Spring 2008 Vista Summary for JDH (updated to Summer 2008)

[jdhurst]

So far, Vista for me has been a failure. <- Spring 2008 - see later in the thread for Summer update with some successes,
1. It runs and runs reliably - no issue there.

2. Windows Explorer was brutally and ruthlessly butchered and cannot maintain my settings for Details only in ALL folders. Eventually it reverts back to kindergarten pictures and I have to start all over.

3. Wireless does not work. I got a second adapter so that is not the problem. I got a new router. However, it could be:
(a) the wireless NIC hardware design
(b) the wireless adapter driver (latest) design is faulty
(c) the router firmware design is faulty.
The router works perfectly with XP so (c) is not a likely answer.

4. SafeNet SoftRemote V11.1 for Vista 64-bit fails totally. Number 4 is a total knockout factor. Without access to clients, Vista remains a non-starter.

5. Network shares disconnect. (I think this may be related to 3, but I don't know).

6. Offline files are an abysmal failure. They are highly error-prone (hundreds of sync errors in a month versus no errors in 5 years with age-old Briefcase). The Sync Icon does not work. I have to open Offline files and sync with the Explorer toolbar.

7. Windows Explorer does not allow placing Delete, Cut, Copy and Paste icons in the menu bar. A known and unfixable defect.

So in summary, Vista delivers about 1/2 of what XP delivers for four times the computer, four time the disk space used and four times the memory.

I keep soldiering on, but at the slow rate of progress, Windows 7 will be out.

I am not saying Vista doesn't work, and not saying the other people should not use it. But after a lot of money (thousands including new computer, OS, new software (tons), new router, and new print server), it cannot do what I need to run a business. My needs are blistering in that I must run whatever a client throws at me. XP can do this.

I think it is time for an Intel wireless adapter, but I hold no real hope for a wireless fix. It it does (under 25 percent probability) it may fix network shares as well.

Does anyone have any idea on Number 4?

I have an XP laptop, so I am not going to upgrade my T61 to XP at this point. Perhaps some more months will bring new upgrades, but my June target for production is off the table.
... JDH

[GomJabbar]

Regarding Number 4: I don't want to waste your time JD, but I put my Google fingers to work to see if anything interesting came up. I don't claim to know much about VPN.

I ran into the exact same problem when running Windows Vista 64 bit. You could always use the built in VPN client for windows, but you will have to set yourself up with a PPTP or L2TP VPN Connection on the firewall. I recommend using the L2TP connection as it is more secure. You should be able to set that up on a PIX or an ASA. You also have the option of using Cisco's AnyConnect VPN Client that is SSL based. You will need a Pix or and ASA that is capable of running SSL VPN for that to work though. Hope this helps!

The only IPSEC VPN Client that I have successfully tested in is from Safenet called soft remote. This is assuming the 64Bit OS is Windows.

I need a Cisco VPN client that is compatible with a 64-bit OS. Does this exist yet, if so where can I find it?

Windows Vista uses TCP / IP as its standard network protocol. For a Windows Vista-based computer to connect to a Macintosh or NetWare server, you must use a protocol that is compatible with the server. NWLink is the Microsoft implementation of the Novell IPX / SPX protocol, which allows you to connect to NetWare file and print servers. However, the IPX / SPX protocol is not available on Windows Vista 64-Bit Edition.

[Vista] How to connect with Netware server

[jdhurst]

Thanks, GOM: I still work at this.

Does anyone use Vista Business 64-bit as a business-only, multi-client machine? and if so, how do you connect into your clients?

At this point, Windows VPN and SafeNet VPN do not work for me, and unless I can solve those problems, my Vista investment is a write-off.

Thank you, ... JDH

[jdhurst]

No answer to my question ! Interesting.

I have yet to see a single instance of Vista on the laptop of a road warrior.

The situation got worse with SafeNet in that my tests were done on a wired connection and yesterday I found that SafeNet conflicts with wireless to the point of repeatable BSOD's. I had to disable the wireless NIC, restart and uninstall SafeNet entirely to get Vista to run reliably.

The issue is in SafeNet's hands, but at this point Vista is totally useless to me.
... JDH

[bill bolton]

I have yet to see a single instance of Vista on the laptop of a road warrior.

I'm seeing it a lot with the road warriors I come across.

Cheers,

Bill

[erik]

I have yet to see a single instance of Vista on the laptop of a road warrior.

johnson & johnson has over 100,000 thinkpads deployed and are moving all of them to vista.   the guy in charge of the move is one of my neighbors.   i'm sure there are more than a few road warriors in that bunch.

and, fwiw, my X300 has server 2008 on it and sees a healthy amount of travel time.   i wouldn't call myself a road warrior though -- but that's mostly because i loathe the term.

[jdhurst]

The situation is easier with Vista 32-bit and the people I know using Vista (homeowners, generally) are using 32-bit.

I am biding my time as I am sure SafeNet will fix the bug, and then I can get on with using Vista in production. I have the machine running, Office 2007 Pro loaded, and the newest version of Symantec Endpoint Protection, so I am otherwise ready to go.
... JDH

[jdhurst]

<snip> I wouldn't call myself a road warrior though -- but that's mostly because i loathe the term.

I run hot and cold on the term.

However, on my T41 XP Laptop, I have:

Wired ethernet
802.11 Wireless ethernet
Sony Ericsson cellular internet
Agere Systems 56K Modem
Local Ontario province-wide dial-up internet via Sympatico
World Wide dial-up internet via dialer.net (iPass)
World Wide (highly scattered and not very useable) iPass wireless

So I can carry my laptop anywhere I want, and in some way with all the above, connect and then VPN to any client to assist them. I have gone half-way around the world working in this fashion.

... JDH

[erik]

i just have a blackberry with wifi and an X300 with a whole bunch o' antennas.   if i can't connect to the 'net or a cell signal, i call it a vacation.

[jdhurst]

Light at the end of the tunnel?

I don't know for sure, but:

1. File Explorer, Xplorer2 Lite (both free) and Xplorer2 Pro (cheap) look like reasonable replacements for the massacared and botched mess of Vista explorer. All three of these permit Cut, Copy and Paste (disallowed by Vista explorer) and treat *all* folder views the way you set one instead of having diarrhoea all over the screen like Vista's tool.

2. Offline files continues to be a mess. You can corrupt and break them before you can count to 1. Further they are so badly screwed up the Intuit won't even support them, so one cannot load a ledger from an offline folder. QuickBooks support has a lot of unhappy user over this one.

However, somewhere along the line, I was working with NTLM authentication at Microsoft's request, and now, lo and behold, classic Windows Briefcase is now working properly. I would have had less the 1 error over 5 years with Briefcase, and I could care less about old technology, at least I have a working portable Briefcase again.

3. SafeNet is working with me to create a version of SoftRemote that will work reliably in Vista 64-bit Business. They have conducted themselves in a thoroughly professional way, and I trust that soon, I will have connectivity again.

4. Wireless continues to be a problem, and I am considering an Intel card. I am reluctant to pour more money at Vista (thousands so far), but I may have to.

... JDH

[GomJabbar]

I read this thread with interest JD. I learn things about Vista that I haven't experienced because I don't use these particular features. My needs are much more modest than yours. Regardless, I do like to keep up with the state of Microsoft's latest OS.

Keep the updates coming.

[hellosailor]

JDH, I'm also less than fully delighted with Vista but overall I can't say I'm anywhere near that unhappy with it.

You need ICONS for cut/paste/delete? You've got to be kidding me, those work with the same keychords since the 1980's, by now anyone who uses Windows shouldn't need any help making those functions work without a mouse or icons.

Methinks you're being a bit too hard on the new kid. Vista may have its problems, but in all the years I've never heard anyone complain about needing ICONS to make deletes & such from the Windows Explorer.

Folder views? Yeah, they moved all the furniture again and sometimes it bedevils me to get anything set up in Vista, but you can set folder views and make them stick. I'm sure that either I've got gremlins (unlikely, I take steps about that) or clever burglars (again unlikely, I lock doors behind me), or else too many [censored] upgrades and patches keep resetting things they have no business resetting, like how my power buttons work and who decides to set up the user interface on the computer here.

But I find that the more I stick it out, the more I find there are reasons to move to Vista and put up with all the nonsense. (Not really, but Microsoft pays me well to say that. Wanna join the cult, ergh, program? <VBG>)

[jdhurst]

<snip>
1. You need ICONS for cut/paste/delete? You've got to be kidding me, those work with the same keychords since the 1980's, by now anyone who uses Windows shouldn't need any help making those functions work without a mouse or icons.
<snip>
2. Folder views? Yeah, they moved all the furniture again and sometimes it bedevils me to get anything set up in Vista, but you can set folder views and make them stick. <snip>

1. Yes, I want the Icons. Once I have a file or group in focus, one click does what I want. Vista wants 3 or 4 clicks. Vastly less productive over time. I set clients up with Icons as well, and I see them use the icons. I realize that out-of-the-box Icons aren't there, but it was demented on the part of Microsoft to actually remove them so they cannot be put back.

2. Folder views (view -> Apply to all folders) does NOT stick. I have imaged my machine three times (including the preload, one do-anything and wipe it out load, one try reasonable stuff and wipe it out, third load is where I am now and hope to stick. Folders do NOT retain their settings on any of these builds.

If anyone can see a way (my registry is now set for 8000 different views) let me know.

I will beat the living daylights out of Vista and make it work on my terms. Having said that, it is (in my opinion) Microsoft's very worst programming effort to date. Even Windows ME was better than this. YMMV.
... JDH

[Marin85]

The way Vista handles different icon views in different folders is simply nothing but a tragedy! And this didn´t get fixed with SP1... Once you have used folder and search options to apply view to similiar folders, you´re simply lost. The folder view cache becomes such a mess that there is really no way to make folder views stick for a longer time. What is more, this also applies to control panel if one has classic view (I do). The only way to keep the views cache under (limited) control is never to use the above mentioned feature (so, JDH, there is indeed a way to make the folder views stick, but not after what you did, there is no way back). And this drives me really mad...
As to Vista search function, here is a pic of my desktop, it speaks for itself... http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3654 ... rchmc2.jpg Just for your information, that´s on a 2 weeks old clean install of Vista Ultimate EN-US x64. Index rebuilding didn´t launch, so I had to remove the index and then index the drive again...
Before I installed Vista I had the opportunity to enjoy Server 2008. Very nice OS indeed, I was wondering what makes it different from Vista?!... Actually, a very silly question, but there are a few points worth mentioning:
1. Index feature is per default disabled. However, Server 2008 could flawlessly search in my 70GB music folder... exactly as fast as Vista with indexing (or maybe even slightliy faster ). Vista could in the beginning, but not anymore (at least not in my case).
2. Prefetch and superfetch are per default disabled. Nevertheless, Server 2008 launched all of my apps fast as hell and it didn´t suffer from post-bootup-HDD-flu as Vista does in general. Many people think the reason for this is the indexing, but that´s not entirely true. The main reason is actually the prefetch/superfetching of Vista. In this context, I was wondering why the heck my tiny Vista (so tiny it´s actually not ) has become somehow slow, hmm, burocratic, you know, after installing all my apps (and two weeks of moderate use) inspite of my Hitachi 7K200. Well, I disabled the prefetch/superfetch feature through regedit (like it is in Server 2008 by default - well not exactly but the idea is the same) and now my initial Vista performance is back. But the result of this you can see here http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1084 ... entcb3.jpg
I guess this is the dream of all XP tweakers to keep kernels, drivers and apps all in the system memory

Just my two cents

Marin

EDIT: P.S. JDH, if you use RFA with your Vista system (or any other reg cleaner), it would possibly make things worse regarding indexing and icon views Up to now, there aren´t any safe reg cleaners for Vista in spite of what different software companies may claim In my personal opinion, with Vista reg cleaners are just rests of the XP past. There is really not a single rational reason why to use a reg cleaner with Vista

[jdhurst]

<snip>
EDIT: P.S. JDH, if you use RFA with your Vista system (or any other reg cleaner), it would possibly make things worse regarding indexing and icon views Up to now, there aren´t any safe reg cleaners for Vista in spite of what different software companies may claim In my personal opinion, with Vista reg cleaners are just rests of the XP past. There is really not a single rational reason why to use a reg cleaner with Vista

Very observant on your part, Marin. However, no, I did not load RFA on my Vista machine. The RFA website says 32-bit only, and when I contacted the vendor, they said they had no time lime on 64-bit. I will buy a spare drive and load an experimental copy of Vista 64 to try any registry cleaner. I will not be trying any cleaner on my production machine. Further, you may well be right - there may be no need for one. Thanks, ... JDH

[jdhurst]

Vista is still somewhat new; A September, 2008 issue of Information Week Daily noted that businesses have largely shunned it and consumers find it unituitive and somewhat difficult.

I got an IBM T61p with Windows Vista Business 64-bit earlier this year, and encountered lots of problems with bugs and incompatible software. Some of the software I need and use did not have true 64-bit workability until this past June 2008, and I have been beating the living daylights out of Vista since to make it work for me (I am very picky) and this week (September, 2008), put it in production taking to all my client locations.

Things I did:
1. Purchased a copy of SafeNet SoftRemote VPN software for 64-bit and worked with SafeNet until it worked. The version I have works with wired and wireless ethernet (which is what I mostly use) but not dial-up at this point. I can live with this until a fix arrives.

2. Wireless: I had great success with Atheros wireless in my XP T41, so ordered the T61 with Atheros. Never worked right, so I finally got an Intel 3495 bg card, and it is working properly, well, and reliably.

3. Windows Explorer: I use it and it could not retain its settings. I opened a case with Microsoft (one of many) and they acknowledged the problem and sent me a registry fix. This will probably get fixed down the road. Even so, the registry patch was not permanent, and I have recently had to re-apply it.

4. Search: Mostly works. The Vista search (fast as it may be) cannot find text in tagged-image format files. XP search can. No fix for this. Also, I am finding that the Vista search cannot find text in an Adobe pdf file. I found FoxIt search which appears to be a plu-in and appears to work as a service or such like. I am re-indexing my store to see if that works. <--- update: Foxit works great.

5. Aero: I tried it. It slows me down and gets in the way. I disabled every possible Aero function, and returned to the true classic Windows interface. Much faster, and for me, much much better.

6. Office Shortcut bar: I use this all the time (and I never, never, ever use any application in full screen). With Office 2003, I used an Office XP cd to install just the shortcut bar and that worked well. I have since learned that I can employ a folder of shortcuts on the desktop which I can drag over and dock nto a toolbar on the right edge. Works a treat with small icons and no text.

7. Software: I replaced most of it. New versions of CommView and SmartWhois, new version of UltraEdit, new version of WinZip pro, new vista Blackberry software last week to hook up my Blackberry, new version of Acrobat Standard (V9), Office 2007 Pro (rather than Office 2003), new vista version of iPass international dialup software, QuickBooks 2008 works in Vista, and I just got QB 2009 in the mail today (not yet loaded). The newest versions of what I use and need all came out in 2008 and support Vista.

8. Symantec Corporate End Point Protection (up from Corporate Client Security 3.1) works well. The corporate software is not related to the consumer stuff, so please do NOT post your Norton problems here. Symantec corporate is reliable, effective low-resource software.

So it has been a jouney, but it runs. And BIG BONUS: My record of a crash-proof, NO BSOD system is intact. The last Blue Screen for me was in 1998 on a Win9x system. I have not had Blue Screen crashes with NT4 workstation. Windows 2000, Windows XP Pro or Vista Business 64-bit.

There is no going back now, so in good time, I hope and trust that Mao of oxid.it will come out with Cain for Vista 64-bit. I will be anxious to test when it does.

Other things I did (not related to Vista):
1. I keep a ubiquitous Microsoft USB Wheel Mouse at major clients. Still, I dreamt of have a bluetooth mouse since this T61 has bluetooth. I got a LogiTech V470 bluetooth mouse that would not connect, and the "vista" drivers would not install properly. I returned it. I go a LogiTech VX Nano mouse with a tiny (*tiny* !) USB receiver and it works a treat. No software installation of any kind.
2. My T61p has no parallel port. I got a Sabrent USB2 to Parallel converter and tested on my HP DeskJet 812C printer. Works a treat and no software installation of any kind.

Bridges to cross:
1. SoftRemote for dial up
2. Cain V5?? for vista 64-bit
3. USB High Speed stick (Rogers in Canada) to replace my Sony Ericsson cellular air card for my XP laptop.

So Vista "works". Nowhere near as well as XP, but it works. The T61p has become my daily driver (it now has my Outlook store including Sent mail which I need). But being my daily driver, I am adjusting as I go, adding the bits that made XP a joy to use, doing it carefully to protect my Zero BSOD record, and generally looking forward to further software revisions by vendors.
... JDH

[mgo]

. <--- update: Foxit works great..
... JDH

Thanks for the Foxit tip! I have always disliked Adobe's annoying intrusiveness, nice to find a good replacement!

By the way, if you are a TechNet subscriber, download and try Server 2008 and run it as a workstation. Very fast, and all my apps and wireless run well on it, using a T60. It doesn't have all the irritating Vista "features" we've all come to know and hate.

[erik]

+1 on what mgo said re: 2008.

[jdhurst]

More updates:

I upgraded to and installed VMWare Workstation 6.5. This is a nice and smooth upgrade from V5.5, and I ported over and upgraded my XP Pro machine over to the Vista box, so now both machines are running simultaneously. However, I continue to replace my software with Vista upgrades, so I generally don't need the XP guest in daily use.

I upgraded Perfect Disk to V2008 for VMWare, and that is working find. It can defrag, shrink and make continuous a virtual machine all in one operation. In addition, it can defrag the host machine very rapidly.

So gradually software vendors are stepping up to the Vista plate. All that I am using except for Office 2007 Pro has had critical updates for Vista 64-bit since June, 2008 that I have employed and this is only early October, so the time line is pretty decent.
... JDH

[jdhurst]

And now, after I have it working:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=10303&tag=nl.e539

it appears that Windows 7 truly will just eclipse Vista. The only saving grace for me is that I went 64-bit, and most of the compatible software pain was getting to 64-bit. I am already there, so that when Windows 7 comes along, my software should work.
... JDH