that IBM in denmark then has to honour, but has seen no income for. So IBM takes a special stand on machines not originally bought in Denmark.

But contrary to your experience i was told if i personally buy a machine and has the original invoice it would be no problem to have it serviced, but machines parallel imported by a company, they would not service - i guess things change.

That said i have had some machines bought inside EU serviced, and have had no problems.

Re. Servicegruppen, i have had mixed experiences with them, seems half the machines sent to them for repair needs some fixer-up repair afterwards, broken wrist-rest, missing screws etc. My all-time favourite was a way too long screw straight up through the wrist-rest, 2 mm longer and it would have cracked the LCD..

regards,
jesper james

[Johan]

I called IBM support Finland again...
...The guy who I had a conversation yesterday said, however, that they will not service a machine that is on a warranty extension / upgrade. Apparently that kind of warranty isn't covered by IWS.

Something doesn't seem right. What's the point in an IWS-extension/upgrade (the kind Johan has) if it doesn't apply to IWS? !!!

@ Ogg: This thread has probably now become so long/extensive, that I better need to summarize a few, key facts – which will also answer your questions:

1. The T42p that I bought was still within its three-year base warranty period, when all this happened (and still is within this period). The extended warranty, that was purchased from IBM/USA, will extend (!) this warranty beyond the three-year period… and up to five-years from the original date where the T42p was first sold by IBM. This information is also in the top of this thread (on the previous page), in my very first post.

2. To the best of my knowledge (and, believe me, I have been searching a LOT!), there is no such thing as an “IWS-extension/upgrade”. There is a) Base warranty, there is b) Extended warranty and there is c) IWS-coverage. Whether a specific (in-warranty) ThinkPad is eligible for IWS can be checked at IBM’s International warranty service (IWS) page. This IWS-page does not distinguish between ThinkPad’s still being covered under their base-warranty, or ThinkPad’s covered by an extended warranty. Similarly, IBM’s Warranty Lookup page does not distinguish between base-warranty and extended warranty; either the ThinkPad is in warranty, or it is not. Checking the warranty status there for my T42p today, it says: “This product has a five year limited warranty which includes a warranty upgrade. This product is entitled to parts and labor and is entitled to IBM EZServ”.

3. My problem, at this time, has nothing to do with the extended warranty that I have purchased from IBM. This extended warranty will not come into play until after the expiration of the present, initial three-year base-warranty. This initial three-year warranty expiration date is 2008-02-03. This information is also in the top of this thread (on the previous page), in my very first post.

4. The question you ask hence, I believe, is: Will a ThinkPad be covered by IWS, if being beyond the base-warranty expiration, but if now being under an extended warranty? This question was asked to the IBM/USA extended-warranty seller at the time of the purchase – and the seller answered: Yes. This question was also asked to the IBM-Support/UK (after I had received the T42p in Denmark) – who also answered: Yes. This information is also in the top of this thread (on the previous page), in my very first post.

The reasons why I believe that IBM/Denmark deny to honor BOTH the base-warranty which my T42p surely is covered under, AND why they also deny to honor the extended warranty - when it comes into effect in a few months; these reasons are discussed in my previous post of Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:34 pm (please see the reply to hdahl).

Hello Johan.. Some time ago you posted this response from "the team":

"Subject: Re: CMT Case #PGxxx- ends at person complained against! [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

<snip>
The findings from the team are as follows:

Your PC is a legacy PC, it was a machine sold prior to the Lenovo aquistion and the warranty liability for the base warranty is owned by IBM - and the decision making for it.

The Upgraded warranty was determined to be valid in the country of purchase (US) and not international - this was IBM's ruling on their warranty policy.
<snip>

My question to you is.. did you actually purchase an IWS-extension? or was it just a base warranty extension? Seems to me that maybe that IBM has perhaps misled you into the "wrong" upgrade warranty? In which case, the adjustment should then be arbitrary and corrected in your favor.

It just sounds suspicious when "the team" refers to your warranty as just "The Upgraded warranty" above and excludes its international feature! In other words.. what's the point in an IWS upgrade if it isn't international anymore?

Since you have something in writing from IBM confirming the international feature of your warranty, and since you know that "International Warranty Service (IWS) enables customers who travel with or relocate any IWS-eligible IBM product to receive warranty service in any country where their product is sold and serviced"... why not simply visit the nearest country that WILL service your machine. Shame on Demark IBM for excluding its own citizens.

@ Ogg: Again, what you ask for is already answered in the beginning of this thread (or just above this): The extended warranty was P/N 69P9201 5 Year Depot 9x5 Next Business Day, which was purchased directly from IBM/USA. If you select this link, and choose the Important Legal Information at the bottom, this will take you to all the ”fine print” applying to this very specific extended warranty package. Now, if looking under point 19, it here says:

19. International Warranty Service is available in any country in which this product is sold and serviced. Service delivery methods and parts availability vary by country, may be different from that in the country of purchase, and are subject to change without notice. Fees and restrictions may apply in some countries.

Does this mean that IWS will and SHOULD cover my T42p, here in Denmark? Yes, absolutely, because the Danish derivative of 2373-Q1U, being the 2373-Q1G (having a Danish keyboard), was certainly sold in Denmark (according to a Dec. 2004 IBM-pricelist that I have). Of course, IBM/Denmark may (in principle?) do whatever they want with reference to this nice, ”open” clause: ”.. and restrictions may apply in some countries.” You need to be lawyer to understand what it really says (or what is possible?) here.

IBM/USA did not mislead me – recall that they confirmed in writing (!!) that IWS for the extended warranty would also be available in Denmark. And: Recall that IBM-Support/UK confirmed the same (also in writing). No one is being misled here, in my opinion – except, unfortunately, IBM/Denmark. At least until they are taken to a Danish court.

As for your question about going to the nearest country to obtain IWS there; the idea is (in principle) good… but how can you be sure that the other country won’t just say the same as IBM/Denmark did? Oh, well – I better get ready to travel with or relocate a bit… I wonder where this journey will ever be ending?

… and what I still also cannot help wonder about is this: How are folks (IBM-customers) in other European countries treated in matters like this?? If a person in, say, England or Spain or Greece or Finland, buys a ThinkPad from the USA, is it then not covered by IWS in that particular country (although is entitled to this, according to the IBM IWS-site)?? Where will the IWS actually be honored in such case?? Is this an IBM/Denmark issue only??

Hi johan, Sorry about all your problems. Some years ago i talked to some IBM service representatives in Denmark regarding a still warranted machine i contemplated importing from the US, wether it would be warranted in Denmark?

The answer was clearly 'no'. Bc. of the very high price on thinkpads in denmark, there are some companies doing so-called parallel importing of machines from around the globe and selling them way cheaper than IBM can (laptops.dk comes to mind), this of cause was not to IBMs liking as they sell the machines with a warranty that IBM in denmark then has to honour, but has seen no income for. So IBM takes a special stand on machines not originally bought in Denmark.

But contrary to your experience i was told if i personally buy a machine and has the original invoice it would be no problem to have it serviced, but machines parallel imported by a company, they would not service - i guess things change.

That said i have had some machines bought inside EU serviced, and have had no problems.

Re. Servicegruppen, i have had mixed experiences with them, seems half the machines sent to them for repair needs some fixer-up repair afterwards, broken wrist-rest, missing screws etc. My all-time favourite was a way too long screw straight up through the wrist-rest, 2 mm longer and it would have cracked the LCD..

regards,
jesper james

@ jjames55: Hello, Jesper, another brave Dane showing up here to support me; heartly welcome to the club!

What you explain about Danish (non-IBM/Lenovo) parallel-import of ThinkPad’s I am already well aware of; I actually commented that in my previous post (the one of Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:34 pm), in my reply to hdahl. The same issue may perhaps be the case in other European countries; I have no idea of this. With respect to what various IBM employees says about warranty coverage (incl. IWS), this seems to be quite different; some say something, other say the contrary – as very evident from this thread… pointing to what I have come to believe: This issue is so tricky and confusing that many answer without knowing what really apply. While other make their own rules. Try ask, say, five different ”qualified” IBM-employees about this, and then make a majority vote. And then continue asking until the answers are to your advantage. And good luck with this, very interesting, little investigation!

About the reputation of the Danish IBM-service provider ”ServiceGruppen”, I recently had another (fortunately genuine Danish!) T42 for repair there, and it came back and not wanting to boot – as discussed in the thread T42 report 1802-error after being repaired? (with new mobo!) – so, well… I am also not that impressed by them so far.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As a supplement to the above, I have searched a great deal after IBM’s specific, detailed legal information covering in detail their international warranty coverage on ThinkPad’s. I have found many relevant documents which, in my interpretation, all support my view. If of interest to any, please read on!

First, there is a true repository of information in the IBM Announcement Letters. If searching there with ”Type of content” = Announcement letter” and ”Contents” = ”international warranty service” then e.g. hit nr. 29 is International service available for ThinkPlus and Lenovo Care Maintenance Services, United States Hardware Announcement 106-781, October 24, 2006, document ENUS106-781.PDF which amongst other things says:

Lenovo™ honors international support for Think Plus and Lenovo Care Maintenance Services for notebook systems. When you register your ThinkPlus or Lenovo Care Maintenance Service, you will automatically be entitled to international support offered by Lenovo.

The document Services Announcement 601-034
September 25, 2001 - International Warranty Service Offering Now Available Without Registration, document
ENUS601-034.PDF says:

Overview
IBM has enhanced the International Warranty Service (IWS) offering to allow customers who travel with or relocate any IWS-eligible machines to receive warranty service without the requirement of registering their machines for IWS.
IWS Coverage
This no-charge service offering applies to all IWS-eligible machines.
- Under IWS, customers may obtain warranty service throughout the machine's warranty period in any country in which the machine (as identified by the four-digit machine type) is sold and serviced.
- Warranty service may be performed by IBM or IBM resellers approved to perform warranty service.
- The method of service delivery (for example, depot, customer carry-in repair (CCR), or IBM on-site repair (IOR)) in the destination country may be different from the method provided in the country in which the machine was purchased. (Service delivery method is subject to local practice. IBM reserves the right to change or modify its service delivery methods by country at any time without notice.)
- The warranty period observed will be that of the country in which the product was purchased.

… in other words (as indicated by the title of the document), no registration is any longer necessary to be entitled for IWS.

The document New IBM ThinkPad T42p notebooks with integrated fingerprint reader technology - IBM United States Hardware Announcement 104-407 - October 20, 2004 - ENUS104-407.PDF says:

International Warranty Service (IWS):

IWS is available during the warranty period to customers who travel or relocate to countries where their computer is sold and serviced by IBM or IBM resellers authorized to perform warranty service. Eligible IBM computers are identified by their four-digit machine type.

and (under ”Maintenance services”) it is added:

Warranty service upgrade:

During the warranty period, warranty service upgrade provides an enhanced level of on-site service for an additional charge. A warranty service upgrade must be purchased during the warranty period and is for a fixed term (duration). It is not refundable or transferable and may not be prorated. If required, IBM will provide the warranty service upgrade enhanced level of on-site service acquired by the customer. Service levels are response time objectives and are not guaranteed.

…and:

International Service for ThinkPads: International Service for ThinkPads is a hardware repair service for customers who have purchased an IBM warranty service upgrade, maintenance services, or package offerings. This service is provided at no additional charge. International service is available wherever IBM sells and services ThinkPad products. Customers are required to register for this service.

(note that my 2373-Q1U is mentioned in this letter). Also note that the extended warranty package I purchased (69P9201) is listed in this document as a ”ServicePac for warranty and maintenance”.

In the document International Service Enhancement for IBM ThinkPads - Services Announcement - March 24, 1998 - Announcement Letter Number: 698-019 it says:

At a Glance
International Service Enhancement for IBM ThinkPads includes:
- Hardware repair service at no additional charge
- Service in countries where ThinkPads are sold by IBM and serviced by IBM Product Support Services
Overview
International Service Enhancement for IBM ThinkPads is a hardware repair service now available for customers who have purchased a warranty service upgrade or a maintenance agreement from IBM.
Service Provided
- At no additional charge as part of all current or new IBM maintenance service agreements.
- Customers are required to register for this service.
- In all countries where the ThinkPad (R) machine type (as designated by its 4-digit number) is sold and serviced by IBM.

In document Machine warranties and license information - Version 8: For machines shipped from April 2004 to August 2006 it says (on page 2):

Part 1 - General Terms, Govering Law:
Both you and IBM consent to the application of the laws of the country in which you acquired the Machine to govern, interpret, and enforce all of your and IBM's rights, duties, and obligations arising from, or relating in any manner to, the subject matter of this Statement of Limited Warranty, without regard to conflict of law pinciples.

Which in my interpretation mean that a ThinkPad bought in the USA is bound by these terms applying for the USA. Then: Did I buy my T42p in the USA? Well, the T42p was there, the seller was there, the money was paid there – so I would say: Yes, I bought it in the USA.

Well, there is much of all this legal stuff. In my interpretation, IWS should cover ThinkPads that are bought in the USA in all countries listed as being eligible for IWS-coverage.

Bottom line? IWS-coverage really ought to apply for ThinkPad’s bought in the USA, provided they are eligble for the IWS-coverage. The IWS-coverage also ought to apply both for the base warranty and for any extended warranty. This is how I am reading all this (and much more, not referenced here). Wonder how a Court would rule in this case? Perhaps we shall see some day!

End of all this boring legal stuff. I am most likely newer becoming a lawyer! Update will follow when any news become available. And, again: Thank you for all the continued support. I wish we could make a vote here against IBM – then we; the forum.thinkpads.com community would surely win!!

Best regards,

Johan

[RealBlackStuff]

Any further developments in this Saga?

[Johan]

Dear all,

Time has come for yet an update – and this time it is (finally and fortunately!) better news than for a long, long time: After having been “dead” for more than 2 months (!), my dear T42p is now back and alive!

Through an exceptionally friendly, completely unselfish and in all respects outstandingly helpful forum member, living elsewhere in Europe, I finally managed to have my dear T42p repaired. This was a pretty long journey that I (and the T42p) had to take – both in time and distance. But the outcome is ever so pleasant: It works wonderfully – as we all know (most) T42p indeed do! – and each time I use it, it reminds me of this fantastic forum, and it reminds me of all the help and borderless friendliness I have received here. It is such a pleasure to “hang out” here, among such kind and always helpful forum members… I am filled with gratitude to you, all you friends – Worldwide! - who have offered and provided me so much kind help and so many valuable advices. I am also grateful simply for the existence of this forum – which has allowed me space to ask for help; this forum which through its entire “spirit”, through all the so pleasantly serious, knowledgeable and mature administrators and moderators and – of course also – not the least through all its likewise many, many serious, knowledgeable and mature members keeps attracting more such humans – who all, I am certain, find this “spirit” creating such a pleasant atmosphere for us to gather in. I can’t say it better than this, so if you haven’t got the point I am trying to convey, please read this paragraph again.

So, only because of the existence of THIS very forum… here is one happy Danish ThinkPad’er.

Thank you. Honestly. All of you. And what a pleasure – having found this place.

All the best.

Johan

[p78]

awesome news Johan !
long life to your T42P !

[RealBlackStuff]

That's great news, Johan. Now tell us what really happened!

[Johan]

That's great news, Johan. Now tell us what really happened!

I understand that there is an interest for yet an update – including all details of ”who” and ”where” and ”what”, so here it is:

As to the ”who” and ”where” part: The forum-member here who so unselfishly helped me was andyP – who is in Germany. I have already said this, but it absolutely deserves to be mentioned again: That Andrew is a rare kind of person – all the help he offered me. I already knew that there existed English gentlemen; now I also know that there are Scottish gentlemen!

”What” happened – from a purely technical point of view – was this (this is the error report I handed in together with the T42p itself to the Danish IBM-repair sub-contractor, ”ServiceGruppen”):

Initial error: The T42p would not resume from hibernation; fan started up at medium speed and remained there, HDD started up, but display remained black. Did not respond to keyboard or mouse. Only option was to power-off (pressing ”Power” for 5 secs).

Many later attempts to start up again resulted in the same error: The fan started up and remained at constant medium speed (in contrast to normally, where the would fan spin up to highest speed but shortly after go to lowest speed while POST continues), HDD started up but the display remained all black; no ”IBM splash screen”, no Windows boot, no HDD-activity (no ”ticking”, and no HDD-LED activity). No beeps (never had any during this entire problem period), no response to keyboard or mouse. Only option: Power-down again using ”Power-switch” for 5 secs.

Many subsequent trials to boot resulted in the same behavior. In all cases it was NOT possible to enter into the BIOS and neither booting from the HDD or from the CD-ROM was possible. The display was always totally black. This error behavior is completely independent of whether the HDD is present or not, and also independent of whether the CD-ROM and/or battery is mounted or not. This strongly indicates that the error has nothing with the HDD to do.

A few days later, the machine will apparently boot normal, and now the IBM ThinkPad-logo (splash-screen) is shown. If, at this time, by hitting the F1-key, it was possible to enter into the BIOS, but I never got that far; the machine froze as shown on its way into the BIOS (with the image shown: “Entering IBM BIOS Setup Utility”). Only available option again: Pressing “Power” for 5 secs.

The HDD (the original Hitachi HTS726060M9AT00) had shortly before been completely checked using Windows (“Properties”, “Tools”, “Error-checking”, “Check now”, with both “Check disk options” enabled: “Automatically fix file system errors” and “Scan for and attempt recovery of bad sectors”), and without reporting any errors at all. Furthermore, I have run the Hitachi ”Drive Fitness Test” tool (the advanced test) on this HDD, and no errors were found (the DTF-tool was run from a bootable USB DOS-diskette).

In addition to using this Hitachi HDD, I have also used a software-wise identical (cloned) 100 GB Seagate Momentus 7200.1 (ST910021A) HDD. This disk is less than six months old, was bought as brand new, has been very little used, and had also previously been tested completely error-free using Windows. The T42p would behave exactly identical using this Seagate HDD; no boot, no IBM splash-screen, not possible to enter into the BIOS.

Because of these two HW-wise perfectly functioning HDD’s giving rise to exactly the same behavior, I don’t believe that the HDD’s should have physical errors. The SW on the HDD was created from the R&R media, with all Windows updates etc.

Then, a few days later, with the HDD mounted again, it was possible to boot, and when pressing the F11-key under boot, the T42p went into the R&R partition. While in the “R&R-state” asking for “System Information”, the T42p froze again.

On Sat./Sun. 17/18 Nov., I carried out additional, extensive PC-Doctor tests:

RAM DIMM’s “reseated”, checked if any dust inside the T42p (nothing – as clean as newborn!). Ran two passes of ”Check System Health” w/IBM’s ”PC Doctor” (ver. 5.00.4329.01): During first pass a single RAM error was reported, but at second pass no errors were found (?!).

Subsequently, two additional ”Check System Health” was run w/IBM’s ”PC Doctor”: First test competed without errors, second test reported a VRAM-error (?!).

On Sunday Nov. 18: Ran 2 more ”Check System Health w/”PC Doctor”: First test was run with no errors (!), but during second pass the T42p gave a ”fatal Windows blue DOS screen”, then booted spontaneously and at reboot gave the messages : ”The system has been restored after a serious error” .

After this, the machine would allow “PC Doctor” to start, but crashed again, leaving a blank (black) display, but the CD-ROM was ”on” (the LED would light, but no CD-ROM was in the drive), the CPU still had power (could be felt because of the heat on the bottom), but no fan activity (!!), and no response to keys or mouse.

The problems are not related to running off battery or running off the mains, or having the battery mounted or not. The battery is in good condition.

On all later attempts to run ”PC Doctor” the laptop would crash and freeze each time. Further error-hunt was aborted.

Then I packed up and handed in the T42p for repair to ”ServiceGruppen” here in Denmark. As already explained earlier in this thread, a week later I received their verdict from them: ”The motherboard needs to be replaced” (and IBM/Denmark would not honor this IWS warranty-repair etc.). After that, I went out to them and picked up my still-dead T42p. Subsequently, I started this thread and received Andrew’s offer for help. Meanwhile, the T42p was left ”as is” in the box, on my floor – I didn’t play with it, because ServiceGruppen had confirmed what I had already expected: That it needed a new motherboard.

Then, after Andrew had agreed to ”give it a try” in his end, I sent it down (on Jan. 3) to him in Dusseldorf. After agreement, I neither included my HDD, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, battery or power-supply (to keep the weight and hence shipment-costs down). Upon receipt of my T42p, Andrew wanted to verify the error for himself, and he therefore got a HDD of his own, a CD-RW/DVD-ROM, battery and a power-supply, hooked everything up in the T42p, ran a full System Installation (using the ThinkVantage Rescue & Recovery CD-media), and discovered… no errors! Everything ran perfectly! Then, he started flexing the T42p, to see if this was perhaps an intermittent error (there are reports of this e.g. in the thread t42 shuts down when i move it – that the ”loose GPU error” will at some time first show up, and then may go away again for a period, and may then strike again, either intermittently again or permanently). However, Andrew was simply unable to provoke ANY errors… it just ran and ran and ran completely stable (all tests, PC-Doctor, memtest86+ etc.). Perfect ThinkPad! Then, Andrew informed me about this, and asked what to do then… either return the ”good again” laptop to me or do what? We then agreed that I should also send to him all the parts I had taken out of it, before I shipped the T42p itself … a small possibility could be that one of my hardware parts would have caused the error, we thought? So, I sent down to him in a subsequent shipment my two HDD’s (the original 7k60 Hitachi and the 100 GB Seagate mentioned above), the battery, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, the power supply… AND a 1 GB PC-2700 stick of RAM that I had taken out before I handed in the T42p in for repair to the Danish repair-shop, ServiceGruppen.

The reason why I took out this extra RAM stick (before handing the T42p it for repair here in Denmark), was that I have read on the forum that some repair shops from time to time forget to mount such extra RAM if swapping a defective mainboard with a new one – so I thought that I would rather not risk this (particularly since ServiceGruppen already has a somewhat mixed reputation according to what other forum members have reported here, as also evident from various comments in this thread). Moreover, since the RAM had already been thoroughly tested by me, using “PC Doctor”, as described above, and most of the time had passed with no errors – and since the T42p even while this (”no RAM errors”) would still froze/booted/crashed, I believed that this RAM was error-free. This additional 1 GB RAM was delivered and mounted by ThinkPad World, before they sold the T42p to the forum member whom I bought it from. This RAM was manufactured by ”SimpleTech”.

OK, Andrew received all these parts; HDD, CD-RW, power-supply, extra RAM etc., mounted them… and taa-daa! The error was back again! Exactly as before! Long story short (or, shorter!), it was and is the additional (ThinkPad World) 1 GB RAM that is root cause. If testing it with memtest86+ it will fail each time, either very fast or after a short while. After having received all parts back here from Andrew, I have played with PC Doctor and memtest86+ and the conclusion is absolutely clear: It is this 1 GB RAM that is defective. Each time it is in the laptop it will either not run or it will freeze at some point. Even when running memtest86+ from a bootable (DOS) USB-diskette the machine will freeze!! Once this #%¤&/#”(“#!!!! RAM is taken out, everything works perfectly. Hours of extensive memtest86+ or PC-Doctor RAM-tests on the 1 GB (IBM) RAM alone runs without problems (i.e. the RAM which originally came with this T42p from IBM, mfgr. Elpida).

But – the BIG question remain unanswered: When I handed the T42p in for repair to ServiceGruppen here in Denmark, there was ONLY the good, original 1 GB IBM RAM mounted; the 1 GB SimpleTech stick had already been taken out!?! And yet… yet ServiceGruppen declared in their error report to me that the motherboard needed to be replaced??!!??!! WHY ON EARTH DID THEY REPORT THIS?? It is completely beyond my imagination why they declared the T42p in need of a new mortherboard? What I continue to ask myself is: Did they actually even test it at all, or did they just believe my (quite detailed) error description? Recall that they issued a $120 invoice for: “Repair-inspection of laptop, service offer not accepted by customer, laptop picked up unrepaired by customer”. What did they actually ”inspect”, I wonder?? FAR out, I would certainly say! Think of all the troubles they could have saved me for, if just having tested the laptop in the condition the received it?? I truly don’t get it. Aaargh!!

So, although I had to go a long, hard (and also quite expensive…) route, the more I think of it, the more “happy” I am that the T42p actually NOT needed to be serviced by ServiceGruppen. The reason why I am HAPPY for this can perhaps even better be understood from this small, very recent (actually still on-going) “tale”:

Recently, on Dev. 28, another T42 (this one which is fortunately a genuine “Danish” ThinkPad, covered without discussion by Danish IBM-service) was handed in for repair to ServiceGruppen (dead USB-ports). About two weeks later it came back from ServiceGruppen with this report: “All OK, all PC-Doctor tests successfully passed”. Well, when received back and booted it reported a 1802-error, and then all systems halted!! (as described/discussed in the thread T42 report 1802-error after being repaired? (with new mobo!)). Well, too bad – back to repair at ServiceGruppen it went. Then, 10 days later it came back for the second time from ServiceGruppen with the report: “All OK, all PC-Doctor tests successfully passed” (no information about what was actually done?). Well, upon first boot when back for the second time… freeze!! WON’T BOOT AT ALL! Marvelous!! Then, on Friday, last week, it was handed in again for repair at ServiceGruppen now for the THIRD time (the same initial error!). I spoke to them on Friday (wanted to make sure that it was handed to some more experienced and careful technician this time), and I was told that the motherboard “had become unstable”. Wow – fantastic explanation… “had become unstable” through being switched on for a few times after receiving it back after the second repair? Very likely explanation…

And those guys Andrew fortunately saved me from getting deeper into the hands of! Of course, I would not necessarily having had to go through such a series of horror-repairs there, but still I hope that I shall never need to have them service any other ThinkPad of mine.

This was the full story! And the hero in the story was and is… andyP! And I owe you a lot, Andrew...

Best regards,

Johan

[Harryc]

Months and months of time, pages of forum threads, phone calls from Lenovo personnel, emails all over the world, (did you use satellite communication, trains, boats, planes?) all for a stick of RAM. Shame on you Johan ...LOL. I'm glad you got your T42 working ...

[Brad]

Great news.

What a truly worldwide community this forum is!

Brad

[ulrich.von.lich]

I'm glad your beloved T42p is now back in business. After all that you've been through, I hope it will be forever blessed.

Your story also makes me wonder how many T4 machines really have the MB flex issue. Those tech guys on the phone can always say the MB went bad when it's caused by something else they don't know.

[Ogg]

Then I packed up and handed in the T42p for repair to ”ServiceGruppen” here in Denmark. As already explained earlier in this thread, a week later I received their verdict from them: ”The motherboard needs to be replaced” (and IBM/Denmark would not honor this IWS warranty-repair etc.). After that, I went out to them and picked up my still-dead T42p. ...When I handed the T42p in for repair to ServiceGruppen here in Denmark, there was ONLY the good, original 1 GB IBM RAM mounted; the 1 GB SimpleTech stick had already been taken out!?! And yet… yet ServiceGruppen declared in their error report to me that the motherboard needed to be replaced??!!??!! WHY ON EARTH DID THEY REPORT THIS?? It is completely beyond my imagination why they declared the T42p in need of a new mortherboard? What I continue to ask myself is: Did they actually even test it at all, or did they just believe my (quite detailed) error description?

Obviously, the folks at SG are technically incompetent. They should have been able to duplicate the same error that andyP did by testing the unit with known good ram modules.

Recall that they issued a $120 invoice for: “Repair-inspection of laptop, service offer not accepted by customer, laptop picked up unrepaired by customer”. What did they actually ”inspect”, I wonder?? FAR out, I would certainly say!

The $120 bill is an insult, especially since they obviously did not identify the true cause of your TP's problems. SG shouldn't have been allowed to get away with that. If you were aware that their minimum charge would be $120 irregardless of findings, then fine. Otherwise, I would not have participated in paying that full amount to anyone!

Moreover, since the RAM had already been thoroughly tested by me, using “PC Doctor”, as described above, and most of the time had passed with no errors – and since the T42p even while this (”no RAM errors”) would still froze/booted/crashed, I believed that this RAM was error-free.

Ah.. "most of the time" is not good enough, and would have raised a reg flag with me!

Your TP sure took a long road to recovery for what seems to be such a simple problem. In one respect, I empathize with you knowing that your TP didn't need any major service work afterall. Glad to hear that the long journey is finally over!

..Ogg

[Johan]

Dear forum friends,

I thought I would “finish off” this story by sharing an additional bit of good news (and perhaps also useful information for someone?); how I managed to get the “Mack warranty” to replace the 1 GB RAM module which turned out to be the root cause for all my troubles.

Just to quickly summarize: The T42p discussed in this thread is a model 2373-Q1U. As evident, it is originally delivered with (“only”) 1 GB RAM by IBM. Now, the shop which (via eBay) sold the T42p was ThinkPad World who had upgraded the T42p with an additional 1 GB RAM module – to its full 2 GB capacity. ThinkPad World sell (most or all?) their eBay-ThinkPads with a “3 Year Mack Computer International Extended Warranty”, incl. my T42p. But... what is this "Mack" warranty really, and what does it cover?? Is it useful or not when in trouble? Let us first see what it is claimed to be:

MACK 3 YEAR EXTENDED WARRANTY (WORLDWIDE COVERAGE)

Your equipment will be restored to proper operating condition at no charge to you. This includes all warranted parts and labor. Such service, repair or adjustment of the equipment is assured the original purchaser only and relates only to the components named and serial numbers recorded on original warranty. This warranty applies only if equipment has not been misused, tampered with, modified or damaged as a result of accident, liquid, impact or lack of proper care as indicated in the manual of operations. Warranty does not extend to installation or adjustment at the user's location, and it does not include accessory expansion boards, drives, all batteries any software programs, or sensitive information data on your system and other accessories. This limited warranty is transferable for a $20.00 administrative fee.

In most cases, Mack will refer you to a Lenovo/IBM Authorized service center near you, however Mack reserves the right to have you (the customer), send the defective merchandise to their service center. International customers (Outside of the US) will always be referred to a Lenovo/IBM Authorized Service Center. Mack will undertake all costs involved with repairing your defective product.

Limited warranty applies only to products(s) specified herein. It does not cover software malfunction, or other expenses or consequential damages. Software release must accompany unit.

OK, so far, so good - this sounds nice and all... but, as many forum members will probably have read, this third-party warranty, which is offered by Mack Camera & Video Service, does have a somewhat mixed reputation. However, it is quite difficult to find actual feedback (user experience!) from e.g. ThinkPad-owners, who have tried to invoke their Mack-warranty. So, well, as I knew I had this Mack warranty, and as I believed it should cover the failing part (1 GB RAM, not delivered by IBM and hence of course also not covered by any IBM-warranty!), I therefore thought… well, why not give it a shot; I have nothing to loose? So, this is what I did – and how I did it, and what happened!

Subject: Mack Camera warranty No. xxx (IBM ThinkPad T42p laptop); bad/failing 1 GB RAM module detected

Dear Sirs,

With reference to Mack Camera warranty contract no. xxx (warranty type 1006), covering an IBM ThinkPad T42p laptop, model 2373-Q1U, with serial number xxx – this warranty as confirmed per your mail of May 22, 2007, I hereby kindly inform that I have unfortunately detected that a 1 GB RAM module in this ThinkPad has developed a hardware error, and I therefore kindly request MACK Camera to replace this RAM module at your earliest convenience.

The T42p laptop was bought from ThinkPad World (= GREAT AMCO, Inc.), and was delivered by them with 2 x 1 GB RAM modules; one original 1 GB IBM-branded module, which was mounted by IBM (RAM mfrg. Elpida), and one 1 GB module which was subsequently mounted by ThinkPad World (RAM mfgr. SimpleTech). The failing module is the SimpleTech.

For your information, I have attached below screen dumps from the IBM “PC Doctor” diagnostics program, showing that the original IBM Elpida 1 GB RAM module is working perfectly (this was tested when used/mounted alone in the T42p). Also, I have attached images taken with a digital camera while using the “memtest86+” RAM-testing program to test the bad SimpleTech module. The reason for not using “PC Doctor” also to test the bad SimpleTech module is that if the SimpleTech module is mounted in the T42p, then the laptop will either freeze while booting Windows XP or it will crash before PC Doctor can even be launched. The only possibility to test the bad SimpleTech RAM module therefore was to boot the T42p from a USB-diskette drive, and run the memtest86+ program from the bootable DOS diskette (memtest86+ was downloaded from http://www.memtest.org/). As evident from the memtest86+ screen-shots, the SimpleTech RAM is failing big time. Kindly note that I have also had a professional IBM reseller verify that the SimpleTech module is indeed defective.

If you wish to have me return the bad SimpleTech module to Mack Camera, kindly inform me of how to proceed with this – and in such case provide me with a RMA. Please inform if Mack Camera will reimburse my postage expenses, if you wish the bad SimpleTech RAM module to be returned?

I would kindly like to emphasize that my personal, documented expenses (incl. shipping forth and back) for having a repair-shop diagnose this error already amounts to more than $160,- (!). Because of this, I would very much appreciate if the failing 1 GB SimpleTech RAM module could be replaced by a higher quality brand, such as either original, tested IBM Elpida or a Crucial module (a Crucial part no. would be CT12864X335 with the following specifications: 1 GB, 200-pin SODIMM, DDR PC2700, CL=2.5, unbuffered, NON-ECC, DDR333, 2.5V, 128Meg x 64).

Thank you in advance for your understanding and hopefully willingness to honour this request.

Sincerely,

Then, Mack replied very quickly:

[quote="On Mon. Feb. 18, "Mack Camera Service""]Subject: Mack Camera warranty No. xxx (IBM ThinkPad T42p laptop); bad/failing 1 GB RAM module detected

Dear Customer,

Unfortunately, we would only cover the original RAM, we do not cover any RAM that has been added on to the unit. I have spoke to my manager and she would like to know if you know how much it would cost to replace the RAM. Please advise so we can be able to assist you better.

Thank you,
(xxx)
Mack Camera & Video Service[/quote]
Well, I was of course not quite satisfied with that reply (!), so…

Subject: Mack Camera warranty No. xxx (IBM ThinkPad T42p laptop); bad/failing 1 GB RAM module detected

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your rapid reply - I appreciate your fast attempts to solve this issue.

To very clearly emphasize, so that there shall be no confusion or any discussion:

1. The RAM that has failed was mounted in the laptop already when it was sold by ThinkPad World (if you wish, I can send a PDF-copy the eBay advertisement). This RAM was mounted by the seller = ThinkPad World (= GREAT AMCO Corp).

2. The Mack warranty was issued on the laptop as sold and delivered by ThinkPad World - in other words the warranty also cover the failing RAM in question, which was part of the laptop sold. If you wish, I can send a PDF-copy the eBay advertisement, clearly mentioning the amount of RAM in the laptop as sold, and clearly mentioning that the Mack warranty cover the laptop AS SOLD with the 2 GB RAM.

Based on the above facts, your comment about that Mack Camera "would only cover the original RAM, we do not cover any RAM that has been added on to the unit" is not relevant at all. It is beyond any discussion that the failing RAM is certainly covered by the Mack warranty. If you wish to have this confirmed by Thinkpad World, kindly call and ask for the owner, Maurice (9:00am - 7:00pm EST Monday - Saturday @ 212-965-1420).

A replacement 1 GB RAM module would e.g. be the Crucial already mentioned; Crucial part no. CT12864X335 which is e.g. available from Newegg at around $60 - see this Newegg link.

Thank you again for your kind efforts to solve this issue.

Sincerely,

(hey, beware that Newegg fortunately had a sale going on during those days, so the 1 GB RAM was only $60 as opposed to $80 now, while no-longer-on-sale. My luck!)

OK, they apparently didn’t quite disagree to this, because:

[quote="On Tue. Feb. 19, "Mack Camera Service""]Subject: Mack Camera warranty No. xxx (IBM ThinkPad T42p laptop); bad/failing 1 GB RAM module detected

Dear Johan,

Please fill out the attached International Service Request Form and email or fax it back with a copy of your bill of sale and warranty. My manager would like to review the bill of sale, so we can assist you better. Once I have the documentation I will email you immediately with how we can proceed.

Thank you,
(xxx)
Mack Camera & Video Service[/quote]
… and then I sent the ”complete package” via fax; all the necessary Mack forms filled out, the original eBay advertisement (which I had kept as a PDF-document), the original IBM packaging list (clearly indicating that only 1 GB had been delivered/mounted by IBM), original sales invoice from ThinkPad World (clearly indicating that the additional 1 GB had subsequently been mounted by ThinkPad World) etc. Then, I received this mail:

[quote="On Wed. Feb. 20, "Mack Camera Service""]Subject: Control Number #Nxxxx

Dear Johan,

I have received your fax and spoke to my manager regarding your case. The bill of sale indicates that a separate RAM was included, that is not the original RAM provided by the manufacturer with the unit. Our extended warranty only covers the original RAM provided by the manufacturer. My manager has stated that we will provide you with a one time courtesy replacement of the RAM. We are authorizing you to purchase the RAM, send us a copy of the paid invoice/receipt and we will reimburse you for the amount. If there should be a problem in the future, it will not be covered. If you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to reply back.

Thank you,
(xxx)
Mack Camera & Video Service[/quote]
Then I was of course very pleased, but had to inform Mack that RAM is about twice as expensive here in Denmark, as compared to in the USA, so buying from Newegg was of course the most advantageous (for Mack!). Unfortunately, Newegg won’t ship out of USA, so I therefore suggested that they (Mack) should order the RAM themselves from Newegg, and have it delivered to a friend of mine who is living in the USA, who could then forward it to me. Fortunately, Mack agreed to this, ordered from Newegg, and my friend in USA (the dear Sharon!) received the shipment the other day… so all in all, this is at least one example of a “happy ending” with Mack! My luck I didn't need to try convince them of a $1200 motherboard-repair/replacement... particularly if that would have been about $1200/$60 = 20 time more difficult!

And so now I hope that all my troubles are over for many years to come…

Best regards,

Johan

[RealBlackStuff]

Good for you, Johan! Sock it to 'em, you had every right and you used it well!

[Brad]

Nicely done Johan!

Doesn't Simpletech have a warranty also?

Brad