Unable to clone T60 HDD

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Deb Suran · #1 Post by **Deb Suran** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:14 am

OK, I'm running out of ideas. My backup protocol is to clone my HDD so I have an exact copy on hand, just in case. I found that Paragon's cloning software rarely worked, and got a refund. I downloaded the trial versions and tested both Acronis products after seeing all the recommendations here, and they both hang when trying to clone using the internal 2nd HDD adapter. I would really, really like to find a reliable and robust product, perhaps one that is included with an external (powered or not) USB adapter. If you're using a product other than Paragon or Acronis to clone your T60 HDD on a regular basis, please let me know what that is. Thanks.

At0mAng · #2 Post by **At0mAng** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:46 pm

Have you tried Norton Ghost? It is quick and easy.

Paul Pavlik · #3 Post by **Paul Pavlik** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:02 pm

I use the Apricorn Cloning kit including a bootable CD and USB Hard Drive enclosure (be sure to get the one for SATA Drives).

Go into BIOS and set the Pre-Desktop security to DISABLED.

Make sure Boot Order is gives CD priority.

Mount the DESTINATION drive IN the T60 regular drive bay.

Mount the SOURCE Drive in the external USB enclosure.

Boot with the Apricorn CD.

Make sure to select the EXTERNAL USB Drive as the SOURCE. (this is NOT the default).

Clone from External to Internal HD. This is known as Reverse Cloning (necessary with IBM Laptops).

The clone should be bootable.

Deb Suran · #4 Post by **Deb Suran** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:09 pm

Have you tried Norton Ghost? It is quick and easy.
No, I haven't - it doesn't have the best reputation, but as they have trialware I'll give it a try, thanks. You use it and like it?

Paul, the Apricorn process sounds a little more of a PITA than I'd like. There isn't a solution where you install the software on the primary HDD, hook up an external USB HDD, and you're good to go?

Thanks, Guys. Any other recommendations?

Paul Pavlik · #5 Post by **Paul Pavlik** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:20 pm

Deb: You can install the software on the PC. This link provides a complete list of support files:

http://apricorn.com/support6.php

pae77 · #6 Post by **pae77** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:43 pm

If you are having problems cloning using Acronis TIH 11, using the cloning feature in the Utilities section of the program, then it is possible there is a problem with your hard drive that may be preventing the operation from completing successfully.

I would recommend trying to run Chkdsk on the primary hard drive. If, as I suspect is likely, you are unable to run chkdsk successfully from your hard drive while the machine is booting up, then I would suggest trying either of the following: Uninstall Thinkvantage Rescue and Recovery and try to run Chkdsk again, or obtain an installation disk for the OS you are using and boot from that and try to run chkdsk.

Once you are able to successfully run Chkdsk, you should be able to use Acronis to perform the cloning operation without problems.

I recommend the above because it worked for me to get Acronis cloning reliably, but for all I know, your problem could be something different, but I think it is worth a try if you haven't tried these things already.

Deb Suran · #7 Post by **Deb Suran** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:38 pm

I tried this on two laptops with the same result. Unless the target drive is the problem, I don't think this is the answer.

pae77 · #8 Post by **pae77** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:44 pm

Then I assume chkdsk runs and completes successfully?

Deb Suran · #9 Post by **Deb Suran** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:47 pm

I'm unwilling to use any disk utilities on my primary HDD, which I have not yet been able to back up, until after I have a backup.

pae77 · #10 Post by **pae77** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:02 pm

Seems like a "Catch 22" situation then. I always thought of chkdsk as safe operation that makes one's data storage more reliable rather than less.

Anyway, another work around would be to simply back up (not clone) your important files to another drive and then try to run chkdsk and see if that improves your results.

#11 Post by **carbon_unit** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:37 pm

Deb, are you using Acronis as installed in windows or are you using Acronic bootable media to do your cloning with? I always use the bootable cd to clone with. I never use Acronis from windows, other than to make the boot cd.

Here is another alternative. Ghost 4 Linux is a bootable cd that does cloning. I have used it before. It works OK.

Deb Suran · #12 Post by **Deb Suran** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:22 pm

Here's an update. I ran chkdsk on the test HDDs that had previously caused Acronis to hang. The program then ran, BUT it reboots before it clones the drives. If you install the HDD after you power on, then run Acronis, that reverses the drives and Acronis will overwrite your source disk in the process, not make a copy to the destination disk. Too dangerous.

After running chkdsk on the test machine Paragon still failed to clone the drive.

Ghost's backup programs are available as part of their trialware, but the cloning utility is not so I couldn't test it.

Is there any way to force a T60 to always label the primary drive as drive 0?

msb0b · #13 Post by **msb0b** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:52 pm

I think you should use a tool that can make a copy without analyzing the file system. dd on a Linux boot disc should do the trick. That is, if you are comfortable with Linux command prompt.

MikeM · #14 Post by **MikeM** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:37 pm

http://clonezilla.sourceforge.net/

Try clonezilla and see if it works for you. It's free.

I need to find a Linux based registry cleaner and a Linux based NTFS disc optimizer that works similar to clonezilla. I'd rather run live Linux cds on my Windows operating systems than I'd would like to install more junk on my windows installs.

Another fun live CD to run on Windows machines is Ophcrack.

http://ophcrack.sourceforge.net/

Using Linux based utilities for your Windows machines saves loot.

#15 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:36 am

MikeM, If you want to use a live cd to fix windows look into this. I use it every day to fix Windows. It requires a little configuring.

Now, back to the topic at hand and Debs problem.

Eduard · #16 Post by **Eduard** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:01 am

Deb: I had similar problems at first. Check out this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 818#356818

Good luck and let us know what finally worked for you....

Deb Suran · #17 Post by **Deb Suran** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:31 am

Thanks, Guys. I'll try the Apricorn solution next. I don't feel comfortable enough with Linux, I downloaded one of those programs a couple of months ago and found it incomprehensible.

#18 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:32 am

Deb, These linux things are live cd linux versions that are purpose built. They run completely from the cd, not installing anything on your Windows. You don't need to know anything about linux to run them. They boot up and go right into the program you want to use.

Apricorn is OEM Acronis.

Deb Suran · #19 Post by **Deb Suran** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:20 pm

Yes, I looked at the Linux options, thanks, I don't like any of them.

Apricorn is OEM Acronis.
The problem isn't the software, but the fact that the primary HDD ID isn't stable. It can be either disk 0 or disk 1. If I could force it to always be disk 0 there would be no issue with Acronis because there would be no chance of accidentally overwriting my source disk. Why Lenovo set the unit up this way is beyond me.

And I'll ask again just in case the answer isn't "No." Is there a way to force the BIOS to always label the primary HDD disk 0?

#20 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:14 pm

Deb Suran wrote: And I'll ask again just in case the answer isn't "No." Is there a way to force the BIOS to always label the primary HDD disk 0?

I don't know the answer to that question.

Deb Suran · #21 Post by **Deb Suran** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:45 am

Just an update to say that the Apricorn external USB adapter, by far the most rugged and convenient to use of the three external USB adapters I've purchased, worked fine with their EZ Gig II software. I am disappointed that cloning means I have to remove the primary HDD, which is a PITA, but I assume they're dealing with some idiosyncratic property of ThinkPads as it's apparently the only brand for which they have special instructions of this type. At least this way there's no danger of accidentally overwriting my primary drive.

This is just one of several disappointments with the Lenovo brand. I'm finding their laptops inferior to IBM's. Yes, the price has come down but my T60 feels flimsy, the 15" 1024x768 screen is a step down in quality from the same size and resolution on my old A31, and the fit and finish is mediocre - thin and too-flexible plastic parts; gaps around almost everything that should have a tight fit like the battery, palmrest, under the DVD drive, etc. The 15.4" WXGA T61 seems only slightly better.

Paul Pavlik · #22 Post by **Paul Pavlik** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:26 am

Deb: I also use the cloning proceedure as my backup scheme and indeed, it has saved my a** several times.

I have found that, sometimes, a Forward Clone IS bootable. However, after a number of successful Forward Clones, a Non-Bootable one is produced.

Actually, the drive switching required for reverse-cloning is easily done in less than a minute (I leave the screws removed from the drive caddy and the screw out of the drive cover).

However, I fear that repeated removal and inserting of the drive will cause adverse wear on the motherboard edge connector leading to eventual failure. Lenovo cautions about this.

I have been trying to isolate the factor(s) that are required to reliably produce a bootable Forward Clone. For instance, I am now using the Windows supplied de-fragmenter before each backup.

I will post results when reliable.

mgo · #23 Post by **mgo** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:37 am

Deb Suran wrote:OK, I'm running out of ideas. My backup protocol is to clone my HDD so I have an exact copy on hand, just in case. . If you're using a product other than Paragon or Acronis to clone your T60 HDD on a regular basis, please let me know what that is. Thanks.

I'm a wee bit surprised that Acronis is not working for you. As another poster suggested, run CHKDSK to see if the hard drive is in need of a fix.

I use Acronis 11 constantly with great success. Instead of the "cloning" method I run the backup which creates a .tib file which can then be laid back down on the drive if necessary.

That backup file can be kept on a external USB drive, a ultra bay drive or even within the main boot drive using the Acronis container setup.

What's more the user can create the backups without ever leaving Windows. That makes it convenient.

I would be happy to answer any questions based on my experience with Acronis. I do not work for the company but I am a big fan of it.

Deb Suran · #24 Post by **Deb Suran** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:38 am

I leave the screws removed from the drive caddy and the screw out of the drive cover
Me too.

However, I fear that repeated removal and inserting of the drive will cause adverse wear on the motherboard edge connector leading to eventual failure. Lenovo cautions about this.
Same here. I'll only clone the drive monthly at most, and may go to every two months, with a compressed incremental backup to a spare drive in between. My primary drive is a still-mostly-empty 160gb, but I have several spare PATA 60gb drives, and one spare 100gb SATA drive. I'm sure I can do something with those and still feel relatively safe with less frequent cloning.

I have been trying to isolate the factor(s) that are required to reliably produce a bootable Forward Clone. For instance, I am now using the Windows supplied de-fragmenter before each backup.
I will post results when reliable.
I'd appreciate seeing your results.

gaphic2 · #25 Post by **gaphic2** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:11 am

I did what you want to do last week with Acronis and 2 identical 200 Gb Hitachi's. The drive you're cloning to can of course be bigger as well.

The problem isn't the software, but the fact that the primary HDD ID isn't stable. It can be either disk 0 or disk 1. If I could force it to always be disk 0 there would be no issue with Acronis because there would be no chance of accidentally overwriting my source disk. Why Lenovo set the unit up this way is beyond me.

Did you take a look at the boot order in your bios? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can influence the disk numbering depending on which is higher up on the list. I certainly saw something like that on the occasions when I had two bootable drives in the notebook.

pae77 · #26 Post by **pae77** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:35 pm

I find all these problems to be quite surprising. I never have to remove my primary hard drive to clone it to a drive in the ultrabay using Acronis's disk clone utility. I have tested my clones numerous times and they have always booted up just fine, as long as the cloning procedure completed successfully.

As part of the cloning process, Acronis puts a little utility program on the cloned drive that runs the first time it is booted from the primary drive slot which over writes the MBR to what it needs to be for it to boot correctly from the primary slot.

I did initially have a few problems figuring out how to get Acronis to work reliably for me. One time I tried to clone with Acronis as described above, I got an error and the program indicated chkdsk needed to be run. After I ran it, I was able to clone again with no problems. Another issue I encountered is that sometimes the computer will power down in the middle of the cloning procedure before it has completed if the computer is left unattended. I think this may have to do with some power management setting, however, I usually avoid this problem by simply hitting a key every 15 minutes or so during the procedure which keeps it from powering down. If you experienced a "hang" while trying to use Acronis, it could be that your machine simply powered down as described above.

exTPfan · #27 Post by **exTPfan** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:36 pm

You shouldn't routinely be backing up by cloning. Clone once and thereafter only backup your data. This is easier if the operating system and your programs are on one partition C and your data is on another partition D.

pae77 · #28 Post by **pae77** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:44 am

I recognize that that procedure has certain advantages, however, I feel having recent clones also has certain advantages. For example, restoring from .tib files is not 100% foolproof either, according to many on the Acronis forum. Also, I have many programs and frequently update them. Cloning backs all that effort up and avoids having to repeat it (or much of it, anyway).

Anyway, I may want to explore the method you recommend further to further refine my backup strategies, but I have a question. When you say "your data," what precisely does that include? For example, in Vista would that include everything below the "Users" folder, so one would just put the "users" folder on another partition? Or is the "line" drawn somewhere else?

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