A31 Reboot Problem

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#1 Post by **Harryc** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:27 pm

I have an A31 that will boot up and run fine if cold. Once it warms up, I cannot power it up once shut down and it won't reboot. It goes through the reboot sequence normally but boots up to a blank screen, just the power on light is on. What I've done so far;

Swapped RAM , tried one slot at a time as well as swapped modules,
Pulled all drives..in fact it doesn't presently have a hard drive, I am booting off of a USB stick.
Pulled out the modem CDC and Wifi cards
Reseated the CPU , cleaned the fan, and used arctic silver to reapply.
Current idle temp is 47*C, and it never goes above 57*c, so it's not a CPU temp problem.
Tried a different AC adapter

Ideas? by the way if I connect an external LCD it still boots to a blank screen. I was thinking about disconnecting the internal LCD and running to an external. The LCD does have a red tint on boot. Has anyone done this as a test?

SaberX · #2 Post by **SaberX** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:28 pm

I dont think this is your probblem but just putting it out there.
On my A31P , when i first got it i opened up the lcd lid and install a set of wi-fi antenna's.When i did this i may have loosened up the lcd cable where it connects to the inverter board.(dident know it then) i put it all back together and worked fine for weeks.
Then one day i went to move the laptop upstairs.I turned it off , closed the lid and went upstairs.
When i tryed to turn it back on the hard drive light would come on but nothing on the screen.The cable to the inverter was off.

But on another note , is the temp of the cpu alittle high?
I have my A31P with new arctic silver and my idle temp is 30~32*c. And never goes pass 45*c no matter what i do.

#3 Post by **Harryc** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:38 pm

Saberx, thanks for the reply. I'll check it out. Since it does not boot to an external LCD, I am having a doubt about this idea, but who knows. About the idle temp. Right now it is sitting at 37*C idle at 1200MHz. The 47*c is right after it boots up at 1600Mhz.

SaberX · #4 Post by **SaberX** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:47 pm

I'm going to do a serch and see if there are any other posts about cpu temps on the A31(P).
I have my A31P on now for about 2 hr's , just useing the internet,e-bay,this forum,ect.
I have mobile meter running all the time up in the top corner.It's at 1.2Ghz and at 31*c now.The fan is on, well i think so.it's very low,can hardly hear it running.It shuts off most of the time.
The room temp is a little chilly,that might make a small diffrence.

sjthinkpader · #5 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:58 pm

I have a 2652-JEU that freezes after booting into Windows. I suspect this is still related to the GPU BGA solder joint failure. The A31 Radeon 7500 uses a different package than T4x and are much more reliable. But some may still have the same issues.

Silicon has a very low temperature expansion coefficient (TEC) while PCBs have a much higher TEC. So they create huge stresses during the heating and cooling cycles. Traditional way to mitigate this effect is to layer the package structure from small TEC to large TEC gradually thru different materials with successively larger TEC. Some structure even use a flexible layer of silicon rubber. Thinkpads that are on all the time have much less internal stress due to stable temperature.

intel and larger IDM (integrated device manufacturers) are much more thorough in making sure package designs are reliable, ATi is a fabless house with little or no internal wafer and package manufacturing capabilities. But they were very aggressive in using multi-chip modules. It is likely that they have slighted something in the package design. May be that's why they sold out to AMD and passed on the liability of these failures to AMD.

#6 Post by **Harryc** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:43 pm

sjthinkpader, thanks for the insight into ATI package design. I just found an old dock and hooked the A31 up to it and it still has the same problem on an external analog LCD connection. I'm calling this a motherboard problem. It will run all day once it boots, at least into Linux.

sjthinkpader · #7 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:00 pm

It is possible that some functions are only checked at boot time. Once booted, the BIOS/OS doesn't check again. There is an on chip function called JTEG boundary scan which checks all the connections. This may be checked only at boot time.

#8 Post by **gator** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:38 pm

sjthinkpader wrote:It is possible that some functions are only checked at boot time. Once booted, the BIOS/OS doesn't check again. There is an on chip function called JTEG boundary scan which checks all the connections. This may be checked only at boot time.

If you are talking about JTAG, you are kinda off the mark ...

sjthinkpader · #9 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:25 am

Pardon me, you are right, JTAG.

sjthinkpader · #10 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:54 pm

Regarding the GPU solder reflow issue, I've been reading other users' experiences with solder reflow on this forum. Frankly the only reflow I've done up to now is taking chip off and reuse on other boards. This had been limited on SOP/SSOP packages with small pin counts.

For that I simply put the board in the oven and use 450 deg F range for a few minutes. While I could get my SOP/SSOPs off, the BGAs were always in a mess.

Since IC package TEC delta depends on the length of the deflection, the corner balls bore the largest stress due to longest distance. Many early BGA package designs have dummy corner balls to take the stress and lengthen the time to electric failure by protecting the balls inside. So it may be safe to assume the failed balls on ATi GPUs are mostly in the corners.

Arm with this, I would think that by placing 4 supports in the middle of each side, then reheating the corners with hot air gun will be most productive. The supports would be beads of RTV. It conforms to the shape of the package, can withstand 450 deg F without any problems and is readily available. The aluminum foil shield method described in other post seem like good way to protect the components around the GPU. Since the corners is of most interest, a small right angle triangular window should be made in the aluminum shield.

I have to invest in a hot air gun and an IR thermometer and give it a try as I have a few of those failed T40 MBs.

#11 Post by **Harryc** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:16 pm

I had some more time to play with this machine today. If I tilt the LCD at a 45 degree angle, the A31 will load XP, run and reboot properly. So, the next step is to take the LCD off of the machine and check the cables, inverter connections etc. Nasty problem ... more to come.

sjthinkpader · #12 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:03 pm

Is the BIOS Primary display setting to AGP or PCI? Is the Boot display set to LCD, CRT or Both?

PM me if you need a LCD cable. I have a large stash of the SXGA+ and UXGA cables for A3x.

#13 Post by **Harryc** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:22 pm

Thanks for the offer, this is a LCD cable assembly 14.1 XGA - 27L0680. I'll check on the BIOS settings after XP finishes loading.

#14 Post by **Harryc** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:14 am

Update to this problem. I've found that if I plug any external device (ethernet cable, USB thumb drive, etc.) into the A31 while it is powered on, the machine will instantly power down. I also updated the Embedded Controller program and the BIOS to the latest versions...no difference. New CMOS battery, no difference. The finding with the LCD lid at 45 degrees having an effect must have been a fluke, because it is random. I took the LCD completely apart and inspected the video cable and Inverter/plug. No visible signs of shorts and no loose connections. So, the machine is still not powering up most of the time, won't reboot most of the time, and shuts down immediately if you plug in an external device. It also spontaneously shuts down on its own in XP even with no external devices being plugged in....power regulation problem on the systemboard? CPU?

Is the BIOS Primary display setting to AGP or PCI? Is the Boot display set to LCD, CRT or Both?

Set to AGP, LCD. No effect on problem trying different settings.

AlexDBall · #15 Post by **AlexDBall** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:39 pm

Hello to all from a new member of the forum!

So, is this problem MoBo related? I have an A31 265-KWG which is driving me crazy. It will boot the 1st time and after 5 minutes in Windows it will just freeze. On the 2nd attempt i may run for about 15-20 minutes and freeze again.. It repeats this issue until the 4th or 5th attempt (sometimes maybe more) and after that it will be ok until i shut it down.

I've changed memory modules, tested them 1 by 1 in different slots, changed CPU, hard drive DVD-ROM and floppy drive but the same thing happens.

One thing that i am suspecting but i don't really believe to be the culprit is the Keyboard.

when i leave the computer alone and the screensaver pops up (after 10 minutes) and press any key on the keyboard the computer responds and i can use it *until* i press a key and simultaniously move the trackpoint. Then it freezes again.

Anyway thanks for reading and "hopfully" it's a mobo problem so i can stop messing around with it as it to tiring and time consuming for me :p

#16 Post by **Harryc** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:44 pm

Run PC-Doctor diagnostics on the machine...all tests.

AlexDBall · #17 Post by **AlexDBall** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:02 pm

I've run PC-Doctor a few days ago but all tests passed.

i'll retry it now while its warmed up.. (it been running for 4 hours!)

Thanks,

AlexDBall · #18 Post by **AlexDBall** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:29 am

Sorry for the late response!

Nop, all tests pass with PC-Doctor.
I've read other threads in this forum about re-flowing the GPU (or something like that).
I tried it but it still freezes, anyway maybe i'll just sell it as parts...

Thanks,

A31 Reboot Problem

A31 Reboot Problem

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