Am I the only one who would fork over 200+ for a real LCD?

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blynch · #1 Post by **blynch** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:26 am

I just don't understand how there is not enough demand for high quality lcds in today's market. Seems even desktop lcds are moving more and more towards crappy TN panels.

My T60p 14.1" sxga+ is a great machine, but docked in next to my 20WMGX IPS panel the screen looks like a piece of garbage. Seriously, I can hardly look at its dim washed out colors and terrible viewing angle.

I would quickly pay an extra $200-400 to have a good panel in my thinkpad. For something we constantly look at, why has the market decided that the screen should be the most outdated part on the entire computer? He certainly have the technology to have much better displays in notebooks.

//end rant

To be fair, the 20WMGX is one of the best looking screens I have used, but still the lcd on my thinkpad is by far its weakest quality and my only complaint besides the firegl sucking up all the battery life.

But seriously when will lenovo bless me with a led lit IPS or PVA panel in 14.1"? I know we had the 15" flexviews, but that size is too inconvenient for taking my thinkpad everywhere. 14.1" is my ideal size for mobility and usability.

dr_st · #2 Post by **dr_st** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:25 am

Yes, I would pay.

Yes, many Thinkpad users would pay.

No, it has nothing to do with what Lenovo wants. They don't control the LCD panel market. Even the 15" Flexview is gone.

nesnet · #3 Post by **nesnet** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:32 am

I would have no hesitation to paying a reasonable amount to upgrade the quality of current offerings.

Puppy · #4 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:21 am

No, you are not alone. Unfortunately there is no way to get decent notebook LCD display anymore. Horrible extra-low-quality TN craps everywhere

pianowizard · #5 Post by **pianowizard** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:04 am

I would pay $200 for a 14.1" IPS panel with 1600x1200 res, and $300 for one with 1920x1200. If it's only 1400x1050, I would rather stick with the 14.1" 1600x1200 TN screen of my T42.

bluemonk · #6 Post by **bluemonk** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:51 am

In case anyone is keeping track of this thread here is another vote for a better screen for a reasonable premium.

If anyone can do it I think Lenovo should be the one to pressure the LCD manufacturers because it is a win win situation for both. We know the technology exists, so the problem seems to be related to production costs and volume, but these are easily solvable if the price is right.

Many people already are heavily 'invested' in the Thinkpad style keyboards for its ergonomics, but imagine the following Lenovo could have if better displays were part of their superior features package.

Like the keyboard, probably even more so, LCD gets the most interactivity in a PC during a work day, so there would be many more people interested in this, if there is an effort to keep them better informed, ie better marketing.

Better LCD quality is where Lenovo could step in and grab the mobile niche for the long haul, instead of chickening out and going for the next quarter bottom line which looks like what they do now.

mattbiernat · #7 Post by **mattbiernat** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:39 am

instead of cow leather how about flexview for the 5K laptop?

badblood · #8 Post by **badblood** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:47 pm

Thing is its not whether Lenovo wants to put in a flexview 15.4 or 14.1 screen or not. The problem is noone is making those screens anymore. So as much as we like to blame Lenovo or any company for 'going cheap' on their lcd's , their options are limited to what the suppliers offer..in this case TN panels.

Our best hope is to see 14.1 and 15.4 LED screens coming to market and when that happens we can put the pressure on lenovo to use those screens but until then we're stuck with what we have. As much as I like to see Lenovo do that, I think nothing much will change until the big players (Dell) puts its marketing clout on the suppliers.

mattbiernat · #9 Post by **mattbiernat** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:20 am

badblood wrote: until the big players (Dell) puts its marketing clout on the suppliers.

isn't lenovo the 3rd biggest player??? so they do count. all they really have to do is advertise flexview like wide/super ultra bright dupler bright screens were advertised by apple and other companies. do whatever it takes to have socer mom, grandmom and kindergarden kids and apple funbois want to use flexview. again advertising advertising and advertising... doesn't coke work like that?

Keyone · #10 Post by **Keyone** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:28 am

Dammit! I voted no by accident cause I read the thread title and has "NO" in my head already... Didn't notice the actual poll question asked the opposite question lol... Count me in for yes

I would definitely pay a *reasonable* premium price for a great LCD. $200 is nothing for something I'll be using for at least 4 years.

On another note, there's definitely two things wrong here (as people have mentioned). First, Lenovo does not choose to buy crappy LCDs, but rather it's the manufacturers who do this. Second, LCD manufacturers choose not to do this because of profit! Whether you like it or not, many people (common consumers) will not pay that much extra for a premium screen - they just don't understand or care. For a manufacturer to invest extra money on better or different equipment just to make these screens for the "few" people like us who want it is unreasonable. They're most likely equipped for today's oh-so-great widescreen TVs and LCDs. Also, because of the more complex processes, the defect rate must be higher than the lower resolution screens.

*Please note the last sentence is my own assumption based on the fact that these screens would be much higher in pixels. I could easily be completely wrong!

Brad · #11 Post by **Brad** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:28 am

Yer preaching to the choir here.

Most forum members are ThinkPad enthusiasts and the few dollars more that these nice LCD's would cost is not much considering how much the ThinkPad would cost overall. Regular laptop users don't care about such things. They are more concerned about how much it costs and not the feature set. In my mind without the nicer screens one of the only other ThinkPad benifit is the support and it is a big benifit. I have said this many times before did you ever try to look up ANY information about other manufacturers laptops. Sony, Dell, and others. There support is virtually non existant. Not only are there HMM's out there for all of the recent IBM and then Lenovo's ThinkPad laptops they are available since day ONE!

Gone are the days of the $7,000 laptop which is why IBM probably sold the business.

Three cheers for ThinkPads! Long live ThinkPads!

And they do live forever, as long as you have spare parts.

Brad

pianowizard · #12 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:48 am

Brad wrote: try to look up ANY information about other manufacturers laptops. Sony, Dell, and others. There support is virtually non existant. Not only are there HMM's out there for all of the recent IBM

I've also said this many times: Dell and HP provide excellent HMMs on their websites, and anyone can download them!

#13 Post by **bill bolton** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:11 am

pianowizard wrote:Dell and HP provide excellent HMMs

They provide, at best, partial equivalents to a ThinkPad HMM!

Cheers,

Bill B.

mattbiernat · #14 Post by **mattbiernat** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:09 am

Keyone wrote: Whether you like it or not, many people (common consumers) will not pay that much extra for a premium screen - they just don't understand or care.

not true, i remember when apple started selling the ultra-brigt glossy screens for extra $200. they were selling quite well and finally they became the standard.

Brad · #15 Post by **Brad** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:27 am

I guess I haven't had the recent opportunity to work with the HP or Dell hardware and their websites. I do have a HP now that I need to look at so I may need their HMM.

I know for me Sony was the worst. I couldn't find any information anywhere. Somehow I got it done but I was really lucky.

You have opened my eyes, thanks!

Brad

ulrich.von.lich · #16 Post by **ulrich.von.lich** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:45 am

Brad wrote:And they do live forever, as long as you have spare parts.

I love the fact that you can order brand new parts for your legacy ThinkPads, even though it's possible their prices haven't come down a bit for years. (i.e. They are charging more than $1000 for an A31p LCD and $1500 for a PM 780 CPU). I've also noticed all ThinkPad parts are still sold by IBM currently. I don't know how long it will last. And I do hope Lenovo will not put an end to it.

I had been aware of the poor screen quality on most of ThinkPads but I still bought one. Some ThinkPad unique features made me giving up the idea of getting a Sony or Dell. Besides, (maybe it's only me) I don't think I would feel very comfortable using a 180 degree viewable screen in public, and I rarely watch dvd on it. But I agree, it would be nicer to be given the choice.

barrywohl · #17 Post by **barrywohl** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:45 am

HMM = Hardware Maintenance Manual ?

Brad wrote: Not only are there HMM's out there for all of the recent IBM and then Lenovo's ThinkPad laptops they are available since day ONE!
Brad

Anyway, my dream ThinkPad would have a 15.4 inch WUXGA panel with the brightness and clarity of the 15 inch UXGA panels on my R50p computers.

Popliteus · #18 Post by **Popliteus** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:44 pm

I forked over $290 - but for a 22" widescreen - I figure it's worth it more at home IMO unless you're using your laptop 8 hours a day

Crunch · #19 Post by **Crunch** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Absolutely and without a second's hesitation. I've had many Thinkpads, and once I got my first IPS LCD, there is no going back for me. I'll hold on to my current T60p for years if necessary. I can always upgrade the CPU up to a T7600.

#20 Post by **aamsel** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:23 pm

So, what kind of panels does Apple use on the 15" Macbook Pro, either the glossy or matte panel? Is it anything special? I have often thought that glossy-type panels provided better image detail, but that using them for an extended period of time would cause more eye fatigue than the matte screens. To me, that has always been the trade off between the two types.

I have a 14.1" SXGA+ Hydis panel on my T60 which was supposed to be the best supplier at the time that I bought it, but I would gladly pay more for a superior panel. What could be more important than keyboard and screen quality?

Andrew
Austin, TX

mattbiernat wrote:...not true, i remember when apple started selling the ultra-brigt glossy screens for extra $200. they were selling quite well and finally they became the standard.

mattbiernat · #21 Post by **mattbiernat** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:40 am

aamsel wrote:So, what kind of panels does Apple use on the 15" Macbook Pro, either the glossy or matte panel? Is it anything special? I have often thought that glossy-type panels provided better image detail, but that using them for an extended period of time would cause more eye fatigue than the matte screens.

that's the point! advertise enough and you can sell anything to people. and i also used glossy on a bunch of occasions but could never get used to is as well. something tells me that I will stick with older thinkpads....

#22 Post by **erik** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:58 am

i'd pay up to $1000 more for a 15.4" WUXGA IPS display with 8-bit color, 80+% gamut, 1000+:1 contrast, and 300+ cd/m^2 brightness so long as all of those requirements are met.

this topic came up over a week ago on the lenovo forum. my full response is here.

Crunch · #23 Post by **Crunch** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:10 am

erik, I read your response on lenovo's site, and co-incidentally, that's what I'm reminded of every time I watch a DVD on my t60p....my HDTV back home.

If we make enough noise, maybe the next T series will have IPS again!???

The Thinkvision L22x has something similar, right? What is that again and how does it stack up against the Thinkpads? Cause I think I know what I want for Christmas...

madcow · #24 Post by **madcow** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:40 am

I agree. the LCD screens that come with thinkpads are terrible. I have seen other's laptop with brighter screen. I don't get why a thinkpad has such a bad LCD compare to let's say Sony laptops.

pianowizard · #25 Post by **pianowizard** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:01 am

madcow wrote:I don't get why a thinkpad has such a bad LCD compare to let's say Sony laptops.

Because Lenovo refuses to use glossy screen?

#26 Post by **aamsel** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:46 am

mattbiernat wrote:
aamsel wrote:So, what kind of panels does Apple use on the 15" Macbook Pro, either the glossy or matte panel? Is it anything special? I have often thought that glossy-type panels provided better image detail, but that using them for an extended period of time would cause more eye fatigue than the matte screens.
that's the point! advertise enough and you can sell anything to people. and i also used glossy on a bunch of occasions but could never get used to is as well. something tells me that I will stick with older thinkpads....

Thanks, but...
What I really wanted to know is: what kind of panels does Apple use on the 15" Macbook Pro, and are they anything special?

They now have LED-lit panels, what technology are the panels themselves?

Also, what panels do SONY use?

Is anyone currently using IPS technology in their laptop panels or anything better than TN?

Andrew
Austin, TX

#27 Post by **erik** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:22 pm

aamsel wrote:What I really wanted to know is: what kind of panels does Apple use on the 15" Macbook Pro, and are they anything special?

i believe they are LG and samsung. see this thread for some info on how hit-or-miss their panels can be with color tint. outside of being brightly-lit thanks to having an LED backlight, i didn't find them to be very good with color accuracy. they're better than my T61p's WUXGA panel but not by much. i'd bet that my T61p's panel would look worlds better if it had an LED backlight.

#28 Post by **aamsel** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:32 pm

Yes, there is always the "roulette" that you play with all major manufacturers, including Lenovo with what panel, and other parts go into your notebook.

I have no doubt that LED backlighting would look better and be more ecological.

Lately, I have been staring at the Hydis 14.1" SXGA+ on my T60 and wondering if my eyes were going out! It is the only weak point on an otherwise stellar laptop.

It is well within warranty, but I don't know what I would tell them, and it sounds like I would not get anything better unless I dropped down to XGA, and I am quite sure that they won't change it for a lower-resolution panel. I wouldn't expect them to, either.

Andrew
Austin, TX

Crunch · #29 Post by **Crunch** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:16 pm

I doubt you can get anything other than what's in your particular Thinkpad, even it would cost them less. Please post back if you decide to call them. I'd be interested in the outcome. Good luck!

Puppy · #30 Post by **Puppy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:04 pm

aamsel wrote:Is anyone currently using IPS technology in their laptop panels or anything better than TN?

No.

BTW BoeHydis still have 15" AFFS SXGA+ and UXGA panels in their catalog http://www.boehydis.com/eng/03_products/product_03.asp Note the comment "Mass production from Sep. '06". Where is the problem after all ?

Am I the only one who would fork over 200+ for a real LCD?

Would you pay $200 for 14.1" IPS Panel?

Am I the only one who would fork over 200+ for a real LCD?

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