Ready, set, go! Atheros a/b/g/N in my T60p...Please help!

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Crunch · #31 Post by **Crunch** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:18 am

Which one to buy?

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductP ... _Id=377018

Looks hot.

http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellit ... 5239789B03

Is this the ultimate??

http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellit ... 7639789B03

This seems to be the only AP with wireless-N that Linksys carriers!?? Doesn't say in the main specs if it's dual band, though!???

How would I find out which draft my card has? Would I be able to upgrade by way of firmware to the latest draft (3.0) that was just released, and now we're at Draft 3.02 if I'm not mistaken...

That Belkin N1 I know for SURE this one stores around here carries. Outside of that, what do you think of Netgear?? So far, I've not been all that happy with the one AP I bought from Netgear a while back. This store I was referring to has TONS of Netgear equipment...Hmm...any suggestions?

Thanks...

sjthinkpader · #32 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:33 pm

The WRT600N had already been discussed elsewhere.

The Belkin N1 uses a AR5008 radio chip.

The Linksys WAP4400N was release in early 2007 so likely not Draft 2.0 compliant. FCC filing in late 2006 showed a Marvell radio chip.

You can use most wireless router as AP by doing the following:

1. turn off the DHCP server.
2. assign a local IP address so it doesn't conflict with the LAN gateway. Post this assigned IP address on the housing.
3. Connect to your LAN using an available LAN port (vs WAN port).

As Bill had recommended elsewhere, make sure you have a gateway/router capable of handling your broadband connection or system thru put. My Airlink101 33N router is setup as an AP.

#33 Post by **bill bolton** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:23 pm

Crunch wrote:Which one to buy?

At this stage don't buy anything unless you are 100% certain it supports dual band (2.4GHz/5GHz) operation. The WRT600N does.

Crunch wrote:How would I find out which draft my card has?

Ask the vendor...... however. keep in mind that "compliance" to the 802.11 Draft 2.0 specs is a somewhat rubbery thing and DOES NOT necessarily mean dual band support!

Crunch wrote:Would I be able to upgrade by way of firmware to the latest draft (3.0) that was just released, and now we're at Draft 3.02 if I'm not mistaken...

No one will guarantee that for future operability. We are still in the pre-standard stage and it is a caveat emptor situation.

Dual band hardware is now an absolute prerequisite for supporting any possibility of firmware upgrade towards full future 802.11n compliance.

Cheers,

Bill B.

SHoTTa35 · #34 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:35 pm

Usually it's the drivers as far as i see that make the card Draft 2.0 compliant or not.

All the N cards i've seen lately just got driver update which made them "certified".

http://www.intel.com/support/wireless/w ... 025339.htm

Intel® PROSet/Wireless Software version 11.5 and later supports draft 2.0 of the IEEE* 802.11n specification and is Wi-Fi Certified* for 802.11n.

The latest driver from Lenovo is 11.5.0.36 which is in that Draft N 2.0. Oddly enough check this from Lenovo.com

Version 11.05.0 API (7KWV50WW)

(New) Support for CCXv4 (4965AG/4965AGN/3945BG/3945ABG only).
(Fix) Auto-connect failure when switching from ethernet to Wireless LAN.

Version: 11.01.1 API (7KWV24WW)

(New) Support for IEEE 802.11n Draft 2.0 on 4965AGN cards.
(Fix) Adhoc speed shows 0 Mbps on 4965AG / 4965AGN / 3945BG / 3945ABG cards.

sjthinkpader · #35 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:08 am

bill bolton wrote:
Crunch wrote:Which one to buy?
At this stage don't buy anything unless you are 100% certain it supports dual band (2.4GHz/5GHz) operation. The WRT600N does.
...

The WRT600N uses Broadcom chipset and has two miniPCI cards inside. One is for 5.8Ghz and the other for 2.4Ghz. There are a total of 6 antennae, 3 for each card, quite complex inside.

SHoTTa35 · #36 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:27 am

oh wow.. I figured they'd just have 1 integrated system like the wifi cards we have now. 1 chip doing ABGN. I guess that's like my WRT55AG router that i had. It had one Atheros chip on a mini-pci and another Broadcom on another... With that though they only used 1 antenna from each... so there was no diversity. It was ok but upgraded to this one here and so far it's good too.

sjthinkpader · #37 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:36 pm

Inside this WRT600N, the 5.8Ghz card is much longer than the 2.4Ghz card. They each use one external dipole antennae, one of the two patch antennae in the middle and one of the two internal folded dipole. It would look like a mess if they use 6 external antennae.s

For NIC cards, it is easier since it would just use 3 channels from a single band. So there are antennae switches inside similar to multi-band cellphones.

That is also why with an 11b client working on a single band AP, the thru put would drop to 11b since the modulation scheme is different. Simple solution is to upgrade everything to 11n and set the AP to 11n only, or to use a dual band AP. Another solution is to keep the old 11g AP and set the new AP to 11n only.

These things are getting to be like cars, antennae sticking out everywhere. As it is, if you have BT and 11n, you would have 4 antennae in the LCD cover, more if WWAN is installed.

sjthinkpader · #38 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:14 pm

I've been thinking about how to get around this mixed mode 11n performance drop issue when 11b is present without buying a complex and expensive dual band wireless AP/router such as the WRT600N as mentioned above.

The first alternative is a simple one. Just keep your old 11g AP and set the new 11n AP to 11n only instead of multi-mode. To work independently within the 2.4Ghz band, both APs should be set to different channels.

The second alternative is to set CTS to ON (clear to send) and keep multi-mode in the new 11n AP. This allows mixed mode in the network without the 11n AP dropping to the lowest speed for all clients. Essentially the host (AP) and client each will ask for permission to send before sending. Then the AP will use the correct modulation scheme for the client, 11b or 11g or 11n. There will be slight performance penalty since each transfer will be negotiated first. This is not necessary for Draft 2.0 compliant APs in the absent of 11b clients as 11g also use OFDM modulation.

The objective of course, is so that we can just buy the lowest cost product instead of complexed technology such as the WRT600N. As new technology will be outdated or prices dropped in a short time.

I tested the CTS ON scheme and for my purposes not noticeably slower. I already have an unused 11g AP (set to off) in my network so it will be easy to use the other method. I don't have 11b clients anymore in any case.

In my 11n setup, the Ralink utility had reported about 3% of the packets had to be resend even under optimal signal quality conditions. There were no packet transfer failures after resend. Maximum thru-put in my network had already shown to be more than 20Mb. This is more than the typical thru-put of 11g but still much shy of the 74Mb typical of 11n thru-put capability due to other bottlenecks in my system.

andrey · #39 Post by **andrey** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:37 pm

I'm using Atheros ABGN on my T60p with D-link DGL-4500 router and no problems as far connectivity. I'm able to connect at 5GHz / 300 Mbps with no issues whatsoever. Both abgn card and 3rd antenna are IBM FRUs though. Let me know if anyone needs specific part numbers.

-- Andrey

Puttagee · #40 Post by **Puttagee** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:08 pm

andrey wrote:I'm using Atheros ABGN on my T60p with D-link DGL-4500 router and no problems as far connectivity. I'm able to connect at 5GHz / 300 Mbps with no issues whatsoever. Both abgn card and 3rd antenna are IBM FRUs though. Let me know if anyone needs specific part numbers.

-- Andrey

Can you please provide the part numbers, I'm not sure this would be much help for me though because I've read this is no longer available from Lenovo......

Thanks......

andrey · #41 Post by **andrey** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:15 am

Puttagee wrote:
andrey wrote:I'm using Atheros ABGN on my T60p with D-link DGL-4500 router and no problems as far connectivity. I'm able to connect at 5GHz / 300 Mbps with no issues whatsoever. Both abgn card and 3rd antenna are IBM FRUs though. Let me know if anyone needs specific part numbers.

-- Andrey
Can you please provide the part numbers, I'm not sure this would be much help for me though because I've read this is no longer available from Lenovo......

Thanks......

Atheros ABGN card - FRU 42T0825
3rd Antenna - FRU 42R9910 (15" screen) or FRU 42R9909 (14" screen)

The best place to get Atheros ABGN probably would be ebay. You can get the card for about ~$70, which is much cheaper than getting it directly from IBM

As far as antenna, it should be available from Lenovo. It runs $10 + shipping.

Hope this helps,
-- Andrey

Crunch · #42 Post by **Crunch** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:07 pm

Alright, it's up...and it's running...at speeds between 210-270Mbps! I ended up buying an AVM router called FritzBox, model 7270, as well as a USB stick for it. My dad's setup has included AVM products for YEARS, and his router has not needed to be reset since his IT guy first put it in. So basically, I replaced his now former "G"-only router with the 7270. Took me four hours to figure out his complicated phone system, which he uses to transfer calls throughout the house lol...It's pretty cool.

This USB stick I cannot use, as there are no 64-bit drivers for it. I don't need it anyway, as I have the Atheros card, and apparently all my worries about "WWAN yes/no, 3rd antenna internal, etc." were pretty much a non-issue.

The only reason I have liked to use the USB stick for is this "AVM Stick & Surf", which makes setting up the router incredibly convenient and easy! Oh well, if anyone is interested how it works, I'll post, just ask...

Back to the router and the Atheros combination. When I initially took it out of the box, and enjoyed the "new smell" for about 15 minutes, I replaced the router with all his phones, and, of course, configured the network/WLAN. I was STUNNED...which with upgrading my Thinkpad has become quite the routine...anyway, stunned to see the full 300Mbps when I was right next to the router. Well, it makes sense if you're just a couple of feet away from it. So I refresh the page again and again, it wouldn't budge. 300, baby!!!

So I start thinking something's up and put a little blanket over it...refresh...signal down to 262Mbps, and it continued to stay in that area...so yea BABY, 300 was for real! hahaaaaaa...

So I placed it as well as I thought was I could, and I consistently get 4-5 out 5 bars on the opposite end of the house, THREE stories up! Typical speeds have been anywhere 220 to 270Mbps, which is just...fantastic! The lowest I've ever seen was 180. HAH...I love that it doesn't matter if I'm as far away as possible from the router considering where I am in the house, the N router and N card are not impressed. Speeds don't change much at all. In fact, when I check the bars, I get the FULL 5 bars more often than "only 4".

One more thing. 802.11n does not yet equal 802.11n. Even though Draft 3.0, and then 3.0.2 recently (January for 3.0 for example) just came out, so to speak, this is a Draft 2.0 router, and the fact that it works SO well (or maybe at all for that matter) means my Atheros card is Draft 2.0 as well. You can't mix Draft's.

Anyway, I want to thank everybody who has helped me here. Thanks for taking your time to help me pull this off.

I also hope that this thread will help anyone doubting if this will work, if it's worth it, or whatever. Oh, it works...Don't listen to the nay-sayers. If anyone ever wants to know anything regarding this project, please let me know. PM me...And most everybody else won't have to mess with an aggravating phone system, which was really what made it take as long as it did. But I learned a lot.

So it's a done deal! I am 4 for 4 with all of the more invasive upgrades I've made to my system!

At the current speed of...253Mbps, I say..............................

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RaysMD · #43 Post by **RaysMD** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:22 pm

which atheros chipset is used in the Lenovo branded ABGN miniPCIe card?

I can find one made for Apple for a little less and it uses the AR5008E-3NX

SHoTTa35 · #44 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:11 pm

Hey Crunch.. congrats and welcome

WLAN-Dualbandunterstützung für 2,4 GHz- und 5 GHz-Verbindungen

http://www.avm.de/de/Produkte/FRITZBox/ ... index.html (in German)

I was wondering about that and i guess that answers my question.

Nice lil box it seems

I had a chance to play with a WRT600N over the weekend. Was setting up some networks and that was the AP so i configured it correctly (they were using WPA + TKIP which means only 54Mbps not 300). I only changed the 5Ghz setting though as i figured most of them there were using 802.11G

Saw my Intel card for the first time display 270Mbps ... almost brought a tear to my eye. It also gave me full bandwidth to my internet compared to the 2.4Ghz radio.

Glad you are having strong signal all over, i get 5 bars all over this house too but it's not too big so i'm happy eitherways

sjthinkpader · #45 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:27 am

RaysMD wrote:which atheros chipset is used in the Lenovo branded ABGN miniPCIe card?

I can find one made for Apple for a little less and it uses the AR5008E-3NX

The Lenovo brand abgn card has the Atheros AR5008 radio.

#46 Post by **bill bolton** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:55 am

SHoTTa35 wrote:I had a chance to play with a WRT600N over the weekend.

I've just bought one off eBay. I found a buy it now deal on a brand new one for ~AUD $230 airmail shipped to Oz, which was too good to let pass buy!

It should be here next week.

Cheers,

Bill B.

Radioguy · #47 Post by **Radioguy** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:56 am

sjthinkpader wrote:
RaysMD wrote:which atheros chipset is used in the Lenovo branded ABGN miniPCIe card?

I can find one made for Apple for a little less and it uses the AR5008E-3NX
The Lenovo brand abgn card has the Atheros AR5008 radio.

RaysMD might be right. The last time I saw an Apple Atheros a/b/g/n mini pci-e card, it was the ARBXB72.

Found some pics too:
http://s227.photobucket.com/albums/dd25 ... nkpad5008/
http://s227.photobucket.com/albums/dd25 ... le%205008/

If there's another newer one out there, I haven't seen it yet.

sjthinkpader · #48 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:22 am

bill bolton wrote:
SHoTTa35 wrote:I had a chance to play with a WRT600N over the weekend.
I've just bought one off eBay. I found a buy it now deal on a brand new one for ~AUD $230 airmail shipped to Oz, which was too good to let pass buy!

It should be here next week.

Cheers,

Bill B.

You got 20Mb DOCSIS and now a WRT600N?

My Airlink101 300N cost $30 at Fry's.

#49 Post by **bill bolton** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:10 pm

sjthinkpader wrote:You got 20Mb DOCSIS

Its actually 30Mbps down/1Mbps up. In practice 30Mpbs down is only achieveable from some local sites and mirrors, with anything from "the rest of the world" being quite a lot slower! However having 30Mbps on the final leg is great when downloading from multiple sites, while still being able to get good response for general browsing at the same time!

BigPond wrote:Speeds up to 30Mbps/1000kbps are available in selected areas of Melbourne and Sydney when downloading from capable sites or across multiple sites. Other areas have download speeds up to 17Mbps.

Cheers,

Bill

rek · #50 Post by **rek** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:47 pm

Update on the X60t with the 42T0825 Atheros "n" card: it's working fine, but sometimes when coming out of sleep the drivers freak out and tell Windows it's connected to something, but never actually connects. Then it says it's being managed outside of Windows and can't do anything. It still shows 'connected' even if I turn the radio off with Fn-F5! Either disabling/enabling the adapter from Windows, or (sometimes) a restart, is needed to get things working correctly again.

Since the Lenovo drivers haven't been updated in months, I'm not hopeful of new drivers coming out any time soon. Time to go back to the 3945ABG I guess..

SHoTTa35 · #51 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:03 pm

are you using Vista or XP? Vista has default drivers for the card so you can try those instead. You can try some from the Atheros site too (i think) for your OS and see if those work better.

rek · #52 Post by **rek** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:23 am

This is with XP.

Crunch · #53 Post by **Crunch** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:16 pm

SHoTTa35 wrote:are you using Vista or XP? Vista has default drivers for the card so you can try those instead. You can try some from the Atheros site too (i think) for your OS and see if those work better.

I use the Lenovo drivers that appeared the minute I installed the Atheros card. Works like a charm.

I'm not aware of any Vista drivers...well, 64-bit drivers at least.

bill bolton wrote:I've just bought one off eBay. I found a buy it now deal on a brand new one for ~AUD $230 airmail shipped to Oz, which was too good to let pass buy!

It should be here next week.

Cheers,

Bill B.

Hahaaa...Nice find!! Congrats! Some people don't know what they have.

That's the one I originally wanted and still do, if the AVM one will give me any type of problems with using it back in the States.

SHoTTa35 wrote:Hey Crunch.. congrats and welcome
WLAN-Dualbandunterstützung für 2,4 GHz- und 5 GHz-Verbindungen
http://www.avm.de/de/Produkte/FRITZBox/ ... index.html (in German)

I was wondering about that and i guess that answers my question. Nice lil box it seems

Yes, that's exactly the one I have. The 7270, which uses Draft 2.0 of 802.11n.

You can click on "English" at the top right part of the site, and it will translate it into English].

I don't know if every page is covered but give it a go dude...

RaysMD wrote:which atheros chipset is used in the Lenovo branded ABGN miniPCIe card?

I can find one made for Apple for a little less and it uses the AR5008E-3NX

Hey RaysMD, I have gotten that question before. I remember noticing the answer on the label on the card. If I can't find the answer with one of my utilities, I'll open my baby up and get the info that way...

Anyway, I have one more quick question, I want to take the router with me back home to Los Angeles. My dad's won't need it. Heck, he could use 802.11b, and not see the difference...

I turned off the firewall, NAT, etc. on the NEW router and plugged in a static IP of the current IP+1. When I do that, however, there is a "Standard Gateway at 0.0.0.0., which I have no idea how to configure. I have before, and after pictures (see below), as well as the error message, all translated, as it might be telling as far as what the issue is.

This is the BEFORE pic.

I drew a few highlights. Sorry, this is all in German...But basically, near the top, I drew a circle around how it is used as a router. I only underlined where it says: Use this option if the router is directly(!) connected to the DSL connection.

This is the AFTER pic.

Now, this photo shows what happens when I click the lower radio button at the top, which I circled again. The underlined portion's translation is:

Use this option when you want to connect the router (FritzBox) to an existing(!) LAN, cable modem, or DSL router(!).

I also marked with an X the part where the NEW router is not in charge of the firewalling, NAT'ting, etc. The translation for what's next to the marked radio button is: Use existing Internet connection in the network (IP Client). Also, see that I clicked on the second of two radio buttons, as the first would have been to use DHCP to generate an dynamic IP, whereas the second is to configure it to use a static IP, and I also changed the last number to a 2, as marked with the down arrow.

This is the error message when I try to save the settings.

And finally, the error message I get when trying to save the settings as it is pictured in the AFTER shot:

Error in the field "Standard Gateway": This address is located in a different subnet than defined through the IP address and subnet mask.

Sooooooo...I think I'm overlooking a tiny bit of logic here with this "Standard Gateway". Otherwise, I think it looks good if I want to use it simply as an Access Point...what do you think?

Thanks a bunch! I may actually end up configuring it this way, as my dad doesn't need N. Hah, he hardly uses the Internet at all, so this $400 router would be a total waste for him.

Hey, does anyone want me to bring you back one of those routers. The AVM brand is fantastic as far as quality, longevity, error-free state, no resets needed ever, and it looks pretty cool, too!

Plus you get channels 12, and 13.

Whatever that means.

I definitely want it running as an AP right away, so that all of my dad's info stays where it is, and I only plug it in, and go. He's always been extremely paranoid with any type of computer equipment, and with routers, he even thinks there is too much beaming rays going on throughout his house LOL. Well, it goes back to the good old saying of "You're afraid of what you don't understand", so it makes sense from that point of view I guess...

Thanks again guys...Now what oh what do I put in the darn Standard Gateway field that consist of nothing but 0.0.0.0.???

Obviously it's acting as a gateway still...Until next time...

Crunch out...

sjthinkpader · #54 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:39 pm

The Gateway should be the box connected to the DSL line. It seems to be either:

192.168.178.1 or 192.168.180.1

Crunch · #55 Post by **Crunch** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:15 pm

sjthinkpader wrote:The Gateway should be the box connected to the DSL line. It seems to be either:

192.168.178.1 or 192.168.180.1

Ok, this is what I get when I, successfully by the way, entered 192.168.178.1 as the "Standard Gateway".

Translation of the pic: "You have changed your IP settings. Your router is now operating at the following frequency:", then you see the IP and subnet mask, and it goes on to say "In addition, your FritzBox is also available through the IP address 169.254.1.1. It is recommend that you print this page."

I wonder if this 2nd IP address, which I have no idea why it's there, and what it's for, might help.

I'm starting to regret that I didn't just leave it be, but again, I will take this router either back for a refund or an exchange for something less expensive, as I really only need an Access Point, or I will take it with me back home and use it there. I don't know about the legalities about doing the latter, as we don't use channels 12, and 13 for WiFi, but I suppose I can just stay away from using them. Me, stay away from something with a wiff of exclusivity? lol...no...I don't know. I guess it would be best to return it, as, once again, my dad said when I asked him if I should leave the original setup for him and his USB N WiFi stick, and he mumbled something incoherently, but I did hear "I'm hardly on, so don't waste your money", which is true.

So, back to the Access Point usage of the 7270. I had done a "hard reset" you might say, and restored it to manufacturer's settings (except the updated firmware of course), and now it's configured the way from my last post, with the three pics, as well as the Standard Gateway problem resolved, apparently.

So should I have not done the reset??? I don't know why it would even make a difference. What link is missing here? Maybe the router (7170, the original, "old" one) needs to be told that the access point is there and to use it to broadcast the signal? Some other setting(s) I'm not aware of??

Or is it the 7270, the "NEW" router, that is to be used as the Access Point, and currently configured to that effect (pretty much?)...? Maybe IT needs add'l tweaking?

I feel like I'm once again ALMOST there, and am just missing a final setting or two on either or both routers??????????

Please help a crazy man.

This will be it as far as the N router is concerned. It works great when it is the sole router, including the phones, etc. Now as the Access Point, I'm asking that someone please help me get this baby working that way, too, which again, I think is only a tweak or two away!

Thanks everyone!!!

EDIT: I just downloaded and installed this diagnostic utility! This may help resolve the Access Point issue quite quickly.
And here are the results, and the translation of the relevant information next to the ONE thing that did not check out, which you can see by the exclamation point: "Network: DHCP: Yes, IP: 0.0.0.0. There is more than one default gateway configured! Your network card has been assigned one IP address automatically.

That should be telling as to what I have to do...Thanks again everyone!!!!!!!

sjthinkpader · #56 Post by **sjthinkpader** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:09 pm

My preference is just to set it to work as an AP. Bill feels otherwise. Instructions for setting as AP is posted earlier in this thread.

Each country has a slightly different band. So Germany and U.S. bands may be slightly different. My Ralink 11n card appears to be made for world wide. So it has a country code and associated channel plans, in the drop-down list.

Country/Channel plans

So you want to check whether there are band/channel differences between Germany and U.S. Likelihood is that FCC will not be going around neighborhoods with a radio truck looking for frequency band violators. But there may be interference in the unsupported channels for U.S.

If you look at FCC filings, frequently manufacturers will submit same model for test that has slightly different bands.

Ready, set, go! Atheros a/b/g/N in my T60p...Please help!

Mission accomplished!

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