Why Aren't You Buying An X300?

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royhuang · #31 Post by **royhuang** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:24 am

Lenovo will probably update the X300 with the 45nm Intel cores in the 3rd or 4th quarter. So the prices should drop a bit, plus the fact that SSDs are getting cheaper relatively quickly.

#32 Post by **shfawaz** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:10 pm

qviri wrote:
shfawaz wrote:This is a non-scientific poll of course, but it pretty much proves to me that the X300 would probably in more hands had it not been for its exclusive SSD drive that pushes its price beyond the reach of many fans.
Well, of course. Except Lenovo is not in the business of putting top-of-the-line notebooks in hands of their fans at any cost.

The X300 is like the Corvette that doesn't cost an inordinate amount to insure and uses 4 L/100 km of gas. If Chevrolet was to offer a Corvette that uses 5 L/100 km of gas instead, but costs only $15 000, they'd undercut their core market pretty effectively.

I'm not sure why anyone would compare a laptop computer to an exotic sports car. A Corvette is a limited production sports car. Anyone that thinks that any Thinkpad is something other than a premium design computing device that was built and designed to maximize both sales and profits for its manufacturer is simply missing business economics 101.

I agree that Lenovo can price any way they like, and are entitled to recoup their R&D with early adapters by charging a premium. But the long term goal is to sell computers, not to have a few elite users show it off as someone might a Ferrari or Corvette.

That being said, I don't know anyone who buys a laptop, only brings it out in the Spring/Summer, avoids taking it out in the snow, or takes it out only when the weather permits. There is no doubt that Lenovo will reduce the X300 price when sales wane or when supplies of components allow them to increase production thus reducing costs and allowing for a lower price.

There definitely isn't any core marketing going on here. For those who bought the X300 for vanity and/or bragging rights, more power to you. Unfortunately your X300's 15 minutes of in the spotlight are almost up.

#33 Post by **erik** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:06 am

shfawaz wrote:I'm not sure why anyone would compare a laptop computer to an exotic sports car. A Corvette is a limited production sports car. Anyone that thinks that any Thinkpad is something other than a premium design computing device that was built and designed to maximize both sales and profits for its manufacturer is simply missing business economics 101.

even more basic than "economics 101" is "intro to business 100" and the concept that a business exists to make money. you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that every product including a corvette or ferrari is built to maximize sales and profit for a company. the fact that they are limited in production doesn't change this concept—only the business model. limited production sells less product in raw numbers but companies make up for it in resale price, demand, and perceived status, just like the X300. with the X300 making up only 5% of both sales and demand numbers for lenovo, i'm not surprised that it's both rare and more expensive than the average notebook (although it's far from being average itself).

regardless, how do you know lenovo isn't positioning the X300 as a high-end, elite, and/or niche product with a high price tag on purpose? no other thinkpad is built like it or built with the same list of materials. in fact, it's undeniably the highest quality thinkpad currently made. from the photos i've seen of the upcoming models, the X300 will remain of higher quality than all of the thinkpads in any series. those points alone put it in a different category.

shfawaz wrote:There is no doubt that Lenovo will reduce the X300 price when sales wane or when supplies of components allow them to increase production thus reducing costs and allowing for a lower price.

that goes without saying. however, as soon as the X300 goes on sale there will be an X301 to take over exactly where it left off.

besides, as we've already established, X300s aren't difficult to get whatsoever and topseller models can be readily purchased through countless resellers.

shfawaz wrote:There definitely isn't any core marketing going on here.

the last word i got was that lenovo has been punching out sales numbers quarter after quarter. if your "core marketing" plan is to offer an HDD to lower the price just to turn out numbers then you might be in for a surprise. price is but only one factor in this discussion. even with an HDD option demand might still be just as low, rendering many of the above arguments academic. the X300 still wouldn't fit many users' needs as most notebook buyers aren't looking for a $2200 ultraportable with limited features.

shfawaz wrote:For those who bought the X300 for vanity and/or bragging rights, more power to you. Unfortunately your X300's 15 minutes of in the spotlight are almost up.

you seem to have a lot of angst toward the X300. don't you own one and/or have one for sale? if the SSD didn't fit your needs then why did you buy it? and, don't you own a macbook air, too? isn't it the ultimate vanity notebook? aren't its 15 minutes already up?

#34 Post by **shfawaz** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:36 am

erik wrote:
shfawaz wrote:I'm not sure why anyone would compare a laptop computer to an exotic sports car. A Corvette is a limited production sports car. Anyone that thinks that any Thinkpad is something other than a premium design computing device that was built and designed to maximize both sales and profits for its manufacturer is simply missing business economics 101.
even more basic than "economics 101" is "intro to business 100" and the concept that a business exists to make money. you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that every product including a corvette or ferrari is built to maximize sales and profit for a company. the fact that they are limited in production doesn't change this concept—only the business model. limited production sells less product in raw numbers but companies make up for it in resale price, demand, and perceived status, just like the X300. with the X300 making up only 5% of both sales and demand numbers for lenovo, i'm not surprised that it's both rare and more expensive than the average notebook (although it's far from being average itself).

regardless, how do you know lenovo isn't positioning the X300 as a high-end, elite, and/or niche product with a high price tag on purpose? no other thinkpad is built like it or built with the same list of materials. in fact, it's undeniably the highest quality thinkpad currently made. from the photos i've seen of the upcoming models, the X300 will remain of higher quality than all of the thinkpads in any series. those points alone put it in a different category.

shfawaz wrote:There is no doubt that Lenovo will reduce the X300 price when sales wane or when supplies of components allow them to increase production thus reducing costs and allowing for a lower price.
that goes without saying. however, as soon as the X300 goes on sale there will be an X301 to take over exactly where it left off.

besides, as we've already established, X300s aren't difficult to get whatsoever and topseller models can be readily purchased through countless resellers.

shfawaz wrote:There definitely isn't any core marketing going on here.
the last word i got was that lenovo has been punching out sales numbers quarter after quarter. if your "core marketing" plan is to offer an HDD to lower the price just to turn out numbers then you might be in for a surprise. price is but only one factor in this discussion. even with an HDD option demand might still be just as low, rendering many of the above arguments academic. the X300 still wouldn't fit many users' needs as most notebook buyers aren't looking for a $2200 ultraportable with limited features.

shfawaz wrote:For those who bought the X300 for vanity and/or bragging rights, more power to you. Unfortunately your X300's 15 minutes of in the spotlight are almost up.
you seem to have a lot of angst toward the X300. don't you own one and/or have one for sale? if the SSD didn't fit your needs then why did you buy it? and, don't you own a macbook air, too? isn't it the ultimate vanity notebook? aren't its 15 minutes already up?

Let me say this first and foremost, I have no angst towards the X300. I have one and use one daily and I do enjoy using it. I also have them available for sale to my clients. I've sold Thinkpads to my clients for well over 10 years now dating back to the days of the Thinkpad 760. Suffice to say I've sold enough Thinkpads in my lifetime that I'm pretty sure I do know what IBM's and Lenovo's goals are when they introduce a new laptop to the market. Yes, every company wants to have a unique and elite product that no one else has, which itself generates sales, but in the end, its only worth what people are willing to pay for it, or until the competition one up's you and offers something better that people want.

Granted the X300 is a state of the art notebook with advanced features, and some unique attributes. However some seem to be stuck in the thinking that the X300 is some kind of elite trophy laptop that Lenovo spent millions to develop to only market it as a rare or exotic product that only a few will eventually buy. No computer manufacturer executive with a brain sits in a board room throwing out the idea of spending millions of dollars to research, design and create a laptop with the premise of marking it up so high that only an elite few can afford to buy it. Its something that is simply just not feasible in the computer industry. An exotic car? Sure. A laptop? Not so much. Given that, lets review some history shall we?

Thinkpad Butterfly? Thinkpad 760? Thinkpad 770 with the first ever DVD Drive on a laptop? A20p? A30/31p? T40p? X30? X40? X60? All revolutionary in design and technology-in their times. The list goes on. Some of those models listed at over $4,000 when they were first introduced and they ALL had the same cutting edge technology in their time as does the X300 today (in its time). Within months if not weeks (not years or model changeover i.e. X301) the prices of these models came down substantially and rapidly. Anyone that could afford or wanted one could finally buy one. The same exact thing will undoubtedly happen with the X300. Early adapters always take the biggest hit, but eventually, prices of computers regardless of brand or uniqueness.

That being said, you can put the X300 on the highest pedestal and be a proud owner all you like, nothing wrong with that. But to say you understand business, and that the key element of being business is to make money-then any successful business owner knows that higher volumes mean higher profits, even if the per unit profit is less, they make up the difference in the higher volume. Gross sales is just as important for a company as margins or profits. For any computer company, the life cycle of a current model barely lasts six months in today's world. Just because you introduce a newer model to replace the older, doesn't increase or maintain the value of the product line, it ultimately decreases the overall value of it when you consider that the older model will have to be substantially reduced in price since no one wants yesterdays leftovers once the new model is introduced.

And yes, I do in fact own a Macbook Air, (with the lower priced HDD not SSD) as well as the X300 with an SSD. I also own a T61p, Macbook Pro, and a few other Thinkpads. I buy them for use in my business and as demos for potential clients. They each have unique and diverse markets that serve each user/buyer differently. However I'm not the one here making the claim that my MBA or my X300 are vanity products or rare exotic cars being marketed at an inflated prices for an elite few as some here are assimilating.

Bottom line, the X300 and the MBA although unique in their designs and audience, they like any other laptop, are simply sophisticated tools used in ones business or at home to help individuals be more productive and/or eventually help generate more business/money for its business owner, nothing more nothing less. There is no vanity about that.

#35 Post by **JaneL** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:16 am

That still doesn't answer why you're beating this horse.

#36 Post by **GomJabbar** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:23 pm

I find this discussion interesting.

royhuang wrote:Let's be honest: it's naive to think that the price has nothing to do with the prestige.

I agree with royhuang's statement above. Brings to mind another ThinkPad wrapped in leather...

#37 Post by **gator** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:44 pm

GomJabbar wrote:I agree with royhuang's statement above. Brings to mind another ThinkPad wrapped in leather...

I found this interesting too ... the varied perspectives make all the difference.

Whatever happened to the reserve edition? Not too many bought them I guess ...

#38 Post by **shfawaz** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:47 pm

gator wrote:
GomJabbar wrote:I agree with royhuang's statement above. Brings to mind another ThinkPad wrapped in leather...

Whatever happened to the reserve edition? Not too many bought them I guess ...

Available at TigerDirect. Firesale at over 60% off. Was $4999. Now $1999.00.

#39 Post by **gator** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:05 pm

shfawaz wrote:Available at TigerDirect. Firesale at over 60% off. Was $4999. Now $1999.00.

That price actually shadows some of your statements above. However, it is not a apples-to-apples comparison with the X300 and the thinkpad reserve so I'll refrain from making one.

#40 Post by **BillMorrow** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:29 pm

i would LOVE to own a reserve edition..
to add to my collection..
but $$ being sparse around here its just not in MY playbook..
besides the original price tag was more than i was willing to pay for the elite service that went along with the ordinary thinkpad wrapped in a nice leather "sleeve"..

but lets not digress, the X300 is a TERRIFIC thinkpad and if it is true that past is prolog then i am anxious to see what lenovo does with the new models..

AND, FWIW, when i was selling new thinkpads i always considered them to be similar to an ice cube when sitting on the shelf, in stock..
MELTING..!

technology being what it is todays reserve edition is tomorrows firesale at tiger direct (oh!, wait, been there with the transnote)..

edit:
macbook air..?
no way, not on a bet..
its just not configuerable enough..
frozen in the way steve jobs wants it to be and thats IT!
same with the iphone and ipod..

is there some reason NOT to move this interesting discussion back..?

#41 Post by **JaneL** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:32 pm

Well, I moved it to the treehouse because it seemed to me that it had gotten to the "Is, too" "Is not" stage and between two moderators at that.

#42 Post by **erik** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:48 pm

shfawaz wrote:I've sold Thinkpads to my clients for well over 10 years now dating back to the days of the Thinkpad 760. Suffice to say I've sold enough Thinkpads in my lifetime that I'm pretty sure I do know what IBM's and Lenovo's goals are when they introduce a new laptop to the market.

fair enough. my marketing resume includes 13+ years of thinkpad ownership, a college internship at northwest ohio's largest marketing/PR firm, a marketing minor on my degree, seven years of working with two of chicago's largest marketing and advertising companies, and five years of web marketing experience for over a dozen of my own clients selling everything from subscriptions to physical products. i don't know everything about marketing nor will i claim to know anything about marketing, but i've done it before, seen positive results grow from my efforts and collaboration, and learned from some very intelligent people along the way. suffice (for me) to say, marketing isn't what i do for a living—i'm actually a graphic artist and have recently been moving toward industrial design so i can combine my design and engineering ideas into one profession.

shfawaz wrote:However some seem to be stuck in the thinking that the X300 is some kind of elite trophy laptop that Lenovo spent millions to develop to only market it as a rare or exotic product that only a few will eventually buy.

that's the funny part about this debate... lenovo hasn't marketed this as an exotic or elite laptop yet it has an undeniably "elite" stigma attached to it. the truth that is that it can currently be purchased for as low as $2600 plus shipping even though lenovo's website CTO prices have oddly increased twice since introduction and currently start at around $3300.

with that said, the examples given about its prices were purely academic in nature and done to invoke discussion. it was said by a few of us that the SSD might be left as the only option to help retain the X300's perceived high quality. this was opinion, not fact, just like the basis for your side of the debate since none of us except lenovo know the absolute reasons behind their marketing plan. however, instead of embracing these possibilities you've chosen to argue with them saying that they were wrong, and that's the entire basis of my interjection above.

nonny wrote:Well, I moved it to the treehouse because it seemed to me that it had gotten to the "Is, too" "Is not" stage and between two moderators at that.

at this point i'd like to see this move toward an open-minded discussion rather than the one-sided debate that it has become.

Dead1nside · #43 Post by **Dead1nside** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:26 am

Not powerful enough to be a main workhorse. Not enough disk space to be a main workhorse laptop.

They should have made a T300! *shakes head*

lophiomys · #44 Post by **lophiomys** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:55 am

IMHO the X300 is a great step forward, towards the trusted Thinkpad feeling.
I had it in my hands twice and it's really tempting.
+++ It's strudy and light, it has a concise design,
wonderful rubber paint, good keyboard,
it is really silent and cool

The SSD is great.

I've placed it next to my T42p UXGA Flexview, and yes the X300
has a great screen(despite it's widescreen) but it does not
match the quality of an IPS LCD.

To justify the hefty price tag the X300 would need a
+ top notch LCD (comparable or better to IPS/Flexview)
+ in classic 4:3 Format
+ and a classic keyboard WITHOUT Windows Keys as an option.
Given that, I'd buy it right away.

One thing I just noted is, if you opt for the HSDPA module
you are locked with one mobile network provider and their fees.
Here it would be good to have the choice, to insert a SIM card of
a provider of your preference.

Another thing:
I just ran into a problem with Lenovo guarantee services
on a T42p: the spare part is not delivered by Lenovo, since weeks!
Having this "deja vue" again, I prefer to have three old'isch Thinkpads
for 100% backup (exemplifying Murphy's law, I'm on the second
backup right now), instead of just one X300 with NBD OnSite service.

milstein · #45 Post by **milstein** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:45 am

I'm waiting for the X200T tablet too...

Skysurfer · #46 Post by **Skysurfer** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:26 am

How does the speed of the X300 compare to your T60?

I answered the poll with "none of the above" since I'm looking for some horsepower in addition to a great form factor.

Thanks for the review!

Lawrence

archer6 wrote:
gcoin wrote: Quite a statement for someone who has never seen one.

You have to realize the X300 is intended for the business user, as such, the mate finish of the screen, the rugged construction and many of the other characteristics make it a great, all around business tool.

I am very pleased with the X300 (best ThinkPad I have own) and I urge the people to actually test it before coming to harsh conclusions.

Cheers.
I have been a long time ThinkPad user. I have owned almost every model and version in the T series lineup since the T20, I've also owned most of the X series. So my only point here is I know my ThinkPads. It's also important to note that I'm behind the keyboard of one everyday as it's my main computer due to traveling for work etc. Each ThinkPad listed in my signature has served me extremely well, and those are the ones that I have chosen to keep as each has a special value to me far beyond what they would sell for. That said my point is a simple one really.

Cheers!

MOD EDIT: Frowning on huge quotes within quotes: snip.

ajkula66 · #47 Post by **ajkula66** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:55 pm

I've voted "none of the above" for several reasons....

a) I'm really not in the market for anything similar to X300...offer me a X61 (or 62 or whatever) with 12" SXGA+ IPS and then we can talk...

b) I've tested X300 briefly (one of my clients bought it and brought it for "setup"...more likely for me to play...

) and although LED-backlit LCD is miles above normal TN crap panels that one gets to see on ThinkPads, I wasn't floored or impressed whatsoever. Resolution is nice though. Keyboard is like all newer ThinkPad keyboards...horrible IMHO. Quiet and reasonably fast machine, even with Vista that I can't tolerate...

c) I tend to believe that the price is a dealbreaker for many people...why spend $2500 or thereabouts when you can do anything and everything that X300 does with a T61 at half the price...or less...although X300 is a much prettier machine but the price tag is way too high in today's world IMO...

Just my $0.02...

anthean · #48 Post by **anthean** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:09 pm

I'm no marketing expert, just a number cruncher.

When the price of the X300 follow-on drops to around $2000 with a 128 GB SSD and the processor has a tad more oomph, then I will consider one. I'm guessing a year or two for this to happen.

mattbiernat · #49 Post by **mattbiernat** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:47 pm

im waiting for x300t. the reason is better screen.

#50 Post by **underclocker** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:45 am

Just waiting until they are around $500 used...shouldn't be long!

goodgirl · #51 Post by **goodgirl** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:28 pm

I would not buy the X300.

For a main productivity machine, desktop replacement, I need a minimum resolution of 1600 x 1200 with a good Flexview display.
(A31p > T42p > T43p > T60p)

For a play outside machine, I would be looking at the best size/screen resolution ratio, X300 would be too big for the screen real estate it offers. A Lifebook P1620 can offer 1280 x 768 at just 8.9" size, same goes for the HP 2133.

#52 Post by **BillMorrow** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:36 pm

underclocker wrote:Just waiting until they are around $500 used...shouldn't be long!

don't hold yer breath, clocker..

it'll be a while before that happens..

what I really would like to see is something on the X61 formfactor with as large a display as possible given available real estate AND 1050x1400 or something a little wider..
with the facial recognition and a huge HDD or SSD..

something equally portable, loaded with options and communications and with a high density display..

to summarize, something small (S30/X61/240), feature rich and cutting edge..

OR, to step even further out into the world of what will be, no display at all, just heads up display glasses and something new in input devices..
maybe virtual reality gloves..

gosh, i wish i was 20 again..

or even 50..!

Puppy · #53 Post by **Puppy** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:14 am

ajkula66 wrote:a) I'm really not in the market for anything similar to X300...offer me a X61 (or 62 or whatever) with 12" SXGA+ IPS and then we can talk...

Me too. But you know it will never happen. Even X200 is way too large due widescreen idiocy. And there is no X100.

pianowizard · #54 Post by **pianowizard** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:34 am

Puppy wrote:Even X200 is way too large due widescreen idiocy. And there is no X100.

Actually, the 12.1" widescreen itself is really pretty small even in terms of width. It is the thick bezel around the screen that makes the X200 big. I hope Lenovo will get rid of most of the junk hidden inside the bezel to bring back the thin bezels we used to have in the X4* and X6*.

Puppy · #55 Post by **Puppy** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:42 am

pianowizard wrote:It is the thick bezel around the screen that makes the X200 big. I hope Lenovo will get rid of most of the junk hidden inside the bezel to bring back the thin bezels we used to have in the X4* and X6*.

Same answer. The probability you would get the "good old" thin bezel back is nearly the same you get "good old" IPS panel. Frustrating, eh ?

ArtShapiro · #56 Post by **ArtShapiro** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:13 am

I tend to stay behind the curve - it's a way to get a nice machine without spending a fortune. I'm hoping my T61 ships from Lenovo today!

Incidentally, I had to cringe at the comparisons of a Thinkpad to some Chevy.

Art

#57 Post by **erik** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:28 pm

on a positive note, the X300 just went on sale and is currently 15% off. however, it's still cheaper and faster to buy a topseller model from a reseller.

crazyeddie1 · #58 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:35 pm

My sister’s friend (who is a TV celebrity) was in a market for this laptop but she went for Portégé R500 because it came with 128GB SSD, more warranty and a free 17’’ monitor, well cost was not the main reason but fyi Portégé is for $3299 to lenovo $3400.

MGT · #59 Post by **MGT** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:06 pm

crazyeddie1 wrote:My sister’s friend (who is a TV celebrity) was in a market for this laptop but she went for Portégé R500 because it came with 128GB SSD, more warranty and a free 17’’ monitor, well cost was not the main reason but fyi Portégé is for $3299 to lenovo $3400.

The R500 has a reputation for less-than-stellar build quality though.

crazyeddie1 · #60 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:22 pm

MGT wrote:
crazyeddie1 wrote:My sister’s friend (who is a TV celebrity) was in a market for this laptop but she went for Portégé R500 because it came with 128GB SSD, more warranty and a free 17’’ monitor, well cost was not the main reason but fyi Portégé is for $3299 to lenovo $3400.
The R500 has a reputation for less-than-stellar build quality though.

Sorry have no experience with Portégé, was just sharing a story of someone I know who thought about buying this laptop.

Why Aren't You Buying An X300?

Would you buy an X300 If it were $1k cheaper without an SSD?

Speed?

Price matters

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