Question about OEM license, and imaging

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Steerpike · #1 Post by **Steerpike** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:31 am

Seems like a dumb question, but I'm used to working with volume licenses and I'm new to a small company environment, so here goes ...

I'm buying just a few Lenovo's at a time at the moment, not enough to warrant volume licensing at this time. So I'm actually using the pre-installed OS - turn on the laptop and go through the one-time config steps, and I'm done. But it's getting tedious when I buy two or three idendtical laptops at a time.

So - can I configure one laptop, and then image it to the other two, ans still be legal? Will Vista 'authenticate' if I do this? I know Vista is super strict when it comes to licensing. Can I just enter the license info from the sticker on the bottom somewhere?

Come to think of it, if I restore a laptop from the recovery disks back to 'factory state', is that 'factory state' uniquely licensed? How the heck does a pre-installed system get a unique license?! I presume the 'recovery' disks are not hand crafted, but they don't seem to contain any license numbers, etc. I've done a few restores to factory default, and never had to type in any licensing info.

Thanks!

#2 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:42 am

Product Recovery disks use Volume Licence Key (VLK) and according to Microsoft terms they don't require a physical key as long as the OEM key on the back of your machine is licensed to the same manufacturer as the provider of recovery disks.

Steerpike wrote:snip....So - can I configure one laptop, and then image it to the other two, ans still be legal? Will Vista 'authenticate' if I do this? I know Vista is super strict when it comes to licensing. Can I just enter the license info from the sticker on the bottom somewhere?.....

Were you going to clone an image from one HDD to another, don't see why Windows Vista has to complain about anything.

The OEM COA on the back of your machine would work only with OEM copy of Windows Vista.

DAH · #3 Post by **DAH** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:09 am

ryengineer wrote:The OEM COA on the back of your machine would work only with OEM copy of Windows Vista.

That has NOT been my experience. Vista unlike XP no longer has an OEM key and a retail key. A retail key will activate an OEM copy of Vista, and I suspect that a OEM key would activate a retail copy of Vista. Activation information is embedded within the BIOS for OEM versions of Vista.

#4 Post by **carbon_unit** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:17 am

I think it would work. A VLK number is already in use and may be the same number on all the laptops anyway. As long as the hardware is identical it should authenticate. The only thing you would have to change is the network identification credentials on the cloned laptops.
With XP there was the sysprep tool which you could use to reseal an image after making your modifications. Then you could clone it and apply it to other computers. Upon first boot it would go through the initial setup which asked for network ID, user ID and Product key information. I don't know if Vista has a tool like this or not.

#5 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:03 am

DAH wrote:That has NOT been my experience. Vista unlike XP no longer has an OEM key and a retail key. A retail key will activate an OEM copy of Vista, and I suspect that a OEM key would activate a retail copy of Vista. Activation information is embedded within the BIOS for OEM versions of Vista.

Why I cannot activate vista online after fresh install?.

DAH · #6 Post by **DAH** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:01 pm

ryengineer wrote:
DAH wrote:That has NOT been my experience. Vista unlike XP no longer has an OEM key and a retail key. A retail key will activate an OEM copy of Vista, and I suspect that a OEM key would activate a retail copy of Vista. Activation information is embedded within the BIOS for OEM versions of Vista.
Why I cannot activate vista online after fresh install?.

Why thank you for sharing that bit of wisdom with me. It's always good to know that I've done something that can't be done. Like activating an OEM copy of Vista online.

Indeed more than once, as I've played with different versions of Vista and XP and Media Center.

#7 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:48 pm

DAH wrote:snip....Like activating an OEM copy of Vista online. Indeed more than once, as I've played with different versions of Vista and XP and Media Center.

Not sure how you did that but Microsoft has disabled the activation for OEM SLP keys from PC manufacturers over the internet for Windows Vista.

Steerpike · #8 Post by **Steerpike** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:32 pm

ryengineer wrote:Product Recovery disks use Volume Licence Key (VLK) and according to Microsoft terms they don't require a physical key as long as the OEM key on the back of your machine is licensed to the same manufacturer as the provider of recovery disks.

Steerpike wrote:snip....So - can I configure one laptop, and then image it to the other two, ans still be legal? Will Vista 'authenticate' if I do this? I know Vista is super strict when it comes to licensing. Can I just enter the license info from the sticker on the bottom somewhere?.....
Were you going to clone an image from one HDD to another, don't see why Windows Vista has to complain about anything.

The OEM COA on the back of your machine would work only with OEM copy of Windows Vista.

Thanks. According to this, I should be good to go.

I read through the entire licensing sticky in the Windows OS' subforum, but I'm still confused.

By way of background, I've discovered the 'custom factory recovery' option in R&R that let's you reinstall from scratch but allows you to eliminate most of the 'extras' that I don't want (eg, Norton since we use McAfee; get rid of annoying Lenovo 'Gadgets' that are ads; etc). Time wise, I'm not yet conviced it's any faster than just doing an 'uninstall' of each unwanted program, but it's my current approach. So - since it takes about 2-4 hours to actually complete the 'custom re-install', plus a good deal of time downloading windows and think* patches, I really want to take an image AFTER going through all that, and make use of that image as a starting point for the rest of the batch of laptops (all legit, factory config'd with Vista, etc).

I'm sure the copied image will work immediately after burning it (obviously I will test that) but I'm scared that, 3 months down the road and when the laptop is in the field and in crucial use, some 'validation' tool with start freaking out and I'll have a crisis on my hands!

So regarding your specific comment: "Product Recovery disks use Volume Licence Key (VLK) and according to Microsoft terms they don't require a physical key as long as the OEM key on the back of your machine is licensed to the same manufacturer as the provider of recovery disks." This sounds great, almost too good to be true. What prevents me (hypothetical question, no plans to do so) from using that image on another machine, one that is not from IBM/Lenovo (I know it may or may not work due to incompatible hardware, let's assume the machines are similar enough to get past that issue)?

If I do image from one OEM Vista Lenovo to another OEM Vista Lenovo, and something DOES go wrong (authentication wise), can I call MS and give them the info from the sticker to validate? Some posts suggest MS won't entertain calls about OEM licenses, since it's Lenovo's responsibility to support the product.

Thanks for any insight.

DAH · #9 Post by **DAH** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:28 pm

You got a T60 that came with a copy of Windows XP? Toss your image on it. You'll find that it does not finish the rescue and recovery as a valid copy of windows Vista. Got a license key for a retail copy of windows Vista in that same flavor? Enter it at the prompt and my experience is it will be taken.

My experience is with Windows XP and OEM license key was of a different length than a retail license. One could not enter a OEM key into a Retail copy, or the other way either.

The license key is embedded in the BIOS for Vista.

#10 Post by **bill bolton** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:17 pm

ryengineer wrote:Were you going to clone an image from one HDD to another, don't see why Windows Vista has to complain about anything.

It depends on the hardware "fingerprint" that is in the source installed Vista system image, and whether Vista thinks it has changed enough on the target system to warrant reactivation.

Vista is more picky about this than XP and I haven't fully as yet got my head around just what will and wont trigger a need to reactivate.

Cheers,

Bill B.

#11 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:16 pm

bill bolton wrote: It depends on the hardware "fingerprint" that is in the source installed Vista system image, and whether Vista thinks it has changed enough on the target system to warrant reactivation.....snip

Security configuration should be part of post imaging process.

For more complex image deployment one may consider using lenovo's ThinkVantage LANDesk Management Suite or IBM's Remote Deployment Manager.

#12 Post by **bill bolton** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:58 pm

ryengineer wrote:Security configuration should be part of post imaging process.

Vista hardware "fingerprints" have nothing to do with security configuration!

Microsoft wrote:How many times can I install Windows on my computer before I have to activate Windows again?

You can reinstall Windows on the same computer as many times as you want because activation pairs the Windows product key with information about your computer's hardware. If you make a significant hardware change, you might have to activate Windows again.

What hardware changes may require re-activation?

The Windows Vista re-activation process may vary based on how you acquired Windows Vista. For example:

If you acquired Windows Vista via retail purchase (boxed product) or pre-installed on a computer from a local computer vendor, Windows Vista will require re-activation if you, for example:

Replace the hard disk drive and memory at the same time.

Replace the motherboard.

If you acquired Windows Vista pre-installed on a computer from a major manufacturer (sometimes referred to as an Original Equipment Manufacturer or OEM), Windows Vista will require re-activation if you replace the motherboard with a motherboard not provided by the OEM.

If you acquired Windows Vista via a volume license upgrade visit the Windows Vista Volume Activation page.
How do I know if changing hardware will make me re-activate; what hardware causes it to change?

Windows Vista uses an algorithm to determine when changes to hardware are significant enough in nature to require re-activation. The algorithm used by Windows Vista is more flexible than that used by Windows XP, but each component change has an impact and adds up until you reach a pre-determined limit.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/produc ... onfaq.mspx

Cheers,

Bill B.

Steerpike · #13 Post by **Steerpike** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:21 am

bill bolton wrote:
Microsoft wrote: What hardware changes may require re-activation?

The Windows Vista re-activation process may vary based on how you acquired Windows Vista. For example:

...

If you acquired Windows Vista pre-installed on a computer from a major manufacturer (sometimes referred to as an Original Equipment Manufacturer or OEM), Windows Vista will require re-activation if you replace the motherboard with a motherboard not provided by the OEM.

Based on this, and, based on my earlier statement - that I'm looking to clone one Lenovo Vista (OEM) T61 to another identical Lenovo Vista (OEM) T61, I will be ok since, even though the motherboard is different, it was provided by the same OEM.

Further, I 'should' be ok even if I try to use this image on another Lenovo Vista (OEM) laptop, even if it's not an identical T61; whether it actually works (independent of Microsoft licensing issues) or not remains to be seen, but that's another issue.

But even if I'm forced to re-activate, will I be 'allowed to' if I call them? Or will they disown responsibility due to the fact this is an OEM copy?

I'm assured enough by this to at least give it a shot. I have about 1 week to 'play' with the second laptop before I have to send it out into the field, so I could always re-install it from recovery disks if the activation fails and things get messy.

Thanks!

#14 Post by **ryengineer** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:33 am

I hear ya Bill. But my understanding or perhaps assumption is if one uses Product Recovery disks on a source thinkpad then clone its image to an identical destination system (thinkpad) then Windows Vista wouldn't complain about activation. I've read comments online that suggests the same. However I would love to see some 1st hand results from someone with two identical machines here.

Steerpike · #15 Post by **Steerpike** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:04 pm

ryengineer wrote:I hear ya Bill. But my understanding or perhaps assumption is if one uses Product Recovery disks on a source thinkpad then clone its image to an identical destination system (thinkpad) then Windows Vista wouldn't complain about activation. I've read comments online that suggests the same. However I would love to see some 1st hand results from someone with two identical machines here.

I'll be trying this later this week.

Whether you use product recovery disks on two separate identical laptops, or use product recovery disks on one laptop and then clone that laptop over to it's twin brother, the result 'should' be the same, unless there is some unique 'signature' phase that goes on during the former process that does not get applied to the latter, correct?

#16 Post by **erik** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:30 pm

when i get back home after the holidays i'll pull the drive from my X61, install it in my T61p's ultrabay, boot to it, and see if it gives me an activation warning. that should give a reliable answer whether activation becomes attached to certain hardware or not.

Steerpike · #17 Post by **Steerpike** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:43 pm

Back in the office now. Found this wonderful site - best documented set of instructions I've ever read - a great standard to follow!
http://www.svrops.com/svrops/articles/sysprepvista.htm (Deploying Vista with Sysprep and ImageX).

I also made this interesting discovery: The "product ID' (as revealed by 'properties' of 'computer') of all 5 Lenovo Vista Business Laptop in my possession today are IDENTICAL; they have the form nnnnn-OEM-nnnnnnn-nnnnn, and are all the same (n=number).

Further, I downloaded and ran the "magic jelly-bean key finder" and ran it on the 5 machines. The KEY is identical too. The key is of the form: aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa (a=alphanumeric).

Thus, they all have the same ID, and they all have the same key, with the ID and Key having fundamentally different structures.

Further still - the product key found by Mr. Jellybean is different from the product key as printed on the COA on the bottom.

I'm 99% done configuring my base machine using sysprep; will post final results shortly, including, whether Windows needs activating or not.

#18 Post by **erik** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:50 pm

fwiw, the XP volume license keys were the exact same on my R50p, T42p, two friends' T60s, and the "downgrade" CD set that i got with my T61p. i'm sure lenovo's VLKs for vista are all identical, too.

#19 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:43 pm

So much for the "license key is embedded in the BIOS for Vista" theory. I didn't think that sounded right.

Steerpike · #20 Post by **Steerpike** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:44 pm

carbon_unit wrote:So much for the "license key is embedded in the BIOS for Vista" theory. I didn't think that sounded right.

From what I've been reading, the reason these OEM installs get away with using the same key for all installs is that they are from the same mfr; this hints at some form of 'BIOS' check at some stage of validation. Otherwise, I could take an image of the Lenovo build and load it on a no-name platform, or a Dell, or whatever.

For this type of security to be worthwhile, whatever it is that's in the BIOS must itself be somewhat 'secure' (hard to copy and/or emulate/simulate). Otherwise, all you would need to do to clone one copy many times would be to have some form of 'BIOS override' app running that faked out the OS into thinking it was talking to the appropriate BIOS.

So maybe when the person said 'license key embedded in BIOS', they really meant, 'license key validation information securely encoded into the BIOS'. Who knows.

I'm burning my image now, after fully configuring my 'reference' Thinkpad T61 with McAfee, Office 07, etc and running 'Sysprep'. We'll soon see what happens ... not enough hours in the day ...

I will also add, for general info, that the 5 Vista Lenovo's I'm looking at are all slightly different (T61, T61P, R60, etc - except the two I'm experimenting with first), and were procured at different times, and from different sources (some from Lenovo Direct, some via CDW). Some don't have fingerprint readers, some do. The only commonality is that they are all Vista Business.

#21 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:03 pm

I think it is more like this. The OEM buys a Volume License Key number good for X amount of installs (say a million). It is customized to look for a certain range of hardware or a specific flag in the BIOS. If it sees it everything is good and no activation is required. If it does not see the expected hardware or BIOS flag it requires authorization which may include using a different Product Key number.
I say this because as an experiment I have used a Dell restore CD to install XP on a non-Dell machine. It installs OK but will not activate. You have to use a different (valid) Product Key number to get it to activate. I have not yet tried this with Thinkpad restore cd's or with any Vista discs.

#22 Post by **bill bolton** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:30 pm

Steerpike wrote:Thus, they all have the same ID, and they all have the same key, with the ID and Key having fundamentally different structures.

That's quite normal for VLK installed MS operating systems.

Cheers,

Bill B.

#23 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:17 am

I ran the following test yesterday:

Unplugged Thinkpad T60 HDD with Windows Vista installed and inserted it into thinkpad X61s, it complained about audio and display drivers, Windows Vista was already shown activated in My Computer, connecting it to internet downloaded appropriate drivers from Microsoft for both devices, it ran all previously installed programs and acted like nothing happened.

HDD of X61s had Windows XP installed, upon plugging it into T60, Windows XP also complained about change of audio and display devices, neither connecting it to internet showed any activity from Microsoft's update tool nor XP complained about re-activation.

Both HDD had lenovo's preloaded image installed.

Crunch · #24 Post by **Crunch** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:31 pm

I was able to enter a NON-OEM key to activate (online, no phone BS) an OEM edition of Vista. Hope this helps.

Steerpike · #25 Post by **Steerpike** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:22 pm

OK, finally completed the steps as documented in the referenced page above (this one: http://www.svrops.com/svrops/articles/sysprepvista.htm ), burning the sysprep'd image to both an identical T61, and to a quite different R60. Both came up fine (R60 had a few driver issues, but nothing serious). Both showed as activated. Ran windows update and ThinkVantage system update, both updated fine. This image had 90% of the Lenovo 'fluff' removed by doing a custom restore, then had McAfee, Office 07, etc installed. I declare this a resounding success!

I also - for total grins - burned the same image to my old Dell d600, which shipped with XP. Vista came up fine, but was NOT activated (and I have no desire or intention to do so - I used an old throw-away HD).

I'm curious to see if a straight 'image' taken from one machine to another would work just as well - but now that I'm using the 'official' MS way, I think I'll stick with it.

The only slight issue I ran into was that when I ran the ImageX command to create the image file, the image creation phase failed with an error 112 'insufficient disk space', even though I was writing to a 500 GB USB drive. Turns out ImageX has no ability to 'split' its output files, and if the output file exceeds 4 GB, it will fail to write if the drive is FAT32. I ran 'convert.exe' on the USB drive, and repeated the process; no more problem! Totally unhelpful error message, though!

I also discovered these two useful commands to observe your current license status:

slmgr -dli
slmgr -dlv
(brief and verbose versions of 'display license info') - issue at the command prompt. These, together with the latest 'magic jelly bean key finder' are useful tools to 'confirm' your license status.

Question about OEM license, and imaging

Question about OEM license, and imaging

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