T4x Mainboard "Flexing" - CONCRETE Remedies Sought

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Robbyrobot · #1 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:23 am

The problems resulting from "flexing" of T4x mainboards are well known and generally involve display failures due to loss of contact of the GPU - a Ball Grid Array (BGA) chip - to the mainboard. Various measures have been proposed to reduce or eliminate such problems, and include adding materials to apply pressure on the GPU and heating the mainboard and specifically the GPU to "reflow" the solder balls of the BGA. The methods used for this are sometimes logical (hot air guns, hot plates) and sometimes arcane (tea candles on the mainboard): none are praticularly professional and none offer any way of really checking the final result.

The only real way of repairing such defects appears to be reflowing or reballing of the GPU by a professional service equipped to do such work, i.e. with X-ray equipment for inspection of the work.

Although I have read a few suggestions as to companies capable of such work, I have never once seen a posting here or elsewhere reporting a specific GPU problem fixed by a specific treatment at a specific company for a specific price. Such reports, where they exist, tend to be general and nebulous.

I am only aware of few companies capable and willing to do such work at a reasonable (< $100) price. One is First Phase Technology in Arizona.

What I would like to know is this:

1. Who has actually had reflowing/reballing done by this company, what was the price and and were the results satisfactory?

2. Who has had such work done by another - specific - company? Which company (URL), what price and what work? Was the work satisfactory and did it solve the problem? Details, please.

What I don't need or want are generalizations that such work can be done with a hot air pistol, or that somebody's friend had work done by some company in California or such. Everytime this subject comes up in the various forums, the discussion becomes general and finally peters out, showing that there is very little specific, concrete information available - or that the people affected are happy with the work they had done and simply don't write about it.

I think that needs to change, since a lot of us are affected by this problem and could use some concrete information to eliminate it.

baisley · #2 Post by **baisley** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:13 pm

The flexing and its impact to the T4* series has been quantified. It mostly affects the T40 T41 T42.. with little in the T43 that I have seen. BUT, since the mounting and base assembliy for all of these units is esentially the same, I would expect the same flex to occur in all of them.

The company you mentioned in Arizona charges $50 per unit to reflow. You need to strip the laptop to a bare board. I personally dont think there is a difference between reballing and reflowing in regards to a better lifespan. Its the flex of the laptop by carrying it in one hand that kills these. I have personally had over 4 of these fail on my prior corporate laptop with my prior employer.

You may do some research on the Apple products as they have been experiencing the same failures on the BGA assemblies. The folks at the Arizona company that you mentioned have stated something like a 92% sucsess rate on this repair.

I am also looking for a good company as well as I have 6 units with this problem that I would like to repair. From the stories I have read on the repair, it seems to solve the problem. To prevent reoccurance, handle laptop with two hands

jamiphar · #3 Post by **jamiphar** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:26 pm

I have repaired a few video chips like this, using a heat gun and well-placed foil.

I haven't done too many for customers, so I don't have the prices worked out yet. With a small sample like this, it's hard to tell how much of a success rate I'll have. But I'd be glad to try it for anyone if we agree on the price.

I've also thought of applying an epoxy like JB Weld around the edge of the chip (after reflowing) to keep it from coming loose again.

#4 Post by **underclocker** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:42 pm

baisley wrote:The flexing and its impact to the T4* series has been quantified. It mostly affects the T40 T41 T42.. with little in the T43 that I have seen. BUT, since the mounting and base assembliy for all of these units is essentially the same, I would expect the same flex to occur in all of them.

To prevent reoccurrence, handle laptop with two hands

I do not believe this is entirely accurate. Without regurgitating everything that has been discussed in prior threads, IBM made incremental improvements to the T4x motherboard over time to address this issue. Additionally, similarly equipped T43's (and maybe T42's) weigh more than earlier machines, I believe the case was strengthened, too.

I am aware of several ways to deal with the issue;

-handle a T4x with care
-have it fixed for about $100 including shipping both ways plus one hour of your time
-keep a T4x under warranty (although this can only continue for 5 years from the original sales date of a unit)
-replace the motherboard when it goes bad (about 1 hour of labor and approx. $150 at current eBay prices); this may seem crazy, but it's less than some warranty options
-buy a T43 with Intel integrated video (vs. ATI), there were several models available
-try replacing a defective T4x motherboard with an Intel integrated video equipped R51 motherboard, there were several models available. I have not tried it and I am not sure this would work, but the R51 and T4x's are very similar and may use interchangeable motherboards.

frgtn · #5 Post by **frgtn** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:05 pm

As i have taken apart my T42 and i found that only the back and left sides of the base are reinforced with titanium parts (couldn't think of a better word to describe them). Front and right sides are not, so my guess is that T42 still has a killer corner, that being the front right.

#6 Post by **carbon_unit** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:33 am

I have noticed (as I kept an eye on this situation) that this problem only seems to occur on units with discrete graphics chipsets. The units with integrated graphics do not seem to have this problem because they do not have the large ATI chip that comes loose. Instead they have a group of smaller chips in the same area.

If I am wrong please correct me but this is what I have observed so far.

My advice is: If you don't want to worry about the graphics chip coming loose buy a lower end T4x with integrated graphics.

#7 Post by **richk** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:17 pm

The basic T40 (32MB ATi Radeon 7500) has a large graphics chip with 2 memory chips preassembled by ATi and mounted onto the motherboard. It comes loose. The ones with several small chips have Intel video. That configuration comes on T43 machines with model numbers that start with a 1 (ie: 187X-XXX) and on R5x machines. The good news is that the basic ATi chip is easier to reattach - I have had better success.

#8 Post by **carbon_unit** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:10 pm

Instead of integrated graphics I should have said Intel graphics. Maybe the lower end R5x does have one advantage over the T4x series.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

#9 Post by **carbon_unit** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:32 pm

I split the reflowing conversation off to it's own thread.
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=55098

Sorry about the thread hijack.

Robbyrobot · #10 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:10 am

Sorry about the thread hijack.

No arguments from me, as the main thing was to get some input on this prevalent but underreported problem.

The downside up to now is that the discussion is staying as hypothetical as all the others I've seen on the subject. Lots of "you might", "you could" and no "I did" with specifics. And in particular, nothing on professional services doing this kind of work with X-ray checking before and after treatment - something I personally consider absolutely necessary for a real repair.

Has nobody actually dealt with this First Phase Technology outfit - or any other similar company? Can noboby report actual experience? I'm beginning to think I'm simply going to have to contact First Phase myself and try them out, even though my location (Germany) makes that more difficult and costly than it would be for someone living in the States.

ffalcon2 · #11 Post by **ffalcon2** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:15 am

If you're looking for a concrete solution to your flexing problem, I suggest you construct a wooden box large enough to lay your laptop flat in it. Then mix some concrete and pour it over you laptop in the box.

That should prevent any flexing.

Robm · #12 Post by **Robm** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:43 pm

After you try the concrete thing...let me know how things work

Robbyrobot · #13 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:34 am

If you're looking for a concrete solution to your flexing problem...

After you try the concrete thing...let me know how things work

Very humorous, I'm sure

The only ones who aren't laughing are the people with defective T4x boards who are still looking for a solution that won't cost them an arm and a leg.

A helpful PCB designer in Germany who happens to have a vapor oven designed to make pilot PCBs is offering to help by relowing boards - and was overwhelmed when 30 people wanted to send him boards to repair within a day of his announcement that he would do such work.

I'm sure many people reading here would appreciate such help too - "concrete" help, so to speak.

T4x Mainboard "Flexing" - CONCRETE Remedies Sought

T4x Mainboard "Flexing" - CONCRETE Remedies Sought

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