Excessive eBay shipping and handling?

Message

#1 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:33 pm

This has been set up as a poll in order to get anonymous but hopefully accurate responses. There's no need to post anything unless you feel a comment is required, but please keep it civil since I plan to inform the eBay seller about this thread. As one of my pet peeves on eBay are sellers who have high shipping and handling charges, I couldn't help myself with this latest auction.

Here's the eBay deal:

- Item is one PC133 512MB SODIMM with opening bid of $24.95
- $6.75 for shipping/handling (charge is listed twice in the body of the description; not next to eBay's "Shipping costs" line)
- Seller "hotfire" has been an eBay member since Nov 1998
- His feedback rating was 10070 positive, 397 negative (96%); has almost 12000 total positives
- Does not accept PayPal; only checks, money order, credit card
- I was the only bidder and therefore paid $31.70 by personal check
- Module shipped in a 6" x 9" bubble pack envelope USPS First Class w/delivery confirmation at a cost of $2.05 (WV to CA)
- Module checked out fine and I left this positive feedback:

"Works perfectly, a little high shipping but overall was a good deal; thanks!"

Received this positive feedback from the seller:

"Okay transaction, but poor communication, fails to read ad terms, hard 2 please"

Was I out of line to consider this excessive and/or mention it? I realize $4.70 is nothing to get excited over but after a couple of email exchanges with the seller, I'm wondering if I should be cutting these sellers some more slack over "inflated" s/h costs.

aaa · #2 Post by **aaa** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:07 pm

I ignore shipping. As buyer it really doesn't matter (it matters to ebay's profits but that's something else).

Bottom line is the total cost after everything like shipping is added. It took awhile but ebay finally lets you sort by total cost.

spuddog · #3 Post by **spuddog** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:41 pm

I usually factor in the shipping cost as part of the total cost. If the shipping cost is totally out of line, I don't bid on the item. I don't think you were out of line mentioning it, (you gave him a positive). But I don't think he was out of line gigging you either (he gave you a positive). I usually charge more for shipping that what it actually costs me, (time and gas to go to the post office).

Phazer · #4 Post by **Phazer** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:14 pm

After seeing some of the shipping prices lately, I just steer clear of those. I usually think long and hard if shipping is high. I passed up two mem modules because shipping was $9.99 on first item, and same amount on second item.

In your case, I feel that might have been a little bit of a jab at him that maybe should've been sent in a PM to him, (after all, you did know before hand what the S&H was). And he felt that his only recourse was a jab back, (eye for an eye). I think at this point, nothing more could be accomplished by any furthur contact with the seller. A mutually agreed "feedback withdrawal" I think looks worse than the comment he left.

Shipping costs like that still irritate the crude outta me.

#5 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:37 pm

spuddog wrote:I usually factor in the shipping cost as part of the total cost.

Same here. That's why my snipe was not much more than the opening bid amount. Since nobody else placed a bid, I won by default.

spuddog wrote:I don't think you were out of line mentioning it, (you gave him a positive).

Many professional or business eBay sellers, as opposed to the guy who's merely trying to clean out his closet, loathe any kind of "soft feedback". This is when a positive is left but some disparaging remark is left within. I've commented on high shipping rates on many auctions before and I think this is only the second time that the seller has responded so... earnestly.

spuddog wrote:I usually charge more for shipping that what it actually costs me, (time and gas to go to the post office).

That is basically what the seller quoted me in one of his emails: "10 minute drive one way... 15 minute wait in line" and "Gas alone cost me more than you paid in handling". And here is where I'm not like most eBay sellers. I charge whatever USPS, UPS or FedEx costs me. Buyers know exactly what service is being used so they have the opportunity to verify the price themselves. Any other packaging costs, along with the eBay and PayPal fees are already folded into the cost of the item. I guess what caught my eye on this one was the fact that the S/H charge was not where it normally is (up under the auction end time) but buried in the description. I checked his current auctions and they are all like that. That just seems to me like an attempt at hiding the charge. In fact when I was checking, I spotted four auctions which have conflicting amounts and let him know which ones they were. Here's two:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0199017512 ($16.50 and $6.50)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0198292242 ($16.50 and $14.50)

Did I get a "thank you" or any other kind of recognition for pointing out these typos? Nope.

edit: What a small world we live in.... I didn't expect another email from hotfire but he just dropped a bombshell on me: I have bought seven of these identical modules for $24-$26 within the last few weeks from his brother here in California!

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=54213

Guess I'm going to get backlisted by both sellers

pailhead · #6 Post by **pailhead** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:39 pm

You were obviously willing to pay the shipping charge (you bid on the item), now you want pity? Sorry, not here.

If you don't like the shipping charge you can "protest" by not bidding. I do it all the time and it works great - I never get ripped off.

The guy was a jerk to retaliate like that. He should be greatful someone fell for his $6 shipping scam.

#7 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:11 pm

No, I'm not looking for pity or a refund or anything like that. The reason why I left the feedback that I did is to let other buyers know what they are getting for their money. Isn't that the whole purpose of feedback? I don't believe that the transaction warranted a neutral or negative since the module worked and it was promptly shipped inside an antistatic bag within a padded envelope.

The seller charged $6.75 and I was fine with that since my snipe was for $25.89. Should I have asked him prior to setting my snipe exactly what shipping service was going to be used? Yes, in retrospect, I probably should have. Would that have made me reconsider submitting my bid? Probably not. However, in either case, if he had used USPS Priority ($4.60) I would not have said anything. Conversely, if I got the module in a envelope with a $0.41 stamp on it he WOULD have got a neutral (for bad packaging and inflated shipping).

I guess I probably should have left: Works great, $6.75 s/h was for a $2.05 USPS First Class bubble pack envelope

This takes my opinion of what's inflated shipping out of the statement and still presents the facts.

#8 Post by **KristianJ** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:44 am

I'm all for being honest in feedback if there's something I'm not satisfied with, but I guess that the whole concept of the transaction being a contract and the terms/conditions cited by the seller makes it a case of if you don't agree with the inflated charges and think that you'd pay more with this seller than with another seller with the same item at a lower postage charge, don't bid. I'd be more likely to comment if the item itself didn't meet the description rather than the postage.

As for the seller's feedback, seems to me like he's not happy with the aberration on his feedback and has reciprocated. I can't see how you didn't read the terms - you agreed to pay the shipping costs, even if you weren't quite pleased with the accuracy of said costs.

When I consider my shipping costs, I don't see time waiting in line as being a valid excuse to add a bit more of a charge on, since waiting in queues is a fairly regular aspect of anyone's life. I just look at how much my packaging material is and the exact fee from my location to the other location is, and leave it at that. If I lose a few dollars, I don't care. I don't go crazy seeking to recoup every single imaginable cost that was incurred - why be so pedantic when in likelihood, the difference is only a few dollars?

dsigma6 · #9 Post by **dsigma6** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:48 am

rkawakami wrote:"Okay transaction, but poor communication, fails to read ad terms, hard 2 please"

That's classic right there. Usually "big time" sellers have automated feedback, where if you leave positive, it'll post some obnoxious/overused eBay garbage.

I'm shocked that he took the time to write that to you, especially when the feedback you left for him will surely slip into the bowels of his feedback before yours.

Mailbomb?

I haven't left a negative feedback in a while, but I often use the "soft" feedback you speak of. I'll say "arrived quickly, item is typical chinese aftermarket quality," or "thanks a million, it only took 2 months for item to arrive." I never get retaliatory feedback (anymore...). I'm going to wait until the last day I can post feedback on an item (is it a 90 day window?), and leave some loser eBay seller what they deserve. Sold me a $100 cell phone for my fiancee as new, but it was clearly refurbished, and had scratches in different places.

Pailhead needs ta reckanize!! Ray will beat you down.

Robbyrobot · #10 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:36 am

Shipping charges are part of the price, Ray. I instinctively get my back up too when I see something really exorbitant - and most of the shipping charges I see in the US Ebay auctions are very high for my way of thinking - but that may just be because I have no "feel" for what's reasonable in the States, living as I do in Germany.

I just bid on the total of price + shipping, and adjust my bid downwards when the shipping is high. That way I lose some auctions, but I'd rather do that than steam about how I was taken by the high shipping charges of some seller.

In the past, I've mentioned high shipping several times, but as I mainly buy from private persons - I try to avoid "powersellers" if possible - I've only had one really crass problem - one that got me my only negative feedback. In that case, I was charged several Euro for "insured" shipping and got a bulk rate envelope for EUR 0.70 postage. I mentioned this in a "neutral" feedback and promptly got a negative feedback from the seller.

In the meantime, I also know why some sellers inflate their shipping charges: to reduce their Ebay fees. A lower purchace price but higher shipping means less money for Ebay and more for the seller.

All in all, I certainly sympathize with you and feel the same way, but this is apparently how the world works and somehow you have to adjust to it.

#11 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:52 am

I recently needed a new Motorola BT60 battery for my cell phone, found it brand new on eBay (360003889820) for $1.- + shipping $4.95 + insurance $1.-, total $6.95.
Proportionally the shipping was way out of line, but if I had to go into town and (hopefully) find one, that same battery would have cost me anywhere from $20-40 + $5.- in gas, plus all my time.
So it was still a good deal from my point of view.

tselling · #12 Post by **tselling** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:59 am

IMO, I think you should not complain about shipping charges when the seller states them in the auction. You should not bid on the item if you don't like the shipping charges. Since you left "soft" positive feedback for the seller, I think that you deserved the same... I probably wouldn't been quite as harsh as a seller.... but return feedback is pretty much all the seller has against getting negative feedback.

I do think that sellers should use the ebay shipping so that its automatically calculated in. Reasonable handling charges can be added within ebay shipping calculator as well by the seller. It is especially helpful now that eBay sorts by Lowest cost + shipping.

Also if I am somewhat unhappy about part of an eBay transaction as a buyer or seller and its not too big of a deal, sometimes I just don't leave feedback at all.

Phazer · #13 Post by **Phazer** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:02 pm

I guess Ray, if you found a pristine T23 with a BIN of $1.00 but shipping was $149.00, would you consider it a good deal? Yeah...but like mentioned above, the shipping is obscene.

flashstar · #14 Post by **flashstar** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:03 pm

Check out this item that I recently won.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... Y.m238.lVI

The buy it now was originally $229 + $20 shipping! However I used the best offer system to reduce the price by 22% to the actual retail price. Like others have noted, the trick is to factor shipping into the total cost.

#15 Post by **pkiff** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:58 pm

tselling wrote:return feedback is pretty much all the seller has against getting negative feedback.[....]Also if I am somewhat unhappy about part of an eBay transaction as a buyer or seller and its not too big of a deal, sometimes I just don't leave feedback at all.

I have made it a general policy as a buyer to not ever leave feedback for sellers any longer unless they leave feedback first. I find the entire eBay feedback mechanism has lost much of its effectiveness since it became standard practice for sellers to wait for feedback before leaving feedback for buyers. It has, in effect, become almost impossible for a buyer to leave negative feedback without expecting to receive negative feedback in return (whether it is "hard" or "soft"). Many buyers justifiably hold back negative feedback simply in order to keep their "records" clean.

In my opinion, the system would work better if selllers always left feedback for a buyer first. When I have time, I try to let the seller know that I am waiting for them to provide feedback on me before I provide feedback on them. Other times I simply don't leave feedback until I hear from them.

Regarding Ray's shipping cost questions, I have to say that compared to the inflation on shipping costs that international buyers face, the shipping cost listed there seems normal to me. In order to get packages sent from the U.S. to Canada, I have regularly paid many times over what the actual shipping cost should be for eBay items, but like others I now consider it as a basic part of the total cost of the item. If the shipping cost and method are not explicitly stated in the item description, I always ask for both, and I don't bid until I get a specific answer detailing both. There are lots of eBay sellers who seem to make a living selling things for $0.99 and then making money on the shipping alone. I find that practice annoying, but eBay has allowed it to happen and one might argue, even encouraged it in the past through the limitations of their interface. It will be difficult to get rid of that practice now that it has become so firmly established within the eBay economy.

Phil.

#16 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:14 pm

tselling wrote:IMO, I think you should not complain about shipping charges when the seller states them in the auction.

I guess my main beef here is the nebulous statements contained within his shipping descriptions:

eBay member hotfire wrote:Shipping Options: DHL, USPS, OR OTHER

and elsewhere

SHIPPING: WE PRIMARILY USE FEDEX FOR SHIPPING, BUT WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO USE USPS OR OTHER SHIPPERS

From the $6.75 cost I knew it wasn't coming FedEx 2-day. In the future with cases like this I will be contacting the seller prior to deciding on whether or not to bid. Lesson learned.

tselling wrote:Also if I am somewhat unhappy about part of an eBay transaction as a buyer or seller and its not too big of a deal, sometimes I just don't leave feedback at all.

Yes, I have done that before. I don't like doing it since it defeats the purpose of feedback. As an eBay seller, do you impose a flat rate for something as small as a memory module (estimating or figuring exact shipping cost and adding a few dollars) AND specify exactly which shipper and service you are using?

Phazer wrote:If you found a pristine T23 with a BIN of $1.00 but shipping was $149.00, would you consider it a good deal?

LOL! Yes, but only if the shipping was $80 and eBay allowed something like that

. I will be the first to admit that I have purchased eBay items with what would seem to be a high s/h rate as long as the total cost was a good deal. In other words, I will lower my bid to achieve my price point. In those cases, an explicit service is declared (USPS Priority or UPS Ground) so I can determine what "overhead" I'm paying. Do I note the high s/h rate in my feedback? Sometimes, but it depends upon the entire scope of the transaction.

As a contrast, the other seller of these modules was hotfire's brother, which I did not know at the time. Prior to leaving my feedback with hotfire, I noticed that both sellers had the same last name and thought that was very odd (same family name, selling identical modules at opposite ends of the country???). The first Swissbit module I received from "jooodaddy" (the brother) was in an identical manner; module inside a bubble pack envelope via USPS First Class. His shipping charge was $5. My feedback was simply "As advertised, promptly shipped, works fine". I bought six more in two groups and asked that something more sturdy than a bubble pack envelope be used. He sent all six in a small box via FedEx for $10. Needless to say he got a very positive six-part reply from me.

edit:

pkiff wrote:I have made it a general policy as a buyer to not ever leave feedback for sellers any longer unless they leave feedback first.

Getting a little OT but... To me it works like this: I don't care (or check) if the seller leaves feedback before I do. Once I verify that the item is as described and acceptable to me, that's when I post. If there's any problem with the transaction, the seller is ALWAYS contacted first and given a chance to resolve the issue. Once that has taken place, then I leave feedback.

aaa · #17 Post by **aaa** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:26 pm

pkiff wrote:
tselling wrote:return feedback is pretty much all the seller has against getting negative feedback.[....]Also if I am somewhat unhappy about part of an eBay transaction as a buyer or seller and its not too big of a deal, sometimes I just don't leave feedback at all.
I have made it a general policy as a buyer to not ever leave feedback for sellers any longer unless they leave feedback first. I find the entire eBay feedback mechanism has lost much of its effectiveness since it became standard practice for sellers to wait for feedback before leaving feedback for buyers. It has, in effect, become almost impossible for a buyer to leave negative feedback without expecting to receive negative feedback in return (whether it is "hard" or "soft"). Many buyers justifiably hold back negative feedback simply in order to keep their "records" clean.

That is why you create two ebay accounts. One for selling that you keep squeaky clean, and one for buying so you aren't afraid to leave negatives. An account that you don't sell anything on is pretty much disposable.

@rkawakami
Seems it like the unspecified shipping service was more of a problem than the actual amount of shipping. The way the guy listed it also kinda bugs me because it doesn't show up when you're sorting a bunch of listings.

ArtShapiro · #18 Post by **ArtShapiro** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:00 pm

I've purchased items for as little as a penny, with (say) $5 shipping. Like most of the others, I just figure the total price and consider it to be "funny money" in the way it happens to be divied up between item and "shipping". Perhaps eBay should crack down on the practice, but it's really that company's problem.

Knowing that's exactly what's going on, it makes it real tough to honestly answer the detailed transaction grid that goes along with the textual feedback. Yeah, the $5 shipping is unreasonable, but on the other hand the one cent purchase price is a joke in the other direction. The $5.01 total for something like, say, a cellular phone data cable is still a lot better than it would be at the T-Mobile retailer.

Art

ajkula66 · #19 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:02 pm

Honestly, had you been buying it from me, on fleabay, S&H would've been $10. And you would've gotten in priority mail with DC. So I don't see the charge itself being excessive.

Feedback is useless, and worthless. Take it from someone who has more than two accounts. And trust you me, Ray, had you left that type of "soft" feedback for me, I wouldn't have been nearly as kind...

I've had horrible issues with stuff from people with "great" feedback, and the other way around-great items from people with next to no rating.

I always compliment great service. Rarely do I comment on bad one these days. Simply not worth it. Come to think of it, I don't think eBay in general is really worth anything anymore-apart from remedial stuff such as HD covers etc...

Just my $0.02, obviously...