T41p overheating/getting old ???

[mwdnasa]

Hi!

I own a T41p for approx. 4 years now (drivers + BIOS, updated, SP3). Out of a sudden it seems to be overheating. I used to play one game which ran fine on the machine for years, but nowadays, this game crashes completely if I run it for more than 5 minutes (just keeping the game in the menue mode, without any inputs, crashes the machine - seems to be heating up). I tried different games to make sure it's not a software error – same result.
The machine crashes so bad that I get the blue screen or even nothing. When I reboot windows I get attached error message (see pic).

I downloaded TPFancontrol and NotebookHardwareControl and saw that the CPU temp goes up to 90 degrees. When I use the machine in office mode (browsing, email, word, etc..), the average CPU temperature is 58 degrees. My research shows that the max temp. for the PentiumM is 100 degrees, still, is 58 average too high?

When I manually crank up the fan revolutions to max I am able to play above game, still the CPU is running close to 90 degrees. Harddrive temp seems to be alright.

I opened up the laptop to check for clogged up heatsink and fan, but there is no dust inside the machine. I removed the heatsink, applied new thermal compound (on CPU + GPU), but the overheating still occurs. The air that comes out of the heatsink is very hot so the heatsink seems to work.

The taskmanager shows no abnormal CPU activity, the fan is working fine.
My last windows reinstall is not that long ago either.

I am really concerned now, could it be that some components on the motherboard have reached their lifetime?
Could some IRQ conflicts or other conflicts cause this behaviour? Especially IRQ 11 seems to be used by a couple of components (soundcard and network card).

At what temperature does your Pentium M idle???

Any help will be greatly appreciated

Thanks
Malte

ps wasn't able to attach the jpg, here the most important problem signatures:
BCCode: 100000d1 BCP1: 0000000C BCP2: 00000002 BCP3: 00000000 BCP4: F7921A89

[mwdnasa]

I just throttled the CPU back with NoteBookHardwareControl. I set it to Dynamic Switching and set the maximum Multiplier to 14 instead of 17. (Resulting in a 1.4GHz CPU instead of 1.7 GHz)
This had great influence on the CPU temperature and a program that would make the system easily crash is now running fine.

Maybe the CPU has had it ???


Thanks!

Malte

[Harryc]

Take the fan off of the CPU, blow it out with compressed air, reapply thermal compound, reinstall the fan.

[mwdnasa]

Thanks Harryc, but that's what I meant when I wrote: took heatsink off and replaced thermal compound.
The machine is dust-free.
The air that comes out of the heatsink side is quite hot, so the heatsink is working.

Could you please advice at what temperature your Pentium M idles?

I am runnig XP and my CPU temp hangs always just under 60 degrees when I am idling whith some programs open.

Running a software like Spybot brings up the CPU temp to almost 90 degrees!

Thanks

Malte

[sojourner]

mwdnasa, I think your TP is running way too hot. A few thoughts:

1) when you installed Notebook Hardware Control did you also install and set it up for ACPI features? If so you can look at numerous heat sensors to see exactly which one(s) is overheating and causing problems (eg, CPU or GPU or bad HDD or whatever). By viewing NHC's list you may see an overall overheating situation. Depending on what the temps are listed, that could lead you. For example, if just the GPU is overheating (but CPU is fine) I'd suspect bad heatsink contact. If CPU AND GPU are overheating, a different conclusion; an overheating HDD ... you get the idea.

2) are you sure the fan speeds are right? Full speed on your TP should be arround 3,950 rpm. Min speed around. 2950.

3) once things are corrected you may want to think about UNDERvolting as well. I use Dynamic switching and undervolting. Most of the time the fan does not come on and under intense CPU use the temp has never gone over 62c (in summer).

For reference, my TP is on right now, idle but full CPU (1.7gHz)
CPU=38c, GPU=47c, APS=47c, ambient (room temp)=21c; NHC is not running, TPfanControl (smart) is running, FAN=off.

Let us know what you find out!

[sktn77a]

Thanks Harryc, but that's what I meant when I wrote: took heatsink off and replaced thermal compound.
The machine is dust-free.
The air that comes out of the heatsink side is quite hot, so the heatsink is working.

Could you please advice at what temperature your Pentium M idles?

I am runnig XP and my CPU temp hangs always just under 60 degrees when I am idling whith some programs open.

Running a software like Spybot brings up the CPU temp to almost 90 degrees!

Thanks

Malte

Well, it sounds like you are pretty comfortable with hardware but it's very easy to overdo the thermal compound, which then acts as an insulator, rather than a conductor (the air coming out of the side will still be fairly warm). Are you positive you cleaned it well and got good contact with a very thin smear of thermal compound? What CPU are you using - you might consider at 1.6 Dothan vs your current Banias (I presume its stock).

Spybot SD will tax a T4x series pretty good - mine runs at 75-80 degrees with both spybot SD and Adaware running at the same time (CPU utilization constant 100%, but I have a 2.0GHz Dothan and the ATI7500), which I think is too high. 90 degrees is WAY too high!

[FTC]

Hi,


If you are sayng that after 4 years working you opened up the machine and there was no dust in the heatsink, my suggestion is clearly to open it up once more and look again.... did you miss the radiator fins ? All machines do gather a lot of dust after 4 years... unless you work in a surgery room .

Your problem as you identified is clearly CPU heat related and failing that 'dust' thing it can only be a wrongly installed/moved heatsink. CPUs do not get hotter as they grow older... its just normally that the heatsink moves a bit or the thermal paste loses its characteristis ... hardens.

Regarding idle temps, note that idle temp for these CPUs can vary from 50 to 65 C or even a bit more. It all depends on the exact model how well you have configured your power saving features.
Re. Load temps, I have always been able to set CPU load temps lower than 80C on a properly configured and mantained system. (T40 / T41 / T42). GPU temps can be a bit higher though.

[mwdnasa]

First of all: thanks a lot for all your input!

-The machine got cleaned of dust regularly over the years, it is clean!

-When the crashes started to occur, I checked for dust, then removed heatsink/fan assembly, and reapplied a very thin thermal compound layer on GPU and CPU. Actually one of our guys at the electronics workshop did it while I was watching. I am pretty positive that we have got a good contact. Basically the machine overheated with the old compound and now with the new one, so chances are it's not insufficient thermal contact to the heatsink.

-NBHC says that HD temps are good (30 degrees-40 degrees), the GPU temp can go up to 60, but it is a bit hard to tell...since ALT-Tabbing takes some time in which the components cool down. I haven't found a prgramm yet that can log CPU/GPU temps over time..any suggestions??

-the fan speed seems good, a good amount of air comes out, max settings brings it up to ~4200 revs (TPFancontrol)

-Most concerning: this temp problem came quite suddenly, the machine got tortured with games and video editing for years! and out of the sudden it overheats, but I haven't changed any habbits/software

-I have started to look for replacement CPUs, however if you guys say that CPUs shouldn't age...maybe there is no point

- what would be your CPU suggestions? I am looking at the 2Ghz Dothan, however they seem to be over 100 US dollars, what's one step down from there???
I am running the stock 1.7GHz Banias


At the moment I run the machine with NBHC set to Dynamic Switching with a maximum multiplier of 14 (~1.5GHz), this limits the CPU temp to around 60-70 degrees under load and it idles atm at 45 degrees.

So your GPU temps go sometimes higher than the CPU temps??

Thanks and cheers!

Malte

[mwdnasa]

So I guess the 1.6 Dothan is one step down from the quite expensive 2Ghz Dothan, right?
This should be an upgrade in any case to my 1.7 Banias, correct?

These don't seem to be that expensive anyway, I might get one of these just for the fun of it. I just have to make sure that it is A or B stepping, to be on the safe side, right?

Malte

[mwdnasa]

ahh, found the monitoring option in NBHC, interesting!

[mwdnasa]

ystem ??

This is what NBHC says although ACPI Control System is enabled (ticked), I can't bring up the ACPI Control System details either.

Should I resolve this and how?

Thanks

Malte

[fasterbybike]

So I guess the 1.6 Dothan is one step down from the quite expensive 2Ghz Dothan, right?
This should be an upgrade in any case to my 1.7 Banias, correct?
<snip>
I just have to make sure that it is A or B stepping, to be on the safe side, right?

Malte

A or B stepping should be supported with the newest BIOS.
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-50273

Any Dothan will be an improvement on Banias: 2MB of L2 cache (vs 1MB), 90nm technology means less heat (21W vs 24.5W). The 2.0 will be much faster than the 1.6, but other system bottlenecks may cause delays depending on the tasks you run. E.g. HDD I/O, graphics.

HTH

D

edited for CPU TDP data.

[mwdnasa]

thanks to some files that someone emailed me, I have got ACPI up and running now.

Furthermore I did some tests with the CPU Voltage Control of NHC which are quite interesting:

-all tests done with fan running at max (4281rpms).
-I changed multipliers/voltages and did the CPU stability check to see where the CPU temp would stabilize after 15 mins:

Voltage reduced:
Multiplier 17 Voltage 1.308: CPU:74 GPU 59

Voltage default:
Multiplier 17 Voltage 1.484: CPU temperature reached 88 within 3 minutes, then climbed slowly up to 92 degrees (another 4minutes) then the machine crashed, blue screen saying:

DRIVER-IRQL-NOT-LESS-OR-EQUAL ....blahblah....Stop: 0x0000...etc.. gv3.sys

well prob. not much use anyway


So by reducing the voltage one step it seems I can significantly reduce heat build up without losing performance. Might have to run the stability tests over night.

Still the question is why this is suddenly the case. I might open the machine one more time and tighten the screws that press down the heatsink onto the CPU...however I don't think this is the problem.

Thanks

Malte

[mwdnasa]

Alright guys, you were right and I was wrong...

I opened up the machine to have another look and tightened the three screws that hold down the heatsink. they were tight already, but this time I used "I hope this won't break anything" -torque...well, after booting up I ran 15 minutes worth of NBHC Voltage -Stability Test with a Mulitplier of 17 and maximum voltage (1.484), for 15 minutes...a new record, the CPU temperature stabilized at a 'mild' 80 degrees! The machine used to be at 92 degrees within 5 minutes so something is different!

Thanks for your help and advice, it looks like that was it. Still I will explore running the CPU at lower voltage.

Through this little problem I learned a lot! For example that something like NBHC exists and that the Dothan is out there...


As a reward for all who have kept reading this thread a funny story:

I used to clean my T41 with pressured air in our mechanical workshop to great success (not that canned stuff but the real deal coming from some big compressor). When I did it the first time ever, a cloud of dust came out of the heatsink with this nice vaccum cleaner - dust smell.
When I did it last time (because my machine started to overheat and crash, as stated above), I blew into the heatsink, the fan spun up and then an unhealthy "crack" was to be heard. Quite shocked I opened up the laptop to find that the fan lost ALL it's blades! I accidently exceeded the safe rpms of the fan...luckily I was able to grab a fan from a broken TP of a colleague of mine. Well, lesson learnt, I stick to the canned stuff now...or a brush!
needless to say that I felt quite stupid.

ps: Another method according to my electronics workshop is to block the fan with a little scewer or toothpick before blowing air in there...to prevent it from spinning up

while I am typing this the CPU is set to maximum performance and voltage and idles at 50 degrees...sounds normal for a Banias

[sojourner]

mwdnasa, glad to hear of your success. There is still one thing which bothers me however, it's a question you've asked, that is; why did this temp thing happen all of a sudden! Being SP3 came out only some weeks ago, have you considered whether that plays a part? (BTW, I upgraded too and no problems here)

Well, I cannot answer that but obviously from your temp readings the issue is with the CPU / heatsink. Some comments on that:

When I take those components apart they are always cleaned REAL well (soft cloth and rubbing alcohol). But I also take a very, very, VERY fine FLAT stone and gently rub the bottom of the heatsink to make sure any imperfections on the surface, which would keep it from fitting perfectly flat in the heat sink/CPU contact area, are eliminated. Make SURE the heat sink/CPU contact area is perfectly flat, not warped or scratched with protruding metal! (I remember in the 'old days' we would LAP the heatsink to insure flatness, and it made a difference)

Then it's cleaned again, assembled using latest Artic Silver thermal compound and heat sink screws NOT tightened but instead SNUGGED, here's why: you'll notice the screw goes into a spring loaded brass plunger. I've surmised these are designed that way to insure an even torque when 'tightening' the heatsink to mobo. There is a thread here somewhere where I discussed this with more length. Of course the whole idea with these procedures is to INSURE a VERY good (and even) contact of the CPU to heatsink, thus MAXIMUM cooling potential. And if you have to really CRANK the HS screws to get best cooling something somewhere is wrong (likely bad contact HS to CPU from something between them or a warped HS). I've noticed reading comments on CPU idle temps mine are usually the lowest (and I have multiple TP's and they are the same). FWIW!

Regarding ACPI, glad you have that fully working! Isn't it amazing what the author of NHC did with his program?

You queried about voltage settings; here are mine albeit remember these are for a 1.7 Dothan

6 .716
8 .780
10 .828
12 .876
14 .940
17 1.132

Others have posted their settings, mine are higher than some and lower than some <g> so your settings may vary too! Of course the idea is to get them as low as possible without freezing under full load then bump it UP one just as a safety cushion. This will give least heat and still provide max performance.

Lastly, some of the guys have already mentioned upgrading to Dothan and I concur, Dothan is a definite improvement over Banias

All the best!

[agarza]

So you're saying that we should not tighten the heatsink screws that much, where that thread you're referring to. I'd like to maximize heat transfer efficiency

[sojourner]

So you're saying that we should not tighten the heatsink screws that much, where that thread you're referring to.

There is more in this link. (last post I think)

I'd like to maximize heat transfer efficiency

Be sure your HS (heat sink) in the CPU area is FLAT, has no scratches, and is clean as stated in my previous post. Also make sure Artic Silver is applied as instructed on the package (ie, you want a very thin layer, too much thermal compound can decrease heat transfer efficiency). Then follow tightening instructions. Of course one always wants to make sure all dusk and crud is blown out of laptop and all air vents have good ventilation.

All the best!

[seaweedsl]

I just wanted to add that I am having the same problem with my R50p.

I commented on it a bit more here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 267#465267

Steve