T61 Reverse Cloning HD Update - Failure then Success (WinXP)

[eecon]

Last night, after one failure, I successfully cloned my original WinXP T61's Seagate 7200.1 100GB to a Hitachi 7k200 200GB using Acronis True Image 11 Home (Build 8053) in Cloning Manual Mode (to maintain the original size of my Lenovo 5.58GB Service Partition).

There have been a number of threads here recently about cloning Hard Drives, including a How-To Sticky. After reading these threads and the How-To, I walked away with the impression that you put the new empty target HD in an external SATA 2.5" USB enclosure or the ultrabay adapter and use an Acronis True Image 11 Home CD boot disk (OEM versions of it are called Apricorn) and clone from the internal existing source HD to the new external target HD.

That was not the case for me. I had to Reverse Clone from external-to-internal. Using the Acronis Boot Disk it took about 15 minutes (my old HD had about 25GB of files on it).

This afternoon, after further searching older threads, I found that I went through the same the experience that Paul Pavlik discussed in his 1-year old thread about Reverse Cloning with Moderator GomJabbar (and last updated in May 2007):

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... t=apricorn

Now I wish I had found that thread before spending time trying to clone from internal-to-external, with the resultant failure to boot into WinXP after swapping the HDs (even though I could bring up RR from the cloned Service Partition with the F11 key and the BIOS and RR were properly seeing the new 7k200).

However, reversing the procedure on a whim to clone from external-to-internal worked perfectly (just like Paul discusses in his thread with Moderator GomJabbar). After finding Paul's thread today, I feel relieved that I was not alone regarding this issue. I also learned today that I probably could have also fixed the first WinXP clone attempt by running the MBR repair software as discussed in some other older threads, but that's more work than simply Reverse Cloning from the get-go, IMHO.

The Sticky "Hard Drive Cloning How-To" thread does not discuss or alert members about Reverse Cloning or the MBR repair option for T6Xs, so I thought I'd refresh things about this SATA T6X WinXP Reverse Cloning issue tonight.

I also thought it maybe had something to do with not switching to Compatibility Mode in BIOS, but it did not. My WinXP T61 is a September 2007 build and already came with the latest SATA drivers released by Lenovo in August 2007.

My experience may lend further support to Moderator GomJabbers' position about the greater potential for hard disk geometry errors when cloning from internal-to-external. At the very least, Reverse Cloning with WinXP may be the first choice approach with the MBR repair as a Plan B if neither a Reverse Clone or an internal-to external clone fail to boot into WinXP.

Maybe the How-To section could be updated if there is any merit to what I and Paul experienced. Are there any others out there with similar "Reverse Cloning" stories or experiences?

Thank you

[Brad]

I am glad you were able to clone successfully.

Using ATI 11 Home I haven't had a problem going from internal to external. After completing the process I swapped the cloned drive into my T60p to make sure it boots. After confirming operation I move the original drive back in so I don't have to re-register a few software programs that are installed which would be a pain. I would of course have to if I had a failure. I have not had a problem yet with this method.

What I have had trouble with is booting a restored image created with ATI. I get the blinking cursor in the top left corner. I tried the suggested repair with FIXMBR and FIXBOOT with no success. I have also tried the suggested Lenovo fix. This has been a problem for years. Every once in a while after reading of someones success I try again but no joy. Since larger hard drives have going down in price I just have more than one as a backup in more than one location which I feel is a good backup strategy.

Brad

[pae77]

Internal to external (ultrabay) always has and continues to work just fine for me.

[MartinC]

[quote="pae77"]Internal to external (ultrabay) always has and continues to work just fine for me.[/quote
Hi Pae77,
would be very pleased, if you can describe this process in details.

With regards: MartinC

[nik]

Internal to external cloning using ATI 10 and a NexStar2 IDE enclosure failed for me on a T42 just last week, resulting in the dreaded blinking cursor in the upper left corner when trying to boot from the cloned drive. So I tried it again after switching the drives and doing an external to internal clone. It worked!

[eecon]

Internal to external cloning using ATI 10 failed for me on a T42 just last week, resulting in the dreaded blinking cursor in the upper left corner when trying to boot from the cloned drive. So I tried it again after switching the drives and did an external to internal clone. It worked!

Yup, that always happens to me on my T61 so now I always clone from external to internal. It might have something to do with the type of SATA controller chip my "external" HD enclosure uses (or something like that).

However, many people report no problems going from internal to external, so maybe it would be nice of them to report the make and model of the external enclosure they used?

Mine is an I-Rock 9200S (2.5" SATA external HD enclosure) and it only seems to clone external to internal without problem.

[Paul Pavlik]

eecon: FWIW, I still use the Reverse Cloning method as my backup scheme. During my experiments, I tried the MBR Repair on a non-bootable clone and it didn't work. I would also like to be able to do a "Standard Clone" but (at least for me) the clone can't be relied on to boot.

[rbena]

Paul, are you cloning via an external enclosure or using the ultrabay? Many thanks.

[pae77]

I haven't ever had one of my clones of my internal drive to a target drive in the ultrabay (using Acronis TIH) fail to boot and work properly when installed in the primary drive slot.

(I have had occasions where, for one reason or another, Acronis wouldn't allow the clone to be made in the first place. That usually was due to the data not being able to fit on the smaller target drive.)

[Paul Pavlik]

rbena: I am cloning, Using the Apricorn kit, from the USB enclosure provided by Apricorn to the main internal HD. My Ultrabay just holds the CD/DVD drive.

[rbena]

Thanks Paul. I wonder if any people are having problems cloning internal-to-external, using the ultrabay as the external.
I've cloned internal-to-external using the ultrabay of my T42 running ATI 9 and also ATI 10 without any problems.

I know there have been compatibility issues with certain USB external enclosure chipsets when running DVD-RW drives. Others have reported success in cloning external-to-internal using an external USB enclosure, and attributed the success of this method as due to 'drive geometry'?

I don't use an external USB hard drive enclosure, as I find the ultrabay is more convenient for changing out hard drives quickly.

[eecon]

eecon: FWIW, I still use the Reverse Cloning method as my backup scheme. During my experiments, I tried the MBR Repair on a non-bootable clone and it didn't work. I would also like to be able to do a "Standard Clone" but (at least for me) the clone can't be relied on to boot.

Although the reverse cloning backup scheme (external to internal) using an external 2.5" USB enclosure is more work, it does assure my clone works because the clone is already in the main bay ready for a week or two of service until my next swap-out and backup cloning operation.

FWIW, it also splits the run time between my two new 250GB Hitachi 7k200's

[Paul Pavlik]

eecon: I thought about leaving the clone in the ThiinkPad and "alternating" the drives as you describe. However, I don't do that because I'm worried that an error on data transfer would not be known until both drives were affected. I always use the same drive as the Source.

[eecon]

eecon: I thought about leaving the clone in the ThiinkPad and "alternating" the drives as you describe. However, I don't do that because I'm worried that an error on data transfer would not be known until both drives were affected. I always use the same drive as the Source.

Good point, but I always do a complete HD image backup to one of several large external full size USB HDs before each clone operation. I save about 6 to 8 months worth of those full images just in case.

[rbena]

I always do a complete HD image backup to one of several large external full size USB HDs before each clone operation. I save about 6 to 8 months worth of those full images just in case.

What program do you use for making the complete hard drive backup image.
Is this image bootable, and have you had good success in restoring these images. Many thanks.

[eecon]

I always do a complete HD image backup to one of several large external full size USB HDs before each clone operation. I save about 6 to 8 months worth of those full images just in case.

What program do you use for making the complete hard drive backup image.
Is this image bootable, and have you had good success in restoring these images. Many thanks.

I use Arconis True Image 11 Home (Build 8053) for both the images and the cloning operations.

The external HDs that I image to are not bootable (by my choice because I use them as logical drives with no primary partition). However, Acronis will image to any external USB drive that you have made bootable just as well. In my case, I would simply boot from the Acronis CD boot disk. I have the retail disk but you can make your own from the free downloadable Eval Version. I then can restore the image (or select files) from my external USB HD's. Just make sure your external USB HD is powered and connected when booting from the Acronis disk, otherwise the Acronis Recovery Console won't see it. I have tested booting up with the Acronis CD and the Acronis Recovery Console sees my external USB drives and all the image backups, but I have have stopped just short of an actual "full" recovery or restoration from a full image (although I have successfully restored many individual files from these images while testing things out on a regular basis).

I've seen many postings from others here on the Forum who have tried full recoveries from full backup images and maybe they can chime in here about the reliability of such recoveries (rather than direct cloning)?

[Paul Pavlik]

eecon: I am also curious about whether a restored image would be bootable, given the dificulities of producing a bootable clone. I specifically asked a Apricorn Tech about this and he did not know whether a restored image would be be bootable.

It would probably be bootable when restoring the image to the drive that it was made from. The question is whether the image could be restored to a replacement drive (mounted in the ThinkPad) and then be bootable.

I will try some experiments and see.

[nik]

Intuitively it seems to me that a restored image should be no more nor less bootable than a cloned drive.

The question of whether to clone or image is periodically discussed on the Acronis forums. The prevailing opinion seems to be that for backup purposes at least, it's better to image. For example:

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=176583

[rbena]

For backup purposes, I actually prefer direct copying of files (in native format) using an incremental backup program. This allows accessing backup files directly, including from any computer should my main machine go down. I also regularly archive a full set of backup data and store off site.

However, I image my C-partition (Win2000) for emergency restoring in the event of system problems. I currently use Ghost, which has been 100 percent reliable in restoring images placed on a bootable optical disk.

Acronis has been described by other users to be more attractive than Ghost for working with XP and especially Vista. I'd really appreciate any experience re the reliability of Acronis when creating and restoring bootable images.

[Paul Pavlik]

I was getting ready to do some testing with a Drive Image and in the process, I made a clone FROM the internal HD TO the external USB HD.

In the past this clone would NOT be bootable.

However, this clone WAS bootable. I repeated the proceedure twice just to confirm this.

One thing to note is that the SOURCE HD (in the ThinkPad T60) is not the HD that came with the computer. The DESTINATION HD is the original HD that came with the computer.

I'm still not confident that the clone made this way will always be bootable.

I will continue testing.

[eecon]

I was getting ready to do some testing with a Drive Image and in the process, I made a clone FROM the internal HD TO the external USB HD.

In the past this clone would NOT be bootable.

However, this clone WAS bootable. I repeated the proceedure twice just to confirm this.

One thing to note is that the SOURCE HD (in the ThinkPad T60) is not the HD that came with the computer. The DESTINATION HD is the original HD that came with the computer.

I'm still not confident that the clone made this way will always be bootable.

I will continue testing.

Drive Image .... Is that the old Power Quest product that later was aquired by Symantec and became the basis for later versions of Norton Ghost? Is it a different product from what you used when you posted this earlier thread about cloning?

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... t=apricorn

Paul, thanks for all your hard work on this issue ... it has been very helpful for me and saved me a lot of potential frustation regarding cloning HDs

[Paul Pavlik]

eecon:

I was going to test the "Drive Image" utility on the Apricorn Cloning CD.

I saved a Image of the internal (non-original) HD to a 3rd (externally mounted) spare HD.

Then, I removed the spare HD from the USB enclosure and mounted the Original HD supplied with the PC in the external (USB) enclosure.

I then cloned from the internal (Non-Original) HD to to the externally mounted HD (The Original HD supplied with the PC) as described above, expecting to produce a non-bootable clone.

I mounted this (what I thought was a non-bootabe) clone in the PC.

I was going to restore the Image to this clone from the spare HD.

However the clone WAS bootable.

I never did try to restore the Image since the clone WAS bootable.
I may test the "Image Restore" in the future.

FWIW: The "Image" method takes twice as long as the "Clone" method.

[eecon]

eecon:

I was going to test the "Drive Image" utility on the Apricorn Cloning CD.

<snipped>

I never did try to restore the Image since the clone WAS bootable.
I may test the "Image Restore" in the future.

FWIW: The "Image" method takes twice as long as the "Clone" method.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the best test would be to wait until one purchases a new non-Lenovo Branded HD (like an OEM Hitachi 72k200 or a Seagate 7200.2, etc) and try transferring a full image (including my intact original Lenovo Service Partition) to it while it is mounted inside the main bay of the T61 .... using an Acronis boot disk to access the saved image from an external USB HD where I usually save my backup images.

I'm getting close to purchasing another new HD and I'll give that a try first before using the cloning feature and report back how it goes in a few weeks.

[rbena]

FWIW: The "Image" method takes twice as long as the "Clone" method.

Probably due to the image being a sector-by-sector mapping of the hard drive (or partition) contents, versus a clone being a copying of the contents on a file-level.

Interesting you're having success creating bootable images with the Apricorn utility. Some of their software is associated with Acronis, but am not sure which programs.

Again, Ghost has been very reliable creating a bootable image, when imaging the hard drive C-partition on a DOS level. As long as you figure out its "requirements" for your particular OS and setup, it can be a reliable tool.

However, it has limitations that require certain procedures when working with the NTFS file system, and also with SATA 2 hard drives. That's why Acronis, which works well with cloning the hidden partition in both XP and Vista, seems like an attractive tool for creating bootable images, providing it is reliable.

[Paul Pavlik]

eecon:

I agree that it may be that the original HD (as supplied with the ThinkPad) can be mounted in the USB enclosure and be the Destination Drive with the result being a bootable clone.

I think that I tried that a year ago and that the results were not predictable. More testing needed.

On another somewhat related subject, I have a "Backup" 2623-DAU ThinkPad that I just bought.

Several days ago, I took the backup clone (the original 2623-D9U HD, cloned as a destination drive when it was mounted IN the 2623-D9U), and mounted it in the 2623-DAU.

It booted up normally!! Of course the Hardware in the 2623-DAU is Identical except for the Processor Speed.

That drive (originally supplied with the 2623-D9U) had a Lenovo supplied Firmware update even prior to my testing a year ago.

Both the "Normal" and "Backup Clone" drives for my 2623-D9U have had the IBM Service Partition removed and the resulting 60gb drive only has 8gb used. This makes for a "Fast Clone" as only the actual data is Cloned to the Destination Drive during the Cloning process. The cloning takes about 8 min.

I have a 3rd 60gb hd WITH the Service Partition intact in case I ever have to restore to Factory State.

rbena: Actually, I didn't complete my testing using the "Image". I only CREATED the image file. I never RESTORED it to the HD. May try that in the future. My reference to the "Time" was based to the time that it took to Create the image.

[Aroc]

I don't have any of these complications with Ghost (corporate edition 11.0.0 at work). I have an older corp version for home use (I'm looking to re-up the maintenace for my home version to get current - the latest builds are needed for Windows Vista support - and I'm still stuck on 8.2). I know Ghost isn't as popular around here.

[rbena]

I don't have any of these complications with Ghost (corporate edition 11.0.0 at work).

Do you find this version of Ghost reliable for creating and restoring bootable images of the XP and Vista OS-partitions.

Under what product name is this Ghost version packaged & sold retail?
Many thanks.

[rbena]

Just to update, I've found Ghost version 11 - it's part of Ghost Enterprise Solution Suite 2.0.

[gabriel.doroftei]

I just tried a direct clone from toshiba 80 to hitachi 200 with acronis 11, with no luck. Reverse closing worked like a charm (did it only once).

My enclosure is Rosewill RX81U-AT-25A

[eecon]

I just tried a direct clone from toshiba 80 to hitachi 200 with acronis 11, with no luck. Reverse closing worked like a charm (did it only once).

My enclosure is Rosewill RX81U-AT-25A

Welcome to the Forum .... I am beginning to believe that the success or failure of forward direct cloning with Acronis depends on the make and model of the actual external enclosure used. Reverse cloning seems to always work, but forward cloning is being reported as hit or miss.

Thanks for providing your external enclosure information.