T20 not booting...time for new motherboard?

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bretski · #1 Post by **bretski** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:13 pm

My trusty 'ole T20 has given up the ghost, and I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.

Model number is 2647-84U

Symptoms are as follows:

About a year or so ago, I started having lock-up issues when the machine was on battery power or on battery power with the brick connected. Removing all batteries and running off AC was the only way to keep it running.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=47010

I ended up getting a new power brick, but that wasn't the root of the problem. Never managed to track anything down with testing software, and just learned to live with running it on AC power only.

About a week ago, the machine spontaneously shut down on me. Power light remained on, but screen went black. Tried to do a hard reboot, the machine wouldn't POST. Just gave a long beep and 2 short beeps. I looked this beep code up, and it suggests memory errors, lcd, or mobo as the problem.

After letting it sit for a day, it powered-up and worked OK. The next day, had the same problem, only no beeps at all after trying a hard reboot. Wouldn't restart. Now, when I press the power button, I can hear the DVD drive attempt to spin-up, but it sounds like it's not getting enough juice. Pulling the DVD will get it to POST, and attempt to boot, but it'll shut down again within 40 seconds or so. I'm confident that the RAM is good. It's good qual Crucial (have tried both of the sticks independently and together).

I suspect the mobo at this point, as I've tried another power brick. Is there anything else I can try to revive it, or should I be looking for a new motherboard? If that's the case, should I be looking on ebay, or is there a better source?

Thanks for any help/advice!

bretski · #2 Post by **bretski** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:14 pm

Did some more searching...are my symptoms indicative of the dreaded BOD?

I just went into the BIOS and disabled speed-step. It's *trying* to boot right now. After thinking about it some more, I remember seeing problems with the Win2k speed-step software not working properly. I disabled the software a while back, as it constantly thought it was in battery-only mode, regardless of whether or not the machine was on AC.

As I type, it's finished booting up. Will continue to keep an eye on it for a while. Still open to suggestions if anyone has them, though...

Arrgh! The LCD shut down on me again while typing. Still powered on, and fan is running, though

#3 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:38 pm

Time to reseat the LCD cable, maybe even replace it.
You may also try and resolder the inductors, one of them might be loose.

bretski · #4 Post by **bretski** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:20 pm

Thanks for the reply, RealBlackStuff. So, you don't think my symptoms are indicative of the blink of death?

I'll download the hardware maintenance manual (can't find my copy), and try the LCD cable reseat. I haven't torn down the machine in years, but I think you have to remove quite a few components to get to the cable...

#5 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:03 pm

Just 2 screws to remove the keyboard.
Then you can already reseat that LCD-cable.

bretski · #6 Post by **bretski** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:24 pm

Ok, just finished reseating the LCD cable. I assume it was the one right underneath the indicator lights, correct?

From the profile view, it looked like it might have been *slightly* loose on the left-hand side. The machine is booted-up right now, and I temped fate by picking it up and moving it a little. Also pivoted the LCD back and forth. So far, so good.

Thanks for the suggestion, RealBlackStuff!

I do have a possibly stupid question to ask now: I noticed that there is a newer BIOS rev available (1.22). I'm at 1.20. The readme indicates that it addresses "Enhancement of the battery control". I'm thinking that this could possibly help with my AC/battery hanging problem. My dilemma is that I can't put a battery in the system without it locking up. The readme indicates that I need to have a charged battery installed to run the BIOS/embedded controller update. Can I get away with doing it on AC only, or would this be a bad idea to try?

#7 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:18 am

Do you have an original IBM battery or a knock-off?
If the latter, try a 'real' IBM battery.
If you need to buy one, get a battery for the T30, they have a larger capacity and fit also in the T2x series.

You can't update BIOS or ECP without both AC and a battery.
The programs check and exit, if one of them is missing.

bretski · #8 Post by **bretski** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:05 am

My batteries are all "real" IBM models. Maybe I'll try it via diskette, as I suspect the hanging issue is at least partially OS-related.

Edit: Well, that was a bad idea. The machine froze-up while running the BIOS updater. By some miracle, it didn't brick. *whew* Guess I'll leave well enough alone when it comes to the BIOS.

bretski · #9 Post by **bretski** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:35 pm

It worked OK for a couple of days, but is now back to the same symptoms. Any other suggestions, or am I S.O.L.?

bretski · #10 Post by **bretski** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:38 am

Still having problems with the machine shutting down. I've opened it up a couple of times, and the left side of the LCD cable seems to be separating *ever* so slightly. Is there something I can use to help keep it seated?

madkat · #11 Post by **madkat** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:27 am

maybe you can try and put some cardboard (several layers until they do the trick) between the back of the keyboard and the connector (on the T30 the layout makes this possible - i hope on the T2x is the same)

spydergt · #12 Post by **spydergt** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:41 pm

but from what reasearch ive done ive found that theres a claim that its the inverter or lcd , and this can be checked , you can plug the thinkpad into an external monitor and let it boot and see if it does the same thing , i have just done my research tonight , my thinkpads at home and after work im planning on testing these items to see if that is it ,

the inverter is the part the cable that you say is a lil loose , you can get one cheap off ebay , ive already priced them at around 15 dollars us buy it now , with shipping , and if thats not it then it needs a new lcd for the back lighting might have gone out , and ive priced an lcd replacement for under 100$ us . but i have yet to go home and test this on mine to see if that is it ,

please let me know and ill let you know tommorow after i get to get home and play with mine ,

i have the same problem ,

hit the power button , get into windows , if i do nothing just leave it be its fine , but soon as i start to mess around , blink off goes the screen , yet the hdd and lights are on on the bezel , then after a few seconds of no monitor , the entire thinkpad just turns off , completly ,

bretski · #13 Post by **bretski** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:30 pm

madkat: That seems like it might work...something non-conductive to act as a "shim".

spydergt: I was gone out of town for a couple of days, and didn't have a chance to check the forum. After work tonight, I'll try connecting the T20 to an external monitor to see if that makes any difference at all. It's certainly worth a try.

bretski · #14 Post by **bretski** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:22 pm

I tried the external monitor, and it ran fine for a few hours. I had to leave for a while, and it was shut-down when I got back. At this point, I'm almost ready to give up. Maybe I'll try to get a new LCD cable, but I hate the thought of throwing good money after bad.

SMA · #15 Post by **SMA** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:11 am

Apologizes for not chiming in earlier. I was not aware that this is in fact a continuation of a thread in which I have
given a suggestion.

It was I who suggested you to try another AC Adapter but I forgot to give you the odds. Sorry.
The idea was to try the easiest things first. I did not expect that you would buy one. Hopefully you have found some use for that extra AC Adapter.
Many people do find it convenient to have 2 of those - it eliminates the need for transporting the AC Adapter in cases where a ThinkPad travels
regularly between 2 fixed locations - typically home and office.

In my opinion your T20 may have 2 problems now.
The possibly two problems I see now are a temperature problem and the LCD cable starting to break giving a backlight problem.

If the temperature problem will allow you to do so, then it might be possible to provoke the LCD problem to occur by changing the angel
of the screen. If you can get to the state where the LCD problem is present, you can verify that it is a backlight issue by shining a lamp
on the LCD panel. If there is a very faint screen image visible, then you have a backlight problem. A backlight problem on a T20 will most likely
be caused by the cable starting to break. On both of my two T20's the LCD cable is broken and repaired like described in the last post in this topic.

The indication of a LCD problem is not a strong one. It may turn out to be false.
I would say, that for now just isolate the LCD problem, by doing any further testing using an external monitor and concentrate
on the original problem, which by now - I believe - should be considered a temperature problem.

I am not that much into the thermal issues, but I think that applying some fresh thermal paste on the CPU might help.
Others might know better and you can try searching the forum.

To me, this machine does not have the BoD problem and it does not make sense to try a bios update.

bretski · #16 Post by **bretski** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am

Thank you for the input, SMA. Inre the power supply issue from the previous thread: No big deal...I don't mind having an extra.

I don't believe that it's a backlight issue. The laptop doesn't show symptoms of that. I am fairly certain that it's a problem on the system board. Heat may very well be the culprit. The fan works fine, but the cpu may be overheating.

When I have a chance, I'll remove the cpu/fan assembly, clean it up, and try some new thermal paste. I will update as the fun progresses.

bretski · #17 Post by **bretski** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:07 pm

I finally had a little time to do this over the weekend. I removed the fan. The original thermal pad was intact...made of a weird rubbery compound...I've never seen one like that before. The pad lifted right off with no residue. I cleaned the cpu and fan with alcohol, and applied some fresh thermal compound (Arctic alumina).

After putting everything back together, I started it up. It shut down even faster than before.

I'm rapidly reaching the end of my rope on this problem...

vlyne · #18 Post by **vlyne** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:40 am

Congratulations, you’re now the not-so-proud owner of a T2*-Z series (Z for Zombie) laptop. It will provide you with endless hours of pain and displeasure, and momentary periods of misplaced celebration and happiness! Your family and friends will wonder what on earth has possessed you, and turned you into this zealot who brings out this laptop from under the table and prods it every so often. Is that a smile or a grin they wonder?? Nah, it’s a no-goer this time – better luck next time! Back you go under the table in your box. Try again in a couple of days, or…weeks, praying all along that someone on the Thinkpads forum will surely come up with the magic cure!

The best advice has already been given: replace the motherboard - but not with a T20/21/22 but with a T23 (most of the time the inductors are the problem with this model and we know how to fix it!. The rest of the time one of the devices gives up the “magic smoke” but at least you know it’s dead!) and reuse as much as you can and live much more happily ever after. And, you can keep that zombie motherboard in its coffin under the table – you know…, just in case someone does find a cure…

Ok, if you insist on testing your patience, the first thing is to put back that sponge rubber onto the CPU because the gap is otherwise too wide for the artic silver/thermal paste to bridge (the gap). Or else, get a T22 fan instead which will allow you to use the thermal paste instead of the sponge.

It sounds like you have a power supply or power drain problem so take off as much as you can to get the thing going reliably. Best also to have a power wattage monitor handy so you know how much power is being pumped in. What I would do:

Reduce the memory down to a single good stick of low memory (128MB) (are you absolutely sure the memory is good?).
Vaccum and blowoff all the gunge in and around the various ports (best to take off the motherboard to do this).
Reseat the mainboard connector to the backend power/accessory board.
Disconnect the LCD and run off an external monitor (but check the LCD cable connector to make sure it is clean and not cracked).
Disconnect the DVD/CD-Rom and all other removable devices (LAN/modem card) - check connectors while you're at it.
Run off a docking station if you can so you can remove the keyboard
Reseat the CPU.
Remove the battery
Are you sure the adapter is good?
While you're at it clean off the memory connectors and memory chips (eraser) and the battery connector. Check the main power input plug as well for looseness/cleanliness.

Take off the harddisk and check to see that you can power on reliably. If no go, take off memory and see if you get the beeps. Still no go then there is a problem with the motherboard. Otherwise, gradually add back the devices and see which one is the culprit. It may well be that the mainboard can't supply the required power when devices are added back in - in which case, you are rapidly reaching the mainboard replacement option. Items I would check are:

The thermal? fuse (F2) between and north of the CPU and LCD connector (transparent fuse). I don't know how the resistance changes with temperature/current, but if there is a shutdown/freeze, check to see whether it is open/closed.

The only other replacable device is the CPU, but only as a last resort.

If you want to go further, learn how to check capacitors and diodes, pour yourself a very large cup of coffee or other suitable beverage and go to it (try the larger SMD caps first for shorting/open-circuit). I doubt the problem lies here - most likely a power regulator device that is temperature/current dependent.

Best of luck!! Cheers.

bretski · #19 Post by **bretski** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:52 pm

I think I had a problem in this thread somewhere...

Anyway, thanks for the post, vlyne. I will take your advice and start looking for a T23 board. Insofar as the sponge pad is concerned, I figured that part out. It was pretty clear to me that the quick shut-down was a cpu heat issue. I put the original pad back the other day.

So, now that a new system board seems to be the best course of action, anybody got a good one they want to sell?

Moderator note: db1's discussion of his T21 power problem has been split out into a separate thread:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=65586

#20 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:11 pm

A T23 motherboard will not fit perfectly inside a T20-T22 base. You would have problems with the USB port(s) (T20-T22 has one, T23 motherboard has two), the MiniPCI bay (T20-T22 base is only large enough for the MiniPCI card; the T23 motherboard also has the ethernet daughter card in an enlarged bay).

You might be able to replace the entire base with one from a T23 and transfer over the T20's LCD/lid assembly but there may be some very slight differences in the fit to the base. You probably should select a T23 that does not have the built-in wireless as those lids have a different bezel than the non-wireless versions. I've never tried to perform this type of swap; hopefully somebody else will confirm or deny this possibility.

bretski · #21 Post by **bretski** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:52 pm

Hmmmmm, that sounds like more trouble than this machine is really worth at this point. It saddens me, as I've had this T20 for nearly 8 years.

Ray, or anyone else who might know: am I asking for trouble buying a used T20-T22 system board? All these threads about the BOD kinda make me think I'd just end up acquiring someone else's problem...

Should I just cut my loses and part this machine out? The LCD is in excellent shape, the keyboard has minimal shine for the amount of use it has seen, and I have a ton of accesories (ultra-bay floppy, DVD-ROM/CD-RW, and battery; extra PS, 2X256 RAM sticks, docking port). Heck, I even have a barely used, genuine Thinkpad laptop briefcase in a box somewhere.

#22 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:54 pm

I have a couple of T2x/A2x BoD systems but then again, I bought them for the SXGA+ or UXGA screens

. I can't say what the odds are for you to get a perfectly working system today and then have it develop the BoD later on.

With the accessories that you list, you might consider a slight upgrade to a T23 (memory is the only thing which cannot be used unless they are PC133 sticks). I'd say that the T23 would be at least 50% faster (1.13Ghz or 1.2Ghz) and the maximum memory size would increase to 1024MB. The one problem is that 512MB PC133 modules still command a fairly high price (~$25 to $30 per stick on eBay if you are lucky). You could still use your T20 keyboard, Ultrabay devices and docking port with the T23. If you can find a good T23 that has a busted screen, then all you need to do is swap the panels and maybe the ribbon cable. I've taken an SXGA+ screen out of a T21 and put it inside a T23 lid assembly (which already had the proper ribbon cable for the SXGA+ LCD). Seven screws and less than 30 minutes of time is all that was needed. I would assume that the same could be done with a T20 (XGA-to-XGA).

Of course you could simply dump all of this "obsolete" equipment and go for the latest quad-core system

.

bretski · #23 Post by **bretski** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:16 pm

rkawakami wrote:I have a couple of T2x/A2x BoD systems but then again, I bought them for the SXGA+ or UXGA screens . I can't say what the odds are for you to get a perfectly working system today and then have it develop the BoD later on.

With the accessories that you list, you might consider a slight upgrade to a T23 (memory is the only thing which cannot be used unless they are PC133 sticks). I'd say that the T23 would be at least 50% faster (1.13Ghz or 1.2Ghz) and the maximum memory size would increase to 1024MB. The one problem is that 512MB PC133 modules still command a fairly high price (~$25 to $30 per stick on eBay if you are lucky). You could still use your T20 keyboard, Ultrabay devices and docking port with the T23. If you can find a good T23 that has a busted screen, then all you need to do is swap the panels and maybe the ribbon cable. I've taken an SXGA+ screen out of a T21 and put it inside a T23 lid assembly (which already had the proper ribbon cable for the SXGA+ LCD). Seven screws and less than 30 minutes of time is all that was needed. I would assume that the same could be done with a T20 (XGA-to-XGA).

I like that idea...a lot. I couldn't reuse the RAM sticks, as mine are PC100, but if everything else would work...

Guess I'll start looking for a T23.

rkawakami wrote:Of course you could simply dump all of this "obsolete" equipment and go for the latest quad-core system .

Where's the fun in that?!

Robbyrobot · #24 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:51 pm

bretski wrote:I finally had a little time to do this over the weekend. I removed the fan. The original thermal pad was intact...made of a weird rubbery compound...I've never seen one like that before. The pad lifted right off with no residue. I cleaned the cpu and fan with alcohol, and applied some fresh thermal compound (Arctic alumina).

After putting everything back together, I started it up. It shut down even faster than before. I'm rapidly reaching the end of my rope on this problem...

After reading through this thread, I tend to agree with the people who suspect an overheating problem.

Now, the first question I'd ask is what CPU you have. Has it been "upgraded" at any point, and if so, is the fan still the original T20 fan? If you answer "yes" to both questions, I think I'd try replacing the fan with one from a T22 to improve cooling.

Also, the pad you refer to is just a foam with silicone oil in the closed cells and is used for heat transfer. It ages and can leak the oil over time, reducing the cooling effect. You also don't make clear whether you replaced the pad and applied thermal paste (to both sides?), or whether you removed the pad and just used the thermal paste.

I personally would remove the pad and use a good thermal paste instead (people say "Arctic Silver" is good, but I've used various kinds and don't see much difference), making sure that there is good contact between the heat sink and the CPU.

Except for the possible fan replacement, all this is trivial and might possibly help. I'd certainly be pleased if it did.

bretski · #25 Post by **bretski** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:36 pm

Robbyrobot wrote:Now, the first question I'd ask is what CPU you have. Has it been "upgraded" at any point, and if so, is the fan still the original T20 fan? If you answer "yes" to both questions, I think I'd try replacing the fan with one from a T22 to improve cooling.

The CPU is the original PIII-700. The fan is also original.

Robbyrobot wrote:Also, the pad you refer to is just a foam with silicone oil in the closed cells and is used for heat transfer. It ages and can leak the oil over time, reducing the cooling effect. You also don't make clear whether you replaced the pad and applied thermal paste (to both sides?), or whether you removed the pad and just used the thermal paste.

I personally would remove the pad and use a good thermal paste instead (people say "Arctic Silver" is good, but I've used various kinds and don't see much difference), making sure that there is good contact between the heat sink and the CPU.

Except for the possible fan replacement, all this is trivial and might possibly help. I'd certainly be pleased if it did.

I removed the pad completely, and applied a layer of Arctic Alumina (what I happened to have on-hand). This was done after cleaning the CPU core and the fan. Another post (from vlyne) indicated that there's too much of a gap between the CPU and the fan to leave out the foam pad. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Robbyrobot · #26 Post by **Robbyrobot** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:30 am

Another post (from vlyne) indicated that there's too much of a gap between the CPU and the fan to leave out the foam pad. Are you suggesting otherwise?

I'd have to look at the heatsink and the CPU die to know for sure, but I believe the fan/heatsink is pressed down on the CPU die with springs and thus can't be really separated.

If you have a 700MHz CPU, though, that pretty well eliminates my suspicion that you have an overheating problem. Too bad... I had hoped for a simpler solution.

madkat · #27 Post by **madkat** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:39 am

so - how large is the gap? - if it was something thicker than a normal pad used (that silicone sponge thing - like for the inductors in the T30) you cannot compensate with thermal paste...
you should make a spacer out of copper sheet (maybe from a spare heatsink) and aply thermal paste between the cpu/ layer(s) of copper/heatsink

#28 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:14 am

I just opened up a T20 (base only) that I have sitting here.
You must (apparently) use a thermal pad, as the cooler is not spring-loaded as in the T23. There's quite a gap between cooler/CpU if you would leave this pad out.
My T20 also has thermal paste between CPU and pad. It has a 750MHz CPU (SL44T).
Looking at a T21 fan, that IS spring-loaded, but still needs a thermal pad.
Only the (also spring-loaded) T22 does not need a pad., it 'sits' directly on top of the CPU.

If interested, I can send you the whole T20 bottom with I/O board (minus yellow AC-connector), (untested) motherboard, CPU and T20 cooler (with pad) for $15.- shipped to CONUS.

bretski · #29 Post by **bretski** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:55 am

I'll take you up on that offer...PM sent.

bretski · #30 Post by **bretski** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:49 pm

Update:

I got a T20 base (thank you to RealBlackStuff) and planned to swap out the boards. In the meantime, I also found a new T22 heatsink/fan for cheap. So I decided to try the fan first.

This heatsink appears to make good contact with the cpu core. Mobmeter shows the cpu temp at about 46-53*C, depending on load. So far, the machine hasn't crapped out on me.

I'm really, really hoping this will solve the random shutdowns...thanks again for everyone's help!!!

T20 not booting...time for new motherboard?

T20 not booting...time for new motherboard?

i have the same problem

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