Total loss right? (pictures inside) FIXED, thanks Ardnt

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thejaredhuang · #1 Post by **thejaredhuang** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:53 pm

I was trying to reflow the GPU on my T41P and this is what happened.

The GPU is off the motherboard and the solder has melted to other pins. I only have 2 options right? Part out or find a new motherboard?

I can solder pretty well. If i could clean off the solder could I put some new solder on and redo it?

ThinkPad · #2 Post by **ThinkPad** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:55 pm

a new motherboard might be needed

visionviper · #3 Post by **visionviper** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:07 pm

You can probably send it in to a place that does BGA reballing. They will be able to put it all back together unless the chip got damaged in some way. Even then, there might be some places that have the parts to replace it.

thejaredhuang · #4 Post by **thejaredhuang** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:11 pm

Do you know of any places? If it costs more than $100 I'm just going to part it out.

aaa · #5 Post by **aaa** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:26 pm

There's here:
http://www.firstphasetech.com/ibook-repair-g3-g4.html

But chances of success seem slim. You can ask them to be sure.

thejaredhuang · #6 Post by **thejaredhuang** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:38 pm

Thanks, but why would success be slim?

cmarti · #7 Post by **cmarti** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:03 pm

Advise...

Buy a new mobo.

Question, how do you applied the heat?

sjthinkpader · #8 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:05 pm

I think it is not worthwhile to fix your current board.

The older pre-RoHS MB solder melding point is about 225 deg C. The RoHS melding point is about 245 deg C. I think the corner balls are the ones get separated. So I recommend and want to try the following myself:

1. Place 4 beads of RTV as support of the GPU during the reflow process. One on each side about midway between the corners.
2. Cut a small right angle triangle in a aluminum plate exposing only one corner of the chip. Turn down a small lip about 4-5mm to protect surrounding components.
3. Use a temperature controlled hot air pencil and reflow the two outside corners, closest to the Ultrabay.

When I press down the outside corners of the GPU, my failed board would work for a little while. It is common for BGA to fail due to Temperature Expansion Coefficient (TEC) mismatch of the different material used in the early days. The ATI MCP used in T4x may have a poorly designed MCP. While physical bending by holding the palm rest area may also be a cause, I think the temperature cycling of the T4x from startup and shutdown is the main cause.

#9 Post by **underclocker** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:15 pm

Ouch. I vote that this thread becomes a sticky, too.

Time for a new mobo.

sojourner · #10 Post by **sojourner** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:55 am

thejaredhuang wrote:I can solder pretty well. If i could clean off the solder could I put some new solder on and redo it?

If you REALLY want to try removing the solder blobs and try resoldering I'd go for it, only, be very careful in the dry ELECTROSTATICALLY charged winter air to not zap the MOBO. Wrist grounding straps work well to help prevent static discharge between you and the device. Lastly, you can buy a 'solder wick' to quickly and easily remove excess solder. They make solder 'suckers' too (I own both) but for this situation probably the wick would work better.

A word of CAUTION: it can be very easy to inadvertently pull off one of those little copper pads doing either of these methods (too much heat, not enough heat) so you are doing it at your risk!

BTW: here is a YouTube link showing how a GPU is reballed (which would likely need to be done)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2wV4PzpW4XU&feature=related

aaa · #11 Post by **aaa** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:22 am

The solder should be easy to clean off if it didn't get on any other components. Putting it back on is the hard part. You will need the right size solder balls at least, not just regular solder. I don't think it will be simple.

Anyways, the site I linked already says that their reballing has a 50% success rate, and they don't usually do this type of chip (presumably it can only be heated up X number of times or something).

thejaredhuang · #12 Post by **thejaredhuang** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:20 pm

Ok thanks guys. I got impatient when I was reflowing and I pulled the foil off too soon. Some of it was under the GPU so it pulled off too. I'm pretty sure thats what happened.

Hopefully one of the companies I emailed can fix it.

joester · #13 Post by **joester** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:40 pm

FWIW,
One of our most experienced rework people (16 years) where I work runs our 2 BGA rework machines. For almost a year, she insisted she could re-ball a device using nothing but wire solder, and that she would have enough solder to the bottom of the device to provide a solid contact.
We finally let her try on a dead board, and verified the results via X-Ray.
On a device with 256 contacts, she made most of them, but about 10% were not connected. It shut her up quick.
I would also like to point out that the machines use a "no contact" method of removing solder... because contact will dislodge the solder pads. The surface area of the pad is too small to provide adhesion at reflow temperature in most cases. Your chances of wicking off the pads without damage are slim unless you have some pretty expensive tools at hand and a fair deal of experience.

It's your board, and your call, but I would farm that puppy out to a shop equipt for such repairs.

Joe

thejaredhuang · #14 Post by **thejaredhuang** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:15 pm

Thanks Joe,

I'm not touching it until I hear back from some companies that I emailed.

I'm still pretty bummed about it. If I part out everything I estimated that I could make around 250. Is that a good ball park?

#15 Post by **richk** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:55 pm

I think you will get less than that figure. (closer to $200)

jamiphar · #16 Post by **jamiphar** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:20 pm

PM sent about reflowing.

sjthinkpader · #17 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:38 am

joester wrote:...

It's your board, and your call, but I would farm that puppy out to a shop equipt for such repairs.

Joe

Yes, I've watched a production ball attachment machine work. The balls are purchased from companies that makes them and formulated to that machine process, pretty specialized stuff.

The underside of the chip is actually cupped. So each ball is sitting in a recess.

The recommended solder reflow temperature profile has a preheat stage, about 20-30 deg below the reflow temperature. The reflow temperature duration is actually very short. This is very hard to duplicate without an expensive reflow oven.

joester · #18 Post by **joester** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:23 pm

Another issue to consider is that most chips only take reflow temperatures a few times. We have the 3 strikes you're out rule here at work. Once when the chip is mounted during initial production, that leaves two chances. having a mistake like the above pictures show is number 2 (no pun intended), and re-attaching balls is 3. Might be better to find a replacement chip if possible.
This chip will have been to a CONTROLLED reflow 3 times with one that was at an unknown temperature (downside to home repair with a heat gun). If that temperature was above the chip's maximum allowable temperature, It's toast anyway.

t20user · #19 Post by **t20user** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:12 pm

This is the company that I use local...

http://solder.net/

They are excellent at rework. I would guess you are looking at $200+ as others have stated. If you go for it on your own thinking you have nothing to lose then you will need a reballing kit for the BGA and a stencil for the board along with some solder paste.

SlamX · #20 Post by **SlamX** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:47 am

Save the brain damage and just get a replacement motherboard. Under $200 on Ebay.

Robbyrobot · #21 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:58 am

sjthinkpader wrote:1. Place 4 beads of RTV as support of the GPU during the reflow process.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is "RTV"?

cmarti · #22 Post by **cmarti** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:08 am

Robbyrobot wrote: Sorry for my ignorance, but what is "RTV"?

RTV= Silicone paste, the one it's used in cars.

#23 Post by **jdhurst** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:25 am

IIRC RTV stands for Room Temperature Vulcanizing.
... JDH

thejaredhuang · #24 Post by **thejaredhuang** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:16 pm

I'm posting a follow up. James (jamiphar, Ardnt Computers) contacted me for a repair service. He guaranteed that it would work or I wouldn't get charged, on top of that he offered free two way shipping. I sent it in and it took longer than he estimated so he did the work for FREE

. I'm typing this story on the laptop he fixed right now.

Thanks James and I highly recommend his services.

zdriver · #25 Post by **zdriver** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:24 pm

Impressive repair on a board that I would have thought was scrap.
I know now where I will be sending my next bad gpu board.

(sometimes, you cannot buy that kind of advertising....)
Very nicely done James!

SHoTTa35 · #26 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:24 pm

oh really? sweet

lucky you

Maybe the admins could give him a free month of ad space or something. That's definitely something i would do

Total loss right? (pictures inside) FIXED, thanks Ardnt

Total loss right? (pictures inside) FIXED, thanks Ardnt

Re: Total loss right? (pictures inside)

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