T30 "Critical Low-Battery Error" will not boot

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j2k · #1 Post by **j2k** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:20 am

T30 will not boot, but powers off automatically from the "IBM Thinkpad" screen where it lists "Press F1 for IBM BIOS Setup Utility" and Press F12 to choose temporary boot device" in the bottom left corner.

T30 - 2366 - UN7 with only original 256 mem. installed (which checks out on another machine)

When machine is off and plugged into A/C adapter with the battery installed, the battery indicator light is NOT lit.

When power button is pressed while plugged into A/C adapter WITH the battery installed, the indicator lights flash, the fan begins to spin, and then instant shut-off (no LCD display activity what so ever).

When power button is pressed while plugged into A/C adapter WITHOUT the battery installed, it makes it to the "IBM Thinkpad" logo screen where it lists "Press F1 for IBM BIOS Setup Utility" and "Press F12 to choose temporary boot device" in the bottom left corner, but after hanging there for several seconds the message
"0190: Critical low-battery error" is displayed and the machine powers off immediately.

Somehow, it either doesn't "know" that it is plugged into the A/C adapter (im not sure if there is even such a determination made?)

OR, it is sensing current overload and attributing it to a faulty battery (even though one is not present at all)

Which makes me wonder if its a short somewhere on the system board near the point where the battery connects to it...? (suggestions/thoughts please)

Or just a shot system board...? (suggestions/thoughts please)

I would greatly appreciate ideas and/or advice.

Thanks, J

joester · #2 Post by **joester** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:53 am

Welcome to Thinkpads!

It sounds like you have a bad AC adapter to me, or a bad connection at the plug in the laptop. My money is on the adapter.

I would try another adapter and see if it reacts differently. I bet it does.

Joe

j2k · #3 Post by **j2k** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:08 am

No Dice...

Adapter output was 16.3V when I tested it this morning with multimeter. Also, the adapter plug *seems* to fit snugly into the receiver... it is not at all loose (a problem I have had on other machines before). I haven't torn the whole thing down to look closely at the I/O board where the receiver for the adapter plug is... but I'd like to wait until that looks imminently necessary. Not only that, but the system does make it to the point where the "IBM Thinkpad" initial screen... which to me indicates good voltage anyway. (right?)

Not only that... why would the battery indicator light not register when the battery is in and the adapter is attached (like it originally did)? I'm still thinking its most likely a short near where the battery connects to the system board... anyone have ideas on how to diagnose if thats it, or if that could even be repaired?

joester · #4 Post by **joester** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:31 pm

I would still consider trying a different AC adapter. It's possible that the adapter runs at 16V with no load, and drops when a load is added. If you know anyone with a similar adapter, see if they would allow you to try using it. (wattage isn't too important right now, you only want to see if the laptop reacts differently)

Joe

j2k · #5 Post by **j2k** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:33 pm

I just tried a 16V 4A power supply from a battery charger and same deal.

joester · #6 Post by **joester** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:41 pm

That rules out the possibiltiy of a bad supply.

Next step is to examine the solder joints around the connector in the laptop. If those are OK, then it's possible that a solder joint on an inductor has failed, a cable connector has come loose, or a fuse on the board has blown.

Time to open it up and have a look.

Joe

#7 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:46 pm

A possibly related data point....

Just got a T23 in which was described as "does not power on or charges the battery". First attempt at powering up the T23 with a known good AC supply yielded the normal "plop" from the speakers, a brief spin of the fan and then it lost power. Oh, and the battery charging LED was not lit up either. Removing the supplied battery caused the system to power up and beep the bad/missing memory code (1-3-3-1)

. Plug in a known good PC133 module, I was greeted with the IBM splash screen, the "0190: Critical low-battery error" and the system powered off. This was with the original main battery still removed. Took out the CMOS battery and it measured 2.93V; not too bad so I re-installed it. Next try at powering up I got the infamous surging fan symptom

. Okay, used my patented left-hand grab and the system returned with the 0190 error. Tried booting several times and still got the critical low battery error (main AND CMOS battery still out). Hmmm.... Installed one of my own main batteries and re-booted. This time access to the BIOS was granted. This leads me to suspect the battery pack purchased with the T23 is somehow defective and the system has "latched in" the error. Only by plugging in a different (good?) battery does the 0190 error disappear. I'm hesitant to put that battery into one of my existing systems for now so I can't definitively declare it the source of the low-battery error.

I can say for sure that there's at least one problem with this T23 motherboard (inductors) but I can't say yet if that has also caused the 0190 error. As far as I can remember, this is the first time I've seen this type of error. My suggestion would be to borrow/buy another battery pack and see if the critical low-battery alert disappears.

j2k · #8 Post by **j2k** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:08 pm

Great lead Ray, thanks.
I tracked down a battery for a T22 and wedged it into my T30 whereupon I was able to boot!!! ...however, only under battery power from the T22 battery. Plugging in the A/C adapter has absolutely no effect (ie. the battery does not charge and power mgmt. settings do not switch to plugged in state).

Removing the T22 battery and trying to boot sans battery brought back the "0190 Critical low battery error".

So, I tore the machine down again and closely inspected the "do-hicky" (I'm not particularly tech savvy

attached to the I/O board that the A/C adapter plugs into and it looks OK. I brushed it a bit to clean the contacts and checked it with multimeter to verify that it was still capable of getting power to the receptacle on the system board (it is).

Then (and this is probably a huge no-no, but hey I'm still new to all this), with it still down to just I/O and system board, I connected the A/C adapter and then looked for voltage at both the connection for the battery and the ultrabay... whereupon I was dissapointed (but not suprised) to find NO POWER.

Does this definitively mean that my system board is toasted? I mean, I'm still all green lights under battery power... ?!?!

what could be allowing the system to power up under A/C adapter power - through the RAM initialization/TPad Splash screen but not any further?

Why would it work fine under battery power??????

Hoping someone out there has an answer,
J

j2k · #9 Post by **j2k** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:15 pm

joester

Next step is to examine the solder joints around the connector in the laptop. If those are OK, then it's possible that a solder joint on an inductor has failed, a cable connector has come loose, or a fuse on the board has blown.

How would I go about diagnosing such failures... am I likely to be able to see them?

... or repair them?

#10 Post by **rkawakami** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:01 am

Solder joint on connector: visual inspection. Joint should look smooth and shiny not pitted or cloudy. Re-heat with a small soldering iron to reflow the solder.

Inductor: gently try to pry the part up off of the board (fingernail under one side and lift). The hard part is getting it back on. Mostly you will find the metal pads are discolored (gray or black) and will need to be scraped clean before you re-mount them. Apply a tiny amount of solder on the inductor pads first then heat one lead at a time when it's sitting on the board.

Cable connectors: about the only thing you can do is re-seat them.

Fuses: needs to be checked with an ohmmeter. Replacements can be found off another "donor" motherboard or electronic parts distributors such as mouser.com or digikey.com.

j2k · #11 Post by **j2k** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:12 am

Are there any system board (motherboard) diagrams available (offical or piecemeal) out there for the T30?

Even pictures of the T30 (2366) mobo would be helpful... especially with path indications or even component identification.

I know that its been posted elsewhere that such diagrams are not public... but one can always hope thats incorrect... or that someone has published something since then.

#12 Post by **rkawakami** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:41 am

Neither official, nor un-official schematics are available as far as we know. My attempts at documentation has been to scan (or be given scans) both sides of a motherboard, host the images on my website and then start a thread, such as these:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=55300 (T20)
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=47660 (T21)
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=50207 (T22)
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=37956 (T23)

Hint: use "documentation components motherboard" as search terms, click the "search for all terms" option and enter my username in the "author" field. All of the threads that I start will be named:

Documentation of some components on xxx motherboard

I wasn't intending for these resources to be anything like a Sams Photofact® on Thinkpad motherboards; only a general overview of what one looks like and where certain components may be found (on the board and online).

#13 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:20 pm

Thought that I'd update this thread with what I've confirmed so far with my T23 that has the critical low battery error:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 939#412939

I am planning to open up the system within a few days and see if what I suspect is true (loose inductor in the charging circuit).

#14 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:53 pm

I just put pictures up for a T30, including a scanned version with a grid, so we know which part you are talking about.
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=60903

PS: Ray, you are welcome to copy those and host them with your other collection.

Rotter · #15 Post by **Rotter** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:33 pm

Hi,
This is my first post here.
Recently I had this same problem with my T30, it just seemed as if the powersupply were not recognized, exactly the same symptoms as discribed in the first post here.
since i really wanted to resolve it because it is a very annoying problem, i took the Systemboard out and tried to figure out how the AC voltage was sensed and of course what was defect there.
i started to look a little closer at the MAX1631 Power supply chip ( it manages the main 3.3 and 5V inverter) and its Datasheet. Then i measured that it was told (by two signals) not to produce any voltage. Since I got somewhat stuck from hereon i decided to buy a defective mainboard from ebay for a few bucks to look where these signals were assigned. On that other board i figuerd out, that there exists a "AC- Power Good Signal" of 3,3V which then is routed to the MAX1631 and various other chips to tell them to start their working. I had some problems finding the source of that singal so i connected an benchtop powersupply with currentlimiting and limited the current to a degree which was not enough to power the thinkpad. What happens now is, that the system was switched on and off very fast since the input voltage broke down as soon as the inverter wanted to start. With that i wanted to trace the logic 3,3V to its origin. since that was rather hard because as soon as the inverter started, the main 3.3 Volts also were present everywhere on the board and was indistinguishable from the signal i was looking for.
Therefore i shut the MAX chip off completely.
Eventually i found what i was looking for.
In the end all that was dead was a small smd resistor (J-5) near the Fuse F2 on the upside board and one smd transistor near to the ADP3806 (G-6 Underside on the picture posted in the other thread with the gridded pictures ) on the underside of the board. After replacing both with something at hand the thing worked great again.
Sadly i have no cam and no scanner, so if someone needs exact part location i would need bigger pics of these areas because the parts are so small ( the resistor is not even seen on the picture here)
The soldering of these tiny smd parts isnt that much fun at all so you would need a good soldering iron with small tip and thin solder wire. Best would be to test on other things like dead mainboards to get some skill.

Sorry for my bad english but i hope this helps someone.

Greetings

givtechnicalhelp · #16 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:27 am

Hey Dear ...J2k

http://forum.thinkpads.com/privmsg.php? ... st&u=29711

I also have same problem as you specified here..
Exactly matching 100%!!!!!

I also strugling last one month with my T30.Still going on .I ordered

for MaX power controller IC and TPC series MOSFETs.Hope it will be ready.

Just check Near ADP3806 charger IC one diode named 25 is

burned or not. is Right?

I noticed in My Mbod it is burned and i can boot from my T30

battery itself after replacing it.Earlier it is not possible to boot m,Means the thinkpad logo screen will come and when i try to enter bios it will shutoff.

Please Let me know if you solved your problem. i also will do same.

#17 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:43 am

@ Rotter
Welcome to the forum!
You did some great detective work there!
Later today I will put some detailed pictures (with grid) of the J5 (top) and G6 (bottom) areas in the thread with the scans, so they all stay together.
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=60903
If you'd be so kind to then point out the exact locations of that resistor and transistor, that would be a great help for others as well.

THE NEW GRID-DETAILS ARE UP

givtechnicalhelp · #18 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:00 am

Hai....Dear..Thanks!!!Thanks!!! a lot for your reply...

In my case that resistor and Transistor is ok I tested using multimeter both junction is ok

Today i changed my MAX1631 IC with a new one...

But there is no use ..i already thought it won't work. same thing happened...

Anyway It is helpful to other people who have same problem.
one more thing i notieced is ,Near to the ADP3806 Charger IC one Diode named 25 and above that a -- {a line) is burned i am trying to replace that..But i don't know which diode it is (Zener ,switching or Schotky) and also it's voltage rating...

i am trying to get one ADP3806 IC and same kind of one diode.i told. If you have any idea about this diode please let me know...
one more thing some transistors named N and somthing sign also i have doubt just check which is that in your board .

still i am

I think it will work if i have you guys help...With hope.......

Rotter · #19 Post by **Rotter** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:03 pm

Hi,
Thanks for the Pictures, i have marked the interesting points there:
On the upside there is a 10 Ohms Resistor, the Track is routed to point (1) at the underside (second picture), then goes through 12V-Zener Diode (2) and through a thing looking like a transitor but measures like a double diode (3) to the basis of the wannabe transistor (4) which in my case was shorted between b and e.
If all works right, there will be a voltage at the basis of transistor 4, pulling its collector (c) from 3.3V to Ground. this is sensed by the (big ic) which then assings 3.3V to the Testpoint (8.) which is the very same signal controlling the MAXIM Power Supply IC.
One problem was that the Transistor (4) does not measure like a normal NPN, its SMD code suggests that it is a darlington NPN. but ether way, if the resistor on the top is really meant to be 10 ohms (what i measured at a working board) it is not a wonder that eventually either the Transistor or resistor or zener or even the track between resistor and zener (which has about 2.5 Ohms by itself) dies because the current through the resistor would be: (16,5V -12V -1,2V -0,6V)/10Ohms =0,27A Which makes 3Watts at the Zener and 0,7 Watts at the resistor). What i repaird things with is a 2.7KOhm for the resistor and a normal NPN Transistor for the "maybeDarlington" (4) and everything works again.

http://scifi.pages.at/rotter/t30topj5im4.jpg
http://scifi.pages.at/rotter/t30bottomg6fr6.jpg

If this doesnt help it would be good to know if there are 3.3 V present at testpoint (8.), if not then to look what voltage is at Testpoint (5) there should be 0V.
I hope that helps someone.

Greetings[/url]

givtechnicalhelp · #20 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:15 pm

Thanks!!!!a lot...Rotter....

i wil try today.......

One more my Experiance...Sometimes it helpful to others...

If anybody have problem showing like critical battery error 190

when booting on battery please check Diode named 25 near

ADP3806 short circuited........?
my case it happened....

givtechnicalhelp · #21 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:42 am

Hi......
I Tested The Following

I measured the top side resister[that is 10 ohms ] .The value is
640 Ohms in my case ....Is it require a replacement?

i am trying to get one 10 ohms small SMD .and 12 V zenor diode

one more thing is

***Right side of the 5 written by using Red color[ in the picture],,,The transistor named 26, i tested using multimeter but it is showing like both junction fully opened.

***Same 26 and some sign writtened transistor [below of 100 ohms Big SMD resister in the picture] also same problrm...is not showing junctions.Do you know the value after 26?

***7 writtened by Red color.[inthe picture].Value of that resistor is 10K in my board.

Rotter.... for checking 3.3 voltage level ,is it require removing of processor from motherboard ?

Thank you.....with hope...

Rotter · #22 Post by **Rotter** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:05 pm

Hi,
The 26 things measure completely open here to (with diode tester) but they do not need to be transistors at all, could be anytihng in that case.
the Resistor next to the red 7 is 10K here too.
i do not think that you have to replace the 640Ohm resistor, but it depends on the voltages you measure.
but one other thing, at my second board where all these things are ok, the Transistor (4) measures open form b to c and only measures 546mV from e to c which is not common for a transistor at all, but the thing is working and original, so if it measures different at your board, it might be defective nontheless.
here i just concluded that it can be replaced with a transistor because my voltage measurments suggested it.

Greetings and good luck

givtechnicalhelp · #23 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:48 am

Hi.....Thank you very much for reply...

i tested the Moboard by plugging AC adaptor and without booting...

it gives 0V at the 8 point you pointed in image..what may be the problem?
but 3.3V at point 7 ....that is correct...

How will trace testpoint 8.inthe image....... 3.3v problem?

with hope.....

Rotter · #24 Post by **Rotter** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:40 am

Hi,
0V at point 8 is a clear sign that the laptop doesnt recognize the AC,
now the voltages at various other points would be interesting,
i have made a new picture with schematics, where it is obvious which voltages are interesting.
the voltage at point 5 is the most important one because here the BIG IC senses if AC Voltage is there or not. here should be 0V.

http://scifi.pages.at/rotter/t30bottomg6fr6_1.jpg

Greetings

givtechnicalhelp · #25 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:22 am

Thanks....Once again!!!!!!

3.3volt at point named 7 is comming properly......
But same time there is no voltage at the point name 8 in the picture......

This 8 point is rooted to max1631 in series with one resister and diode and connected to the 7th pin of MAX 1631power controller named time/ON5 .

I simply connected Adaptor without booting the laptop and then tested the voltage accross the 8 pin...it is Zero volt..
Is it right?or booting is required for checking?

how will solve this?

With Hope!!!

Rotter · #26 Post by **Rotter** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:18 pm

The Voltage at Point 7 is good but is the constant 3.3V Line. Important is the Voltage at point 5 scince it is the point from which the Power Supply Controller (BIG IC) senses if AC is connected. If AC is connected, there should be 0V at Point 5, so this is what is to be looked for. If there is 3.3Volts, one has to look why that is so, most likely either Transistor 4 is defective or something in the line form Basis of Transistor 4 To Main power as is indicated in the sketched schematic.
so all there is to do is measureing the voltages on each part in this chain and look if something is behaving wrong (like high enough voltage at basis of transistor but it is nonconducting nevertheless).
Scince the Chain is rather short it is an not too hard task.
Good Luck

givtechnicalhelp · #27 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Thanks!!!!!Rotter.....Great.job....Thanks...i really apreciating You...

My motherboard Transistor4 b and e is short!!!!!!!!!!!!????
i removed that and mesaured the voltage at base point. Here it is comming 3.2V... Is it littlebit more Rotter?
What You telling about this?Is it a Fault?Erlier you told 1.2V thats why i am asking...Becoz more than .6v at base is enough to switch a transistor.. If i put a new transistor here will it be a problem or any current limitting resistor is required?

I grounded the point named 5 using a 220 Ohms resistor...

It is working ....great!!!!!!! It is recoganizing AC and Chaging Battery Fine....

So it must be the problem of the transistor 4.

The code of this transistor is written as KK ? From where I

can get the SMD code information about this transistor?.

Or a small circuit diagram how you solved?or which NPN you used?

With Hope............

Rotter · #28 Post by **Rotter** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:52 am

Hi,
Great that it is working again when grounding point 5.
That means that a simple replacement of that transistor 4 with a common npn general purpose transistor will most likely solve your problem.
the 1.2V i was talking about was the voltage i measured at a working board with original components.
a current limiting resistor is already there (640 Ohms in your case), which should work fine.
so the only problem left is resoldering a small smd transistor. i only had smd parts a little bigger than the original one, so what i did was soldering the single collector pin in place and lifting the other 2 pins about 2-4 mm connecting them with thin wire to the pads on the board.
!!I have unsoldered the transistor from the working board and tested it, it seems not to be a npn transistor but an n-channel mosfet!!
so the best replacement would most likely be a logic level n-channel mosfet.
That would explain the 10 Ohm resistor in my case which would kill the transistor (in case it were a npn) and the diode as well, with a mosfet on the other hand it would work fine with an 10 ohm or whatever resistor.
So try to get a logic level smd-mosfet.

Greetings and good Luck

givtechnicalhelp · #29 Post by **givtechnicalhelp** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:38 am

But problem is istead of 1.2 in my board 3.2 Volt is comming.....

Anyway i will get an N channel MOSFET......

and will try....

Rotter · #30 Post by **Rotter** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:48 am

Hi
the 3,2V isnt a problem at all. it will work fine for an mosfet.
The 1.2V i measured might be because i run the thing from my benchtop powersupply which only gives 15V so that most likely made the difference.
Greetings

http://scifi.pages.at/rotter/t30bottomg6fr6_2.jpg

T30 "Critical Low-Battery Error" will not boot

T30 "Critical Low-Battery Error" will not boot

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