Thinkpad T61 LCD quality... bad viewing angles?

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jumpfroggy · #1 Post by **jumpfroggy** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:24 pm

I've had my Thinkpad T61 for about a month now, and the one thing I really can't get over is the horrible LCD screen quality. I never really paid attention to LCD's before, as I figured I wasn't an artist and didn't need much. But it really has started to bother me and I'm just curious if anyone else feels the same way.

Side by side with older PowerBook G4's, the screen quality is drastically different. The PowerBooks have much brighter screens, much better contrast, and quite bigger viewing angles. Is this just a matter of IPS vs. normal LCD's? Are there any options available for T61 owners? I would even consider a screen swap if one were compatible and affordable.

Thanks, any feedback will be appreciated.

Greg Gebhardt · #2 Post by **Greg Gebhardt** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:00 pm

LCD screen quality, in my opinion, has gone down the last few years. They all advertise these wonderfull wide screens which are really cheaper for them to make but lack the colors, saturation and contrast of previous non-wide screens. My 15" T41p screen blows my T61p screen out of the water!

Puppy · #3 Post by **Puppy** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:29 pm

No way, all current notebooks (including ThinkPads) have only low-quality TN crappy displays. Quality has gone ...

jumpfroggy · #4 Post by **jumpfroggy** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:39 pm

I had considered waiting for LED backlit displays, or even the brighter backlight they're using on the X61s, but I guess they're just not going to put those in the T-series. It's sad, since that one feature really has me wishing I could return my laptop, and it's also causing me to hesitate when recommending Thinkpads to others (which I was doing very freely before).

I wish they simply had the *option* for better screens. After using my laptop for a while, it's passable. But the viewing angle really does get in the way sometimes, and the backlight bleed is pretty bad during movies and in darkness (looks like a camcorder video vs. a real movie sometimes, simply due to LCD quality).

I'll have my laptop for a few years to come. When I need a new one, I'll have to think hard about ordering another one. If they've updated the screens to something better (IPS, LED), I may get another. If they haven't, there's no chance I'll buy another. It's just not worth it.

Glad to see others have the same opinion as me. I'm not going crazy.

Troels · #5 Post by **Troels** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:14 pm

LED backlights still have a long way to go to result in better colors, or better "chromaticity" - the problem lies in the color filter and the pigment of this filter. It's especially HARD to make it very good on thin LCDs like laptop panels are, and no other backlight technology is going to help it out

The LED backlights will come to the T series, but wisely not implemented yet due to yellowing issues with many of the LED backlit lcds used in macbook/macbook pro, amongst other early adopters.

IPS is passé, no one wants to pay the premium, and manufacturers rather want to sell cheap TN since Joe Average buys based on the price tag in WalMart or online discounts. The only IPS panels that ever existed were the from IDtech, LG and BOE-Hydis in 15" with SXGA+ or UXGA resolutions and only found in T42/p,T43/p,T60/p and in some A series like A31/p.
EDIT: I always forget this: there was a 12.1" IPS used for the X41t i believe. 12.1" AFFS/IPS also exists from BOE-Hydis, but i don't know if they were ever used in the X6x series.

Like you i can't stand most of the TN panels out there, and especially not backlight bleed. My only recommendation would be to use an external monitor if possible.

jumpfroggy · #6 Post by **jumpfroggy** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:32 pm

Troels wrote:LED backlights still have a long way to go to result in better colors, or better "chromaticity" - the problem lies in the color filter and the pigment of this filter. It's especially HARD to make it very good on thin LCDs like laptop panels are, and no other backlight technology is going to help it out

The LED backlights will come to the T series, but wisely not implemented yet due to yellowing issues with many of the LED backlit lcds used in macbook/macbook pro, amongst other early adopters.

IPS is passé, no one wants to pay the premium, and manufacturers rather want to sell cheap TN since Joe Average buys based on the price tag in WalMart or online discounts. The only IPS panels that ever existed were the from IDtech, LG and BOE-Hydis in 15" with SXGA+ or UXGA resolutions and only found in T42/p,T43/p,T60/p and in some A series like A31/p.
EDIT: I always forget this: there was a 12.1" IPS used for the X41t i believe. 12.1" AFFS/IPS also exists from BOE-Hydis, but i don't know if they were ever used in the X6x series.

Like you i can't stand most of the TN panels out there, and especially not backlight bleed. My only recommendation would be to use an external monitor if possible.

Maybe IPS is overkill, but what do the Powerbook G4's and Macbook Pros use for LCD's? Those are both significantly better than the T61 15" WS LCD I'm using right now.

Crazy idea, but I wonder if you could swap the T60 IPS into a T61...

Troels · #7 Post by **Troels** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:46 pm

They also use TN, but even between TNs, there are more than one class of quality. If Apple specifies that the light uniformity must not be less than 85% (i.e. not less than 85% of the centre brightness level) they'll get this class of displays. Same thing regarding pixel defects

Not that Apple can't have problems either

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=251352

Viewing angles can be extended with the help from different polarizers and special coatings.

Regarding the LCD swap. Not quite, but you can swap a 14.1" T61/p motherboard into a 15" T60/p chassis. A 15.4" motheboard would maybe also work, but whatever is in the ultrabay slot would protrude from the chassis because of the width differences.

jacksonheights · #8 Post by **jacksonheights** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:09 pm

definitely my biggest complaint. I also own a T42 and there is absolutely no comparison. I am always adjusting my display for proper viewing angle with my new T61, its really annoying.

GIFF · #9 Post by **GIFF** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:21 pm

jacksonheights wrote:definitely my biggest complaint. I also own a T42 and there is absolutely no comparison. I am always adjusting my display for proper viewing angle with my new T61, its really annoying.

Oh my goodness, same here! Drives me crazy.

jumpfroggy · #10 Post by **jumpfroggy** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:16 pm

Troels wrote:They also use TN, but even between TNs, there are more than one class of quality. If Apple specifies that the light uniformity must not be less than 85% (i.e. not less than 85% of the centre brightness level) they'll get this class of displays. Same thing regarding pixel defects
Not that Apple can't have problems either
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=251352

Viewing angles can be extended with the help from different polarizers and special coatings.

Regarding the LCD swap. Not quite, but you can swap a 14.1" T61/p motherboard into a 15" T60/p chassis. A 15.4" motheboard would maybe also work, but whatever is in the ultrabay slot would protrude from the chassis because of the width differences.

I guess I never truly appreciated the difference in LCD quality; I just assumed that most recent LCD's were of better quality. I have an Acer AL2216W 22" WS at home, and though people complained about the backlight bleed and viewing angle, I've found it to be great. I know it's not the higher quality PVA-type panels, but it's more than enough for me. However, the T61 screen is just dismal.

BTW, the T61 is a 15.4" as well:
Lenovo.com link
So maybe a swap is possible.

I've also realized that my panel is an AUO panel (FRU 42T0421). I'm wondering now if this is my problem, since others claim that the LG panel is much better. Here's a comparison of similar Samsung/LG/AUO 14" WS panels:
Thread on notebookreview

So now, do I contact lenovo and try to force them to exchange my panel for an LG, or contact the ScreenTek people and get my panel glossified and repolarized? Anyone have experience with them?

XIII · #11 Post by **XIII** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:42 am

I have a LG LCD on my T61. It also has backlight bleed but in general it is bearable.
However, it really gets annoying over time. I have since switch to X61 tablet and have never looked back.
Flexview SXGA+ FTW!

pae77 · #12 Post by **pae77** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:02 am

I guess I'm in a minority here. I feel that color wise, the screen on my 14.1 non wide SXGA+ T61p is better than the color rendition on my same size and resolution T42p's screen. (Note: I have changed the default color profile from the Lenovo default to another one that came preloaded with the machine and this has improved the color, imo.)

Viewing angles between my T42p and T61p seem to me to be about the same and while not great are acceptable to me for a laptop display. My T42p display looks very yellow compared to my T61p. My T61p's screen is brighter and has blacker blacks and whiter whites compared to the screen on my T42p.

All that said, I would love to have (and gladly pay more for) a higher quality built in display. If you want higher quality, it seems the only solution at the present time is to use an external display.

bradhs · #13 Post by **bradhs** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:29 am

We have all kinds of laptops.. Our two T61's both have the WXGA+ lcd's and they are not that great. Our X41's look way better. Honestly, we have stopped ordering T61's because the LCD quality is no good.. Anyone know of a T61 that has a good lcd? Maybe the 15" with the 1920x1200 res?

jumpfroggy · #14 Post by **jumpfroggy** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:09 am

bradhs wrote:We have all kinds of laptops.. Our two T61's both have the WXGA+ lcd's and they are not that great. Our X41's look way better. Honestly, we have stopped ordering T61's because the LCD quality is no good.. Anyone know of a T61 that has a good lcd? Maybe the 15" with the 1920x1200 res?

Do you know what manufacturer your LCD's were? Mine is a AUO, supposedly the worst for image quality (bad viewing angles, backlight bleed, etc). I'd be curious which ones you have.

XIII · #15 Post by **XIII** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:44 pm

FYI, all T61 screens have backlight bleed and horrible viewing angle. My friend has one with Samsung, I have one with LG and they both experience backlight bleeding and very horrible viewing angle, especially vertically.

2 Bricks Short · #16 Post by **2 Bricks Short** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:57 pm

XIII wrote:FYI, all T61 screens have backlight bleed and horrible viewing angle. My friend has one with Samsung, I have one with LG and they both experience backlight bleeding and very horrible viewing angle, especially vertically.

Are you talking about the 14.1 or 15.4" screens?

Are these issues on both the regular 61 and 61p models?

If you could buy say a refurbed T42p with a flexview screen ($700-900 on Ebay), would you suffer with the less capable processor just to have the better screen, or does the newer processor make the bad screen quality worth suffering through?

pae77 · #17 Post by **pae77** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:17 pm

The screens are not in any way "horrible," although it would be nice if they were better. It is definitely worth having a modern system to put up with what is merely an average quality laptop screen.

icantux · #18 Post by **icantux** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:28 pm

Well, compared to my old T42 15" IPS Flexview screen, the screen on my T61 14" 4:3 is horrible. I constantly find myself adjusting brightness and contrast to try to get it just right. Then I get up and go for a coffee, come back and sit down in front of the laptop and the adjustments I made look completely off (perhaps because of a new angle of view).

Bah. I certainly don't do any Photoshoping on this machine. It's not really made for that, understood, but still... Regardless, it's a very nice machine I've got here (quiet, quick, solid) so no real complaints.

Oddly, I find that XP looks the worst on this screen - everything seems to be very washed out.... . Vista looks much better - seemingly better contrast, but recently installed BSD and Fedora look very good (using the source nvidia drivers) - perhaps on par or slightly better than Vista. Weird.

I'm not even sure which screen I have - when I check my serial and model type on Lenovo's site in parts lookup - it says: no installed parts! LOL!!!!!

tbThink · #19 Post by **tbThink** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:30 pm

Another datapoint...

I received two new T61's last week both with the LG panel WSXGA+ (1680x1050) and I think they look pretty nice. No dead pixels and the screen gets decently bright and very clear. I'd rate the screen higher than my Dell 9300 WUXGA Samsung panel for clarity and viewing angles.

Happy camper so far.

Thinkpad T61 LCD quality... bad viewing angles?

Thinkpad T61 LCD quality... bad viewing angles?

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