Flexview and dvd/gaming

[Roarak]

I was all set to order a new t42 when i started reading about the slow response times of the flexview displays.

Exactly how bad is it? This rig will be primarily for work/school, but do quite a bit of gaming and would like to be able to watch dvd's on flights.

Thanks in advance!

[ryan]

I was all set to order a new t42 when i started reading about the slow response times of the flexview displays.

Exactly how bad is it? This rig will be primarily for work/school, but do quite a bit of gaming and would like to be able to watch dvd's on flights.

Thanks in advance!

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=569

[aamsel]

Unfortunately, the thread that is referred to is not very conclusive. If the display really does have a 60ms response time, that would be really bad, and I would have to consider another model and screen.
Andrew
Austin, TX

[Roarak]

Ya i read that

Im just trying to get as much info as possible, i dont really want to blow 2.5k and not be happy with it.

I guess thats what the 30 day return policy is for.

[dclee012]

you know what, most likely you wont go wrong w/ the flexview unless you're extremely picky. i would order it right now (since it'll take you a week to a month to get the machine), and decide if you want it within the first 30 days...

at the least, you'll see it on your own. digital pictures of flexview screens don't do any justice and everyone's opinions on it are arbitrary.

[aamsel]

There is nothing I hate more than boxing up a brand new product and shipping it back for a refund. I really would like to have some better idea of what to expect when a notebook gets to me.
Andrew
Austin, TX

[Conmee]

Unfortunately, the thread that is referred to is not very conclusive. If the display really does have a 60ms response time, that would be really bad, and I would have to consider another model and screen.
Andrew
Austin, TX

aamsel,

It's actually worse... 60ms is the AVERAGE, but the maximum response time is 120ms... check the thread below, as I've just put up some specs from IDTech, the supplier for 15" Flexview (both UXGA and SXGA+) for the T42.

Combine the response time with a UXGA screen, where the GPU is pushing around more pixels than and SXGA+ screen, and the combination isn't ideal for fast action, highly textured scenes/games. Again, personal preference is key, but I noticed significant ghosting/shadowing even during 3DMark01se benchmarking (particularly the Off-Road and Dragothic tests) on a T42 with 15" SXGA+ and MR9600 w/64MB.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=569&start=15

Daniel.

[aamsel]

Well, I was considering a T42 with SXGA+ 1400X1050, but it sounds like this would not be a great screen for my needs overall.
Unfortumately there is no other screen/video card combination that would be acceptable to me.
Andrew
Austin, TX

[kangazoom]

hm, so the screen wouldn't even be acceptable for normal DVD viewing?

[Roarak]

I dont know! lol.

Thats what im trying to determine.

60-120ms response time is just... painfull.

Even 25-35ms desktop LCD's display ghosting when gaming and watching fast paced dvd's.

[aamsel]

Unfortunately, there seem to be only three choices:
1.) Find another notebook to purchase
2.) Order a T42 and return it if the screen bothers you
3.) Wait for a few more people to buy T42's and get their impressions

I can't wait any longer, and I don't favor buying and returning when it is not local, so I lean towards option #1. I wish there was another combination of Thinkpad screen/system that would work, but I am not aware of one. Nothing has a 9600 or better video card other than the T series, correct?

If anyone in the Austin, TX area has received a T42 with Flexview, and would be willing to meet and let me see the screen for 5 minutes, PLEASE PM ME ASAP!! There is at least a Starbuck's drink and pastry of your choice in it for you!!!
Andrew
Austin, TX

[cynic]

I dont know! lol.

Thats what im trying to determine.

60-120ms response time is just... painfull.

Even 25-35ms desktop LCD's display ghosting when gaming and watching fast paced dvd's.

There is no industry standard way of measuring pixel response! Anyone who's studied LCD display design would have learned this a long time ago, but for the non-engineers, this is a tid bit of info that could really help you. On top of that, those numbers from ID-Tech are for manufacturers... that doesn't necessary result in what laptop makers claim about their screens.

I'll put it this way, a 60-120ms response time as a consumer-level spec would be ghastly. That is nowhere near the case of IBM screens; Avid recommends them for video editing, 3-D modeling is done on these screens (rotations take a lot out of all the display tech), presentations are given off of FlexView screens. Who would give a presentation off of a 60-120ms response screen?! These are not specs for the general buying public and you don't know how they were measured.

[cynic]

Unfortunately, there seem to be only three choices:
1.) Find another notebook to purchase
2.) Order a T42 and return it if the screen bothers you
3.) Wait for a few more people to buy T42's and get their impressions

This really is getting ridiculous. Your #3 is hilarious because the flexview screens are the exact same as anyone who's had a A31p or R50p. Those models have been out for quite sometime (over 2 years) and have been tested in the field.

#2 is not such a risk. That's why IBM has the generous policy.

#1... go for it. It really is time to move on from worrying about a screen that you now believe wouldn't be able to even display a DVD properly

One last try...
Austin, TX ThinkPad dealers
Click on the link above and call ahead and see if any of them have a T4x series model and see if they have a R50p or A31p. I doubt you'll find display models of the T42 FlexView as it is too costly for them to open one up as a display model (they can't resell that one as "new" so they take a loss) I saw Ingram Micro listed so they should have a few display models. I also saw Campus Computers which I'm guessing is part of UT-Austin (which should have been your first place to look for a display model since IBM usually provides educational resellers with display models.)

You should be bright enough to extrapolate from looking at these models to figure out if it is worth taking a risk to order a thinkpad for a risk free 30 day test period.

If not, find another laptop; that should be easy enough to find one built like a a thinkpad

[Conmee]

Folks,

And just to add to cynic's comments, buying a notebook from someone else besides IBM isn't going to solve display refresh rate problems. There are only a handful of LCD makers in the world, and IBM, Dell, HPQ, Apple, Alienware, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Acer... they all source their LCDs from the same few LCD manufacturers, namely IDTech, Samsung, LG, and a few others. So just to be clear, this isn't an "IBM" problem/issue, it's an industry issue.

Now having said that, I thought the 15" SXGA+ on my T42 played great DVDs. Perhaps I'm not looking for ghosting as much as on video games, but I thought the DVDs looked great. In addition, there are MANY industries (autos, medical, petro-chemcial, aerospace, just to name a few) that rely on ThinkPads with Flexview screens in their design and research work. Again, I think the ONLY demographic that will seriously call into question the Flexviews and their response times are gamers. They are the most anal and picky lot of folks I've ever had the pleasure to hang out with... lol... I should know, sometimes, I'm one of them.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that the Flexviews are beautiful displays that look much richer and vibrant than their non-Flexview counterparts. To me, the basic decision is this: go with the higher response time non-Flexview, or sacrifice some response time for higher quality color/contrast/brightness.

Take care.

Daniel.

[aamsel]

I am so glad to bring hilarity to your otherwise drab day.
Sorry, but this all started because another forum member posted a mini-review of the 15" T42 with Flexview, and then links were posted showing truly horrid response times for the screen. I didn't do this, I was just asking followup questions.
As for my choices:
1.) was NOT my first choice, as I preferred IBM
2.) LAST RESORT, sorry, I DON'T like to buy things off the web and return them.
3.) Sorry again, I was given the impression that something was different about the response time of the Flexview on the new 15" T42's, with people saying that the 14.1" was faster, etc. If it is the same screen as previous models, then I DIDN'T KNOW IT, and that wasn't obvious to me.
Additionally:
I called EVERY number on your list. Not one single one of them (other than Campus Computers) resells IBM Thinkpads, or has one to see. I don't know what a "IBM Hardware Business Partner" is, but some of the places on that list have been out of business for 10+ years. Campus Computers is part of UT, and they do sell Thinkpads, but stock nothing. You have to buy and order one. They specialize in Apple.
Cheers,
Andrew
Austin, TX

Unfortunately, there seem to be only three choices:
1.) Find another notebook to purchase
2.) Order a T42 and return it if the screen bothers you
3.) Wait for a few more people to buy T42's and get their impressions

This really is getting ridiculous. Your #3 is hilarious because the flexview screens are the exact same as anyone who's had a A31p or R50p. Those models have been out for quite sometime (over 2 years) and have been tested in the field.

#2 is not such a risk. That's why IBM has the generous policy.

#1... go for it. It really is time to move on from worrying about a screen that you now believe wouldn't be able to even display a DVD properly

One last try...
Austin, TX ThinkPad dealers
Click on the link above and call ahead and see if any of them have a T4x series model and see if they have a R50p or A31p. I doubt you'll find display models of the T42 FlexView as it is too costly for them to open one up as a display model (they can't resell that one as "new" so they take a loss) I saw Ingram Micro listed so they should have a few display models. I also saw Campus Computers which I'm guessing is part of UT-Austin (which should have been your first place to look for a display model since IBM usually provides educational resellers with display models.)

You should be bright enough to extrapolate from looking at these models to figure out if it is worth taking a risk to order a thinkpad for a risk free 30 day test period.

If not, find another laptop; that should be easy enough to find one built like a a thinkpad

[aamsel]

Didn't you send your 15" Flexview back for a refund???
You claimed to have done so partially over one dead pixel, but it sounded like you were not "sold" on the screen. Since this (the 15" SXGA+) is precisely the only system I am interested in, I gave weight to your "dissatisfaction" with it.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I did read what you wrote.
Andrew
Austin, TX

Folks,

And just to add to cynic's comments, buying a notebook from someone else besides IBM isn't going to solve display refresh rate problems. There are only a handful of LCD makers in the world, and IBM, Dell, HPQ, Apple, Alienware, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Acer... they all source their LCDs from the same few LCD manufacturers, namely IDTech, Samsung, LG, and a few others. So just to be clear, this isn't an "IBM" problem/issue, it's an industry issue.

Now having said that, I thought the 15" SXGA+ on my T42 played great DVDs. Perhaps I'm not looking for ghosting as much as on video games, but I thought the DVDs looked great. In addition, there are MANY industries (autos, medical, petro-chemcial, aerospace, just to name a few) that rely on ThinkPads with Flexview screens in their design and research work. Again, I think the ONLY demographic that will seriously call into question the Flexviews and their response times are gamers. They are the most anal and picky lot of folks I've ever had the pleasure to hang out with... lol... I should know, sometimes, I'm one of them.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that the Flexviews are beautiful displays that look much richer and vibrant than their non-Flexview counterparts. To me, the basic decision is this: go with the higher response time non-Flexview, or sacrifice some response time for higher quality color/contrast/brightness.

Take care.

Daniel.

[Roarak]

Conmee, thanks for the follow up.

Ya, i know im being anal about the display, but it is a pretty big part of my purchase. I do a good bit of gaming, and want to be able to use this as a substitute for my desktop while im on the road. It doesnt have to be perfect by any means, but at least passable.

So, as long as you are saying you can comfortably watch dvd's and play games, then that does ease my mind some. I just got a bad mental image of severe ghosting for some reason.

Thanks!

[aamsel]

Roarak: Isn't it the 15" T42 that you are considering, with 1400X1050 SXGA+ ?? (or are you interested in the 14.1" screen? I ask because I believe that Conmee returned his 15" Flexview and ordered a T42p with 14.1" screen. Isn't that correct?
Andrew
Austin, TX

Conmee, thanks for the follow up.

Ya, i know im being anal about the display, but it is a pretty big part of my purchase. I do a good bit of gaming, and want to be able to use this as a substitute for my desktop while im on the road. It doesnt have to be perfect by any means, but at least passable.

So, as long as you are saying you can comfortably watch dvd's and play games, then that does ease my mind some. I just got a bad mental image of severe ghosting for some reason.

Thanks!

[aamsel]

OK, just to put this screen response time thing to bed:
The response times for the Flexview and non-Flexview were posted. They are definately slow, but you (Conmee) are saying that they are acceptable for DVD's.
You have posted that the LCD specs for most screens will be similar.
Do you (or does anyone) know what the specs are for a Dell Ultrasharp 15" display (don't want one, just want to know the specs for comparison).
Thanks,
Andrew
Austin, TX

[Roarak]

Yeah, 15" sxvga+ T42 w/ 64m 9600.

And from looking at the tabook, i dont think i can get the 9600 w/ the xga screen. (xga doesnt bother me so much, my eyes suck)

[dclee012]

perhaps there should be a sub forum for new thinkpad buyers...

[aamsel]

No, yours is the identical configuration that I am considering. Nothing else works, the XGA screens all come with lesser video cards.
Andrew
Austin, TX

Yeah, 15" sxvga+ T42 w/ 64m 9600.

And from looking at the tabook, i dont think i can get the 9600 w/ the xga screen. (xga doesnt bother me so much, my eyes suck)

[aamsel]

Thanks so much for your hospitality!!
Andrew
Austin, TX

perhaps there should be a sub forum for new thinkpad buyers...

[Mofongo]

Conmee, thanks for the follow up.

Ya, i know im being anal about the display, but it is a pretty big part of my purchase. I do a good bit of gaming, and want to be able to use this as a substitute for my desktop while im on the road. It doesnt have to be perfect by any means, but at least passable.

So, as long as you are saying you can comfortably watch dvd's and play games, then that does ease my mind some. I just got a bad mental image of severe ghosting for some reason.

Thanks!

I have a 15" UXGA flexview 2379-DYU and I love it! For me, I use the machine more than 90% for web browsing and work-related things (mostly in Linux) and watching DVDs. For all of those things, the Flexview display is absolutely fantastic. The remaining 10% of use is gaming while on the road. For fast-paced games, I do notice the ghosting but it's not really that bad. I tried playing Enter the Matrix on my T42p and still had lots of fun even though I could see the slow pixel response if I looked for it. It's not really that hard to tune it out. For Neverwinter nights it's only noticeable if you look closely for it. So yes, it's noticeable, but it's not really that bad. If I play a DVD (which runs at 30 frames per sec) I don't notice a thing.

Laptops are a compromise between performance, battery life, and portability. If the pixel response were higher for the IPS display, then it would use more power and probably be bulkier. So really, it just boils down to whether you want a dimmer, lower contrast display with good pixel response or a flexview with slower pixels. For me personally, I could not dream of giving up the Flexview for the things I use my laptop for 90% of the time. I can still happily play games on this for hours. So really, it just depends on what is important for you.

Mofongo

[Conmee]

I loved the 15" SXGA+ Flexview, and I think it's superior to the 14" in all ways except the response time. But here's my laundry list of reasons for returning the T42 (2373CYU), for those that are interested... lol

This comes from another thread, btw:

"In the end, I RMA'd my T42 (2373CYU 15" SXGA+) because it had a stuck pixel, I under-estimated my preference for the smaller 14" T42p (the 15" T42 isn't that much bigger/heavier, but it IS bigger/heavier nonetheless), had second-thoughts about battery life (less on 15" systems), and figured that the extra VRAM on the FireGL would give me more flexibility insofar as gaming is concerned when combined with an external monitor (the extra memory to handle more textures) than the bigger/brighter screen with less VRAM (15" SXGA+ are only paired with MR9600 w/64MB... otherwise, I might have actually ordered another 15" SXGA+ T42 but with the FireGL and 128MB VRAM). And the 15" UXGA is out of the question for me. I feel that screen is definitely a recipe for blindness, lol... even tho' Bill is 165 years old and swears by his R50p screen, and most programmers prefer screen real estate at all costs, readability be [censored]... lol"

Mofongo, and others, I hope this helps.

Daniel.