Hitachi harddisk

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Quagmyre · #1 Post by **Quagmyre** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:37 pm

In my T61p, there's a 200GB Hitachi drive (HTS722020K9SA00). I wanted to update the firmware of this drive, but apparently this drive is not flashable, despite of the fact that this very model number is listed under supported drives in the Lenovo firmware readme. Also, the firmware version displayed for my drive does not match the Lenovo harddisk firmware version pattern.

Hence, I guess I don't have an original Lenovo drive in my T61p, but just a standard Hitachi one. Lenovo seems to sell modified Hitachi drives.

Does anybody know if the non-Lenovo Hitachi drives support the Active Protection System (HDAPS)?

Do the standard Hitachi drives park their heads properly?

gaphic2 · #2 Post by **gaphic2** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:51 pm

Yes, I've got it running. And from the sound the hard drive makes when HDAPS kicks in, I infer there is something happening.

jcvjcvjcvjcv · #3 Post by **jcvjcvjcvjcv** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:26 pm

Just shake your laptop while copying files. Does the copying stop for a few seconds; it works.

Quagmyre · #4 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:55 am

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Just shake your laptop while copying files. Does the copying stop for a few seconds; it works.

...And if it doesn't, I'll have to get a new drive. Hmmm...

DarkScythe · #5 Post by **DarkScythe** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:21 am

If you have the Active protection System installed, open it up. In one of the tabs, there should be a status page, it'll load up an image of your laptop. All you need to do is lift up your laptop, the image should move along with the movements of that action, and you can see if it says stopped or not.

Quagmyre · #6 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:12 am

DarkScythe wrote:If you have the Active protection System installed, open it up. In one of the tabs, there should be a status page, it'll load up an image of your laptop. All you need to do is lift up your laptop, the image should move along with the movements of that action, and you can see if it says stopped or not.

The sensor is definitely there, i. e. I can move the laptop around and see the image in the Active Protection System software move as well.
But even if it says "stopped", it just sends a command to the hard drive which is supposed to understand this command and react accordingly.
While I've got little doubt that original Lenovo drives (which are about $400 for the 200GB version) will understand those commands, I'm not quite so sure about my non-Lenovo Hitachi drive which is the same model Lenovo sells, but with a different firmware (not flashable with Lenovo firmware).

Tony Chan · #7 Post by **Tony Chan** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:22 pm

I think the command sent to hard drive is to park the disk head to prevent it from damaging the disk media. It's a standard command and should work on all hard drives, oem or not.

Quagmyre · #8 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:05 pm

Tony Chan wrote:I think the command sent to hard drive is to park the disk head to prevent it from damaging the disk media. It's a standard command and should work on all hard drives, oem or not.

I agree on that one. However, one never knows.
There must be a reason why Lenovo sells drives for three times the cash than those drives cost as non-Lenovo retail versions.

basketb · #9 Post by **basketb** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:07 pm

Quagmyre wrote: ...
There must be a reason why Lenovo sells drives for three times the cash than those drives cost as non-Lenovo retail versions.

My guess would be to make a profit

Pascal_TTH · #10 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:06 pm

It's the same for CPU. Same CPU (ie T9300) costs much more in Lenovo FRU/CRU than any OEM one.

Quagmyre · #11 Post by **Quagmyre** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:09 am

You're certainly right when pointing out the profit aspect behind Lenovo selling standard equipment with a Lenovo stamp on it.

I'd also agree that for CPUs and memory and the like it most probably really doesn't make a difference. I upgraded my T61p with Crucial RAM and not Lenovo-certified RAM and neither had any concerns doing so nor any problems after the upgrade.

However, with harddisks, the story is a little different. For example, Lenovo apparently takes Hitachi drives and at least puts an own firmware into them. And that's certainly more than just putting a Lenovo label on it and telling people that the drive is now Lenovo certified.

Providing drives with an own firmware might have a significant impact on Thinkpad-specific functionalities like the Active Protection System.
That the original Lenovo firmware cannot be flashed into a retail Hitachi drive which has the exact same model number as the corresponding Lenovo drive may be a marketing trick or might have real technical reasons.

So, it all boils down to two questions:

1.
Do you really need the original Lenovo firmware in a drive to support HDAPS and may be other Lenovo-specific features?

2.
If yes, can it somehow be flashed to a retail drive? I've read reports on the net were people actually did this by using the command line tools instead of the automatic process. However, I couldn't find any reports concerning my specific hard disk drive model.

hellosailor · #12 Post by **hellosailor** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:30 pm

All hard drives are not the same. All hard drive makers sell to OEM computer makers on a contract and price basis.

You want prime drives with less than five hard errors on them? You pay a set price. If you specify less then 50 errors--you can pay a lower price. (Fewer errors on manufacturing is a sign of a better drive, less likely to have more failures to come.)

EVERYTHING about the selection and options on OEM drives is negotiated with the maker, so it would not surprise me in the least to find that features like active protection and SMART were enabled or disabled on a contract basis.

That's all also part of the reason that OEM drives are sold with different warranties, the drives are sold with no warranty to the OEM maker--unless they pay for it. Most don't, they are responsible to warranty the drives themselves, and that's something they have to decide versus the quality they ask for in the drives.

IIRC IBM actually owns/owned the patent rights for the active protection technology, and I wouldn't be surprised if their arrangement to transfer their hard drive manufacturing to Hitachi also gave them exclusive rights--or some discount rights--to keep that exclusive.

Pretty much every "OEM" business, whether it is "generic" video cards or generic dog food or generic cellophane tape, runs the same way.

DarkScythe · #13 Post by **DarkScythe** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:41 pm

In doing a bit of research, it seems the APS runs off a hardware sensor on your motherboard rather than the hard drive, and it works in conjunction with the APS software that I assume you can install on any hard drive.

However, this seems to be contradictory to what is said (I think) on the ThinkWiki, as it claims not all drives have the hardware to support APS fully. But what hardware is there, when the sensor is on the motherboard rather than the hard drive itself? Also, don't all modern hard drives come with some sort of free-fall sensor on themselves already? Is APS that much better than those?

I also have no idea what role the firmware plays in this process..

I was thinking of upgrading my 5k100 80GB HD to the 7k200 200GB one, but I'm not sure anymore - there's so many things to look at.

Quagmyre · #14 Post by **Quagmyre** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:02 am

That's exactly my point and the reason I'm making so much fuss about the drive's firmware.
The APS sensor and software is on the laptop. So the only thing to worry about is if the hard disk meets the requirements.

If only there was a good way to test the feature without the risk of damaging the drive ....

DarkScythe · #15 Post by **DarkScythe** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:12 pm

Well, I'm not entirely sure if you need the firmware to activate the APS properly.. I'm seeing conflicting results via Google search. The HTS7220xxK9SA00 is listed as a supported drive for the firmware, but that's probably due to IBM/Lenovo using the 7k200 200GB drive with encryption. I'm not sure if this firmware can be hacked into a standard HTS722020K9SA00 from Hitachi, or if you even need it for APS to work on this model.

planetf1 · #16 Post by **planetf1** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:34 pm

I asked Hitachi the exact same question before ordering one a number of months back and was told

3) the drive Part number 0A53070 - 200GB supports unload technology you can
read more here :

http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib. ... 0_Spec.pdf

On Page 31-34 and 52.

Unfortunately I don't currently have HDAPS working. I am running linux -- and specifically RHEL 5.2. Whilst the sensor works fine, a kernel patch is required to suspend I/Os to the drive, switch the disk into the parked mode. I don't currently have this patch.... and whilst you can find it, the redhat kernel is highly customized so it would take a little work to integrate. instead I've raised a request on redhat

Quagmyre · #17 Post by **Quagmyre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:34 pm

planetf1 wrote:I asked Hitachi the exact same question before ordering one a number of months back and was told

3) the drive Part number 0A53070 - 200GB supports unload technology you can
read more here :

http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib. ... 0_Spec.pdf

On Page 31-34 and 52.

Unfortunately I don't currently have HDAPS working. I am running linux -- and specifically RHEL 5.2. Whilst the sensor works fine, a kernel patch is required to suspend I/Os to the drive, switch the disk into the parked mode. I don't currently have this patch.... and whilst you can find it, the redhat kernel is highly customized so it would take a little work to integrate. instead I've raised a request on redhat

Thanks for the info. I contacted Hitachi support about my specific drive model, just to be sure.
Let's see what they will come up with.

DarkScythe · #18 Post by **DarkScythe** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:06 pm

Please do keep us updated, I'm contemplating about upgrading to a 7k200 200GB or waiting for a 7k320 250GB, and I would like to not lose any HD protection here.

Quagmyre · #19 Post by **Quagmyre** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:50 am

DarkScythe wrote:Please do keep us updated, I'm contemplating about upgrading to a 7k200 200GB or waiting for a 7k320 250GB, and I would like to not lose any HD protection here.

Although I got my T61 upgraded with the 200GB Hitachi by a Lenovo certified dealer and repair shop, I'm not quite sure if they paid attention to HDAPS when upgrading the drive.

I'll update this thread as soon as I get an answer from Hitachi.

#20 Post by **archer6** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:52 am

I just received this response to the email I sent Hitachi.

I asked about availability, and feature set, of the new 7200 RPM 320G drive, and if it supports all the same features as the OEM ThinkPad drives. I want to install one in my T60p.

Here is what they sent me:
_____________________

Thank you for your interest in Hitachi Hard Drive products.

Our Travelstar 7K320 hard drive will be available in Market Distribution at
3rd quarter of 2008.
The drive that we release will be offered in two versions. One is for OEM customer (System Manufacturer). The other is for retail distribution to the public and is presented in retail packaging. They are otherwise identical, as are the other drives in our lineup.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Regards,
Richard Winston
Hitachi Global Storage Technologies.
__________________

So there you have it.
We may order from any vendor we wish, avoid the huge markup from Lenovo and obtain the exact same drive.
Precisely what I've been doing for years. And it's good to know that I was getting the same drives.

Cheers!

Quagmyre · #21 Post by **Quagmyre** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:31 pm

Well, that's great news!
In the meantime, I received an email from Hitachi support. Apparently, the person who tried to answer my questions was not technically educated and ended up with some babble that I should contact Lenovo about the issue.

I replied rephrasing the questions a bit more elaborate, asking them for clarification. Let's wait what they'll have to say this time.

#22 Post by **archer6** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm

Quagmyre wrote:Well, that's great news!
In the meantime, I received an email from Hitachi support. Apparently, the person who tried to answer my questions was not technically educated and ended up with some babble that I should contact Lenovo about the issue.

I replied rephrasing the questions a bit more elaborate, asking them for clarification. Let's wait what they'll have to say this time.

I also called Lenovo, just to see what they had to say, and like I expected there was the expected response that one must only use drives sold by them.....

The 7200rpm Hitachi I installed in my T42 years ago, which has what seems like a zillion hours on it, is running as good as day one. What makes this so significant is that it's been dropped not once but twice. Very rare for me, but that's why the call them accidents. And why I buy ThinkPads, as there is not a mark on it, nor any change in performance afterwards.

Quagmyre · #23 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:43 am

archer6 wrote:I also called Lenovo, just to see what they had to say, and like I expected there was the expected response that one must only use drives sold by them.....

That's exactly what we don't want to hear

We want the truth

Quagmyre · #24 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:22 am

OK people, so prepare for the ultimate answer I got from Hitachi.

First, some issues to clarify. In order for HDAPS to work properly,
that's what ThinkWiki has to say:

"HD-APS requires a hard-disk with head unload ramp technology and also support on the hard-disk firmware to unload heads without flushing the disk cache. This is required, because as soon as the APS system detects a shock is imminent, the system has less than 500ms to prepare for the shock."

Hitachi support told me:

"All Hitachi drives support Ramp Load/Unload Technology.
However, the feature "Unload Heads without flushing the drive cache" is dependent on the firmware and is only found in drives with original IBM/Lenovo firmware.
No retail drive has this feature."

So, I'd say that unless you somwhow manage to flash the original IBM firmware into your
retail drive, HDAPS is not operational.

Bummer

Quagmyre

DarkScythe · #25 Post by **DarkScythe** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:39 am

Thank you for the update, I'm surprised you managed to get that specific with them. Usually tech support doesn't know anything when you start asking anything "technical" (at least in my experience lol.)

Anyway, so it seems we need 3 things to fully enable HD-APS here.. The chip on the mobo, the HD with Ramp Load/Unload technology, AND the firmware to Unload heads without flushing drive cache.. All our Thinkpads should come with that sensor, and Hitachi says all their drives has the hardware, so we have 2/3.. just missing the firmware..

IBM does use one of the 200GB drives I think, only with some sort of encryption, so there's a firmware out for their version of the 7k200. As I said before, the model number listed looks like it could work.. So if you can flash the retail 7k200 200GB drive with that firmware, you might be able to enable HD-APS fully.

I'm pretty sure people have done this before, time to research on their success rates.

Quagmyre · #26 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:35 am

DarkScythe wrote:Thank you for the update, I'm surprised you managed to get that specific with them. Usually tech support doesn't know anything when you start asking anything "technical" (at least in my experience lol.)

Anyway, so it seems we need 3 things to fully enable HD-APS here.. The chip on the mobo, the HD with Ramp Load/Unload technology, AND the firmware to Unload heads without flushing drive cache.. All our Thinkpads should come with that sensor, and Hitachi says all their drives has the hardware, so we have 2/3.. just missing the firmware..

IBM does use one of the 200GB drives I think, only with some sort of encryption, so there's a firmware out for their version of the 7k200. As I said before, the model number listed looks like it could work.. So if you can flash the retail 7k200 200GB drive with that firmware, you might be able to enable HD-APS fully.

I'm pretty sure people have done this before, time to research on their success rates.

Absolutely correct. These are 2/3 of the requirements for HDAPS. Stinkin' Lenovo firmware would not flash right out of the box. I already tried that.
First superfical research came up with nothing. A lot of different drive models were flashed, but not the one I have. Let's see.

I'll keep you posted.

DarkScythe · #27 Post by **DarkScythe** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:41 am

Thanks - I'll be very interested in the results. Which model do you have by the way?

As far as the firmware goes, I believe there was a firmware hacking guide somewhere on this forum. Most people used it to get rid of the annoying non-IBM-hardware error, though I guess it would solve this problem too.

Edit:
I'm blind, you posted your model in the first post lol.

#28 Post by **archer6** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:45 am

Quagmyre wrote:OK people, so prepare for the ultimate answer I got from Hitachi.

First, some issues to clarify. In order for HDAPS to work properly,
that's what ThinkWiki has to say:

"HD-APS requires a hard-disk with head unload ramp technology and also support on the hard-disk firmware to unload heads without flushing the disk cache. This is required, because as soon as the APS system detects a shock is imminent, the system has less than 500ms to prepare for the shock."

Hitachi support told me:

"All Hitachi drives support Ramp Load/Unload Technology.
However, the feature "Unload Heads without flushing the drive cache" is dependent on the firmware and is only found in drives with original IBM/Lenovo firmware.
No retail drive has this feature."

So, I'd say that unless you somwhow manage to flash the original IBM firmware into your
retail drive, HDAPS is not operational.

Thanks for the update. This reinforces the experience that more than one of us has encountered, and that's the tendency to get told different things depending on who we are talking to.

DarkScythe wrote:Thank you for the update, I'm surprised you managed to get that specific with them. Usually tech support doesn't know anything when you start asking anything "technical" (at least in my experience lol.).

Again, just like I mentioned above and to expand on a bit, the challenge we all face today seems to be centered around what is in many cases the declining skill level of those manning the phones in the various tech support positions.

Thus it leaves us wondering who to believe and what's right. And in retrospect, hence the strength of having this wonderful forum to share our experiences as we try to sort out the truth and appropriate information which is beneficial to our particular goals.

Cheers!

Quagmyre · #29 Post by **Quagmyre** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:10 am

I downloaded the IBM disk firmware update iso and unpacked it.
What I found is that the following models are supported:

HTS722020K9SA00 FDE => my drive model, but I don't have FDE
HTS722016K9SA00 => 160GB version of my drive model

Hence, the exact model I have is not supported by the IBM/Lenovo firmware anyway.

I wonder if it's possible to flash one of these versions to the 200 GB non-FDE model?

#30 Post by **archer6** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:29 am

Quagmyre wrote:I downloaded the IBM disk firmware update iso and unpacked it.
What I found is that the following models are supported:

HTS722020K9SA00 FDE => my drive model, but I don't have FDE
HTS722016K9SA00 => 160GB version of my drive model

Hence, the exact model I have is not supported by the IBM/Lenovo firmware anyway.

I wonder if it's possible to flash one of these versions to the 200 GB non-FDE model?

That's a very good question that I wish I could answer with certainty, but cannot. However that said, the next few hours of my work day are mine, so I'm going to do some research. If I find out this is possible I will post back asap.

Cheers

Hitachi harddisk

Hitachi harddisk

Bummer :(

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