T60 freezups

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RaviN · #31 Post by **RaviN** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:17 pm

Kaz,

I am running tests with and without Powerplay enabled since the most recent return from the depot. Before I sent it back, I tried disabling it and it actually forced crashes a few times (but not all).

Before the most recent depot service, I had crashes watching:
1) Embedded flash videos in websites
2) Veoh TV Beta player
3) Windows Media Player from the desktop
4) Winamp v.5

I have noticed over the last couple of days that disabling Powerplay now has _not_ caused any immediate crashes as it did before. I have not yet reenabled hotkeys as I still see occasional freezups. It is taking longer between the freezups so perhaps something has improved.

The last freezup came when I tried to shutdown Veoh Player. Since this is not crucial, I removed it and am now trying to see if the other programs cause any problems.

Another potential improvement - before the recent fix, the system would occasionally hang when I removed ac power. That has not reoccurred over the past week.

Kaz · #32 Post by **Kaz** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:28 pm

Ravi, were you ever successful in determining what repairs, if any, were performed on your laptop? And what version of the ATI Radeon driver and CCC are you running?

According to the Lenovo website, the last ATI driver from 1/31/08 is targeted at repairing:

Version 8.442.3-080103a1-057754C-Lenovo

* (Fix) The display driver excessively accesses Windows registry.
* (Fix) The extended desktop scheme for two external displays may not be applied through the Presentation Director.

Technically, I do not know the ramifications of excessively accessing a registry. Perhaps one of the users can comment on this?

Best of luck.

Grimmeh · #33 Post by **Grimmeh** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:02 pm

Time for me to chime in with my experiences. I'll use Kaz's layout. (Thanks, Kaz, for all of the detail!)

Kaz wrote: 1. Issue has only occurred when watching streaming videos from the internet using Windows Medial Players 10 or 11. Have not attempting to use other video players. As stated above, never have I attempting to watch a DVD to determine if an issue exists there as well.

This happens to me, too, but also with SD and HD videos played outside of the internet.

Kaz wrote: 2. 945 chipset is version 8.2.0.1008, 9/13/2006 from Intel

I had this chipset and I had crashes with it, as well. I was advised to roll back my drivers and I did, to version 7.1.0.1015, 12/27/2005 from Intel. The crashes still happen.

Kaz wrote: 3. Freeze happens whether IE and Windows Media Player are open alone or when also running Outlook, Firefox 2.x in conjunction

I have had crashes with Firefox open and after closing Firefox, as well. I haven't pinpointed whether a RAM-intensive program needs to have been opened before this crash happens, but crashes happen regardless of if I use 1 DIMM or two.

Kaz wrote: 4. Have tried rolling back Lenovo provided ATI driver for X1400 without success. Currently back to using latest driver 8.442.3.0, 1/3/2008.

Same here.

Kaz wrote: 5. In ATI Catalyst Control Center - PowerPlay, tried setting 'Plugged in' to 'Optimal performance' without success.

Haven't tried this, but I'll try disabling Powerplay later tonight again.

Kaz wrote: 6. Tried disabling Hotkeys without success.

Never tried this, but I can't see how it relates to our problem.

Kaz wrote: 7. Today, repeated freeze issues easily after playing some streaming WMV videos from the Internet. Issue results in solid black screen and and only Numlock and LED light will work from keyboard. Result is to manually power off and reboot.

Yep, exactly what happens with me. My WIFI light stays on, too.

Kaz wrote: 8. Before freeze, used TPFanControl (only used in BIOS mode for monitoring, not smart mode) and CPU temp runs around 53C and GPU at 63C after playing multiple streaming videos.

I've tried to narrow down the problem to temperature, as well, and it doesn't seem like it is directly related, unless there is some kind of miscommunication between the Intel chipset driver and our video cards, which causes the temperature to instantly spike and the laptop to shut down.

Kaz wrote: 9. Have tried many different BIOS versions without success. Currently running latest version, 1.14, 4/16/2008.

Same here.

Kaz wrote: 10. Have never attempting to try other ATI Mobility Radeon drivers other than those available from the Lenovo website

Same.

Kaz wrote: 11. Cannot recall whether issue also occurs in battery mode as I primarily use the laptop in AC mode.

I can't recall either. Will test this today and share if running on battery changes anything.

Kaz wrote: 12. Issues exists whether running Windows XP SP2 or SP3 - currently on SP3

Same here on both fronts.

Kaz wrote: 13. I do not have an external keyboard, mouse, or monitor. Essentially, I am using my T60 standalone and primarily use the mouse pad.

The issue happens to me wether I have just the laptop screen or an external plugged in as well.

Kaz wrote: 14. Tried installing many of the MS knowledge base updates promoted by others without success.

I haven't tried any of there.

Hopefully our further research on this problem gets us somewhere or helps Lenovo diagnose this problem.

JurieDP · #34 Post by **JurieDP** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:39 am

I have found this. If a T60 hangs on battery, its will most likely be the HAL version on the machine. Make sure it’s a multiple processor HAL.

jimmy274 · #35 Post by **jimmy274** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:41 pm

Well, I've noticed that PowerPlay setting tends to get back at Optimal Battery Life on it's own. Everytime my T60 locks up, I enter CCC and l' voila - the PowerPlay has returned to Optimal Battery Life, even though I set it to Optimal Performance. I haven't experienced a lock-up nearly 2 months now.
I also noticed that ffdshow tends to lock up more frequently than regular codecs (with PowerPlay at Optimal Battery Life). I've been using Media Player Classic, BS Player and Windows Media Player - all lock up no matter if it's streaming in WMP or regular video using all of the above. For me, there's no doubt that this has something to do with PowerPlay and Video decompression in ATi chips, because everything else has never locked up my T60 (playing Civ4 for several hours (I've had even 11-12 hours of playing! Sicko, I know), browsing net, etc). All happening prior to setting PowerPlay at Optimal Performance.
As I said, I don't experience any lock ups right now, and for the past 2 months. Sometimes PowerPlay resets itself, and I know that by screen flickering when I run a DivX or XviD video - I just turn it back to Optimal Performance and it works - no lock ups whatsoever.
This is my experience only, I saw that other people have even bigger problems, but please - have in mind that PowerPlay resets on it's own! I thought that this doesn't resolve my situation too, but I was wrong - my laptop only locks up when PowerPlay is set to Optimal Battery Life!

Kaz · #36 Post by **Kaz** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:17 pm

Jimmy274,

Had same issue with PowerPlay auto resets exactly as you described. I cannot recall when setting would actually change on its own (e.g, switching from AC to battery mode, after freezes, etc.). Applied following fix (see URL below) to resolve issue. FYI, I am using ThinkPad Power Manager 1.40 and ThinkPad PM device driver 1.44.

As stated in previous posting, currently running with PowerPlay disabled in order to troubleshoot Black Screen of Death issue. I notice that when I stream videos now, I no longer see the flickers noticeable when using PowerPlay. Note that flicker occurred only at beginning of video play.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 6abbe84224

RaviN · #37 Post by **RaviN** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:41 pm

PowerPlay autoresets on me, as well. I am checking it periodically to ensure it stays off.

And, as I type this, I checked... it is back on. I unchecked it, clicked apply, and there is a lot of color bleed on the screen. A lockup usually follows.

Kaz · #38 Post by **Kaz** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:51 pm

Ravi,

Review the link I published and recommend applying the fixes, if applicable to you, when you have completed your other testing.

Good luck.

RaviN · #39 Post by **RaviN** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:21 pm

Thanks, Kaz.

The black and blue screens returned so I downloaded 88MB worth of Catalyst Control Center from Lenovo, completely uninstalled the current instance, and reinstalled it. I've set Power Manager as you've described and will see what happens.

Some observations:
1) I saw a lot of flashing before videos would play. After the reinstall, videos launch more smoothly - the way they did before my system had its fatal crash earlier this year

2) The Catalyst Control Center skin is plain and does not have the 3D effects that the last install did

3) I've turned off Power Play and there was no immediate crash upon Appying the change

4) FurMark 1.40 returns a score of 132o3 Marks at 1680x1050 full screen. FPS Avg = 2 using 8.442.3.0 driver

I'm running two flash videos on the desktop, one in Firefox, and an avi each in Windows Media Player and Winamp at the moment. Been stable for ~20 minutes and counting

Kaz · #40 Post by **Kaz** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:11 pm

Some frustrating news to report. I just froze (typical black screen) attempting to watch an MPEG film that I had stored on my laptop and, mind you, have watched successfully many times prior to today. Just prior to watching it, I viewed a WMV file, then followed by opening the MPEG file. Windows Media Player, v11 (with all current security updates from MS), is my default and only media player. After clicking on the MPEG file to watch it, Windows Media Player opened, then an immediate crash/freeze occurred. Typical symptoms were evident - full black screen, wireless light remaining on, and only Numlock and lid LED light operational. And also typical, nothing reported in the Event Viewer.

According to the Properties of the MPEG file viewed withing Windows Media Player:

1. Media Type: Video
2. Video Size: 320 x 240
3. Aspect Ratio: 4:3
4. Audio Codec: MPEG Audio Decoder
5. Video Codec: MPEG Video Decoder

I hard rebooted laptop via power switch and was then able to play same MPEG without issue.

Trying to avoid sending the laptop in for warranty work as user feedback has not been positive. If this is an ATI driver or CCC issue, I hope that Lenovo is working very hard on a repair. If a graphics chip or other hardware issue, a formal recall is in order, in my opinion.

Currently, I am still running with PowerPlay disabled.

I plan to perform the following and retest:
1. Remove ATI Catalyst Control Center in Add/Remove Programs
2. Remove Catalyst Control Center--Branding in Add/Remove Programs

Experienced Users: Any guidance on what next steps to take, especially regarding how to get some visibility of this issue within Lenovo?

Grimmeh · #41 Post by **Grimmeh** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 am

I have been surviving for a day and a half on jimmy274's advice on turning PowerPlay to Optimum Performance. I can't be sure that this works until I spend a few weeks on the laptop without it crashing in the same way as always.

Extra special thanks for letting us know that the setting resets, as well. I'll look out for that and keep you guys updated if anything else happens.

Kaz · #42 Post by **Kaz** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:47 am

Freeze occurred again this morning. Last night, I uninstalled:
1. ATI Catalyst Control Center
2. Catalyst Control Center-Branding (not sure what this is)

I followed by rebooting laptop and immediately ran some MPEG and WMV files without issue. Since last night, laptop has either been in operation (AC and battery modes), in Hibernate, or Standby.

This morning, attempted to run same some MPEG and WMV files. Ran one MPEG and once completed (after 4-5 min.), while Windows Medial Player 11 was still open, went to the library and selected a known good WMV. As soon as I double clicked on the WMV, I immediately received a black screen of death.

Hard booted laptop and ran same MPEG and WMV files without issue. I have always had immediate success in playing videos directly after the hard boot. My freeze issue typically occurs when playing videos after the laptop has been used for a period of time. Could be within a day or days depending on when I decide to watch a video. As stated in a previous posting, watching videos is not a frequent occurrence for me as I mainly use the laptop for email, internet browsing, and MS Office products. And also stated, unless I have a defective video chip or other hardware, the GPU temp never exceeds 63 C and the CPU at 53-55 C so I would not expect the issue to be heat related. I keep my vents clean with a can of filtered compress air.

Kaz · #43 Post by **Kaz** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:36 pm

Continuing from my last post, decided to test some different scenarios in hopes of achieving some form of repetition. I am providing a lot of detail in hopes that others can also reproduce my results.

High Level Summary:
1. After placing laptop in Standby or Hibernate, regardless whether in AC or Battery modes of operation, this consistently led to Black Screen of Death when playing video immediately upon bringing laptop out of either of these shutdown modes. In all cases, playing the first or second video caused a freeze.
2. After removing ThinkPad Power Manager v 1.40, successfully repeated my testing 4 times before experiencing a freeze on the 5th try. However, what was different about the 5th try is that I did not wait until my wireless card (Atheros) received an IP address and showed that it was connected. All other tests were performed AFTER a successful wireless connection was established.
3. Continued testing with manual wireless switch (front of T60) turned off and I could not reproduce the crash after multiple tests using standby and hibernate and testing video play after powering back up (both MPEG and WMV files).
4. This certainly may be isolated, thus looking for support from the user group, but so far, removing Thinkpad Pwr Manager was a great improvement and there may also be come conflict from the Atheros hardware or driver. I use Windows XP to control my wireless connections, not Access Manager, which is not installed on my laptop.

Details of my testing today:

Test 1: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11, established proper playback of MPEG and WMV files. Closed lid to place T60 in standby. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, played MPEG file and freeze occurred.

Test 2: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Hard reboot of T60 and waited for good wireless connection. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 3: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Used Fn F4 to place T60 in standby. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, played MPEG file without issue and freeze occurred after playing second file which was a WMV.

Test 4: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Hard reboot of T60 and waited for good wireless connection. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 5: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Placed T60 in hibernate. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, played MPEG file without issue and freeze occurred after playing second file which was a WMV.

Test 6: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Hard reboot of T60 and waited for good wireless connection. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 7: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Placed T60 in hibernate. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, played WMV file without issue and freeze occurred after playing second file which was a MPEG (note I reversed order of files for this test).

Test 8: Removed Thinkpad Power Manager, v1.40 and rebooted T60. AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Waited for good wireless connection. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 9: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times. This is the first time during my testing that my T60 did not freeze after standby or hibernate.

Test 10: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Placed T60 in hibernate. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times. This is the second time during my testing that my T60 did not freeze after standby or hibernate.

Test 11: Switch to Battery Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 12: Battery Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times. This is the third time during my testing that my T60 did not freeze after standby or hibernate.

Test 13: Battery Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Placed T60 in hibernate. After powering backup and waiting for good wireless connection, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times. This is the fourth time during my testing that my T60 did not freeze after standby or hibernate.

Test 14: Switched to AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Wireless connection still active. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 15: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11, Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, I was trigger happy and did not wait for the wireless card to connect. Played MPEG video and freeze occurred with normal symptoms.

Test 16: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11. Turned off manual wireless switch on front of laptop and manually hard booted T60. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 17: Switch to Battery Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 18: Battery Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in hibernate. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 19: Switch to AC mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 20: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 21: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 22: Switched to Battery Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 23: Switched to AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Test 24: AC Mode, Windows Media Player 11, wireless switch off. Placed T60 in standby. After powering backup, successfully played both MPEG and WMV files multiple times.

Will continue testing with the wireless switch on and off. Although the ThinkPad Power Manager has been uninstalled, I still have the Thinkpad PM Device driver 1.44 (11/2/07) installed. It is located under the System Devices section of the Windows XP Device Manager.

Additionally, I have the Atheros wireless adapter with the following details (note: checked the driver setting with the front switch off):
1. 11 a/b/g/n Wireless Lan Mini-PCI Express Adapter
2. Mfg. is Atheros
3. Driver: 6.0.3.94 dated 6.26.07.
4. Wireless adapter has always worked very well.
5. 11d Mode Switch: Disable
6. 802.11b Preamble: Long & Short
7. Map Registers: 256
8. Network Address: Not Present
9. Power Save Mode: Normal
10. Radio On/Off: On
11. Roam Time (sec): 60
12. Roam Time Threshold (db): 15
13. Wireless Mode Selection: Auto

RaviN · #44 Post by **RaviN** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:37 pm

I'm sending mine back to depot again with a clear statement that there is an issue playing videos.

FWIW, I left Catalyst Control Center open and PowerPlay unchecked, queued up a bunch of videos in three different types of players, and let them run overnight with Power Manager set to maximum fan performance. The system did not crash. If I close Catalyst, at some point PowerPlay will get rechecked. With the control panel open, the box has remained unchecked for more than 12 hours.

I would like to hypothesize that power management is a problem with the T60. When I first got the unit in January 2007, the wireless card would shut off whenever I plugged/unplugged the unit and would not come back unless rebooted. It took a lot of time with Lenovo tech support and ultimately led me to this forum where an obscure power management setting tweak fixed it.

With this video problem, adjusting power management settings seems to help although I can't say yet that it solves the problem. I'm toying with the idea of turning off all of the power management if possible. I may get less time on battery but I can't count the hours I've lost hunting down some of these problems.

I am frustrated that a computer designed and sold into the business computing market has so many quirks that the user has to troubleshoot.

Kaz · #45 Post by **Kaz** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:21 pm

After my last test (test 24), I turned on my wireless switch in order to get access to the internet so I could share my results in this forum.

After I completed my posting and closed Firefox, I opened Windows Media Player, and played the same MPEG and WMV files. On the 3rd attempt, I recreated a freeze. I suppose that I could now attempt to turn off the wireless switch and run via a hard wired Ethernet connection or delete the Atheros driver altogether and use the hard wire connection. There goes my mobility for now.....

Ravi,
Before sending your laptop out, do you have any interest or time in trying to reproduce some of my tests? Good luck either way and keep us posted.

RaviN · #46 Post by **RaviN** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:33 pm

Kaz,

The box from Lenovo just arrived and I will be sending the T60 back for another look. I've thought about trying to replicate your thorough test sequence but while the unit is out for repair, I will be looking at other options for my computing needs. Intermittent problems are the hardest to fix and I need a computer that will do straightforward tasks in a straightforward manner. I am hopeful that the unit will come back fixed or be otherwise usable. If not, I may just declare defeat and move on to another machine.

Meantime, here are some further observations and a kluge that might be useful. I have not had a crash since I've taken the fan power management and PowerPlay disabling steps. In order to keep Catalyst Control from re-enabling PowerPlay I have done the following:

1) Installed VirtuaWin multiple desktop tool for XP
http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/
2) Opened up Catalyst Control Center, set all PowerPlay options to Maximum Performance
3) Then unchecked PowerPlay
4) Moved the CCC dialog box to another desktop

For the past couple of days, the CCC dialog box has remained open in another window, the PowerPlay has stayed unchecked, and I have not had the taskbar or desktop in the primary window cluttered due to CCC. I can get to the other desktop using either VirtuaWin's systray icon or by clicking on the ATI systray icon.

I think there is virtual desktop capability in CCC but I didn't want to push my already not-so-good luck with it.

Kaz · #47 Post by **Kaz** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:52 pm

Ravi,

Good luck again on your repair. Just curious, in all your recent testing, was your T60 powered up the whole time or did it ever go into Standby or Hibernate states, as I am only experiencing my freezes after coming out of these states in my concentrated testing? It appears from your posting that you have been putting your laptop through some video marathon testing keeping it powered up the whole time. Kindly clarify for me.

To my fellow ThinkPad users following this thread:

Another update on my testing since I froze immediately this morning after viewing a WMV video sent to me via email and after taking my T60 out of standby. Same symptoms: black screen, wireless light on, fan on (full speed?), Numlock key works, LED light key works.

Current hypothesis and facts based on my T60 testing:
1. Freeze symptoms always the same: black screen, wireless light on, fan on (sounds like full speed), Numlock works, LED light key works.

2. Repeatability of freeze only occurs when playing video after coming out of Standby or Hibernate and it does not matter whether I am in AC or Battery mode. The video does not need to be played immediately after coming out of either power down state to cause the freeze. It simply occurs the first or second time a video is played after coming out of one of these states. I can read email, browse the internet (without playing a streaming video), then I can open Windows Media Player 11 and play WMV or MPEG's to cause the freeze.

3. Even though the current Lenovo versions of ATI CCC, ATI CCC-Branding, and Thinkpad Power Manager 1.40 were uninstalled yesterday for troubleshooting, the potential to freeze still existed.

4. Late yesterday evening, I was able to completely eliminate the freeze in subsequent rigorous tests with the wireless switch off so that the wireless card was not functioning. An ethernet connection was not used. This testing still had the ATI CCC, ATI CCC-Branding, and Thinkpad Power Manager 1.40 completely uninstalled from the laptop. Thinkpad PM Device Driver 1.44 (11/2/07) was still installed.

Suspects:

a. Conflict issues between latest Lenovo ATI driver 8.442.3-080103a1-057754C-Lenovo (1/31/2008), Thinkpad Power Management v. 1.40, Thinkpad PM Device Driver 1.44, and Atheros driver 6.0.3.94 (6/26/07) for the 11 a/b/g/n Wireless Lan Mini-PCI Express Adapter highlighted by playing a video after standby or hibernate (AC or battery modes).

b. ATI CCC may be an issue for some, but I was able to reproduce the freeze symptoms with CCC removed from my T60.

c. I cannot recall when my freeze issues began, but I am positive that I did not have them when the laptop arrived in March 2007 and for many months thereafter. Therefore, I would not discount the possibility that some driver or software corruption may have set it from all the multitude of Microsoft and Lenovo software updates coupled with new software that has been installed since then. I suppose this is the most frustrating part of owning a PC overtime. My MAC buddies are constantly bragging how this never happens to them and that Apple has better control over their software, software providers, and updates. Never owned a MAC so can't comment on this.

Based on my recent test results, my goal in today's testing was to attack the wireless, graphic, and Thinkpad PM device drivers while keeping ATI CCC and Thinkpad Power Management off of my T60. I was not able to achieve any freeze issues after 2 hours of testing with the following device drivers installed or uninstalled as follows:

i. Installed: Atheros driver 6.0.3.94 (6/26/07) for 11 a/b/g/n
Wireless Lan Mini-PCI Express Adapter- adapter setting
Max Power Save set to "None". Note that it was
set previously to "Normal". This is the same driver I had
before, but decided to uninstall, then reinstall it. I recall that
this driver resolved my inability to consistently obtain a strong
wireless connection so I was unwilling to go back to an older
version.

ii. Installed: older ATI Driver v. 8.293.1.0 (9/13/06)
WITHOUT the corresponding ATI
CCC software. This one came with my T60 and I did not have
these freezes when the laptop arrived in March 2007. Testing
performed with both 16 and 32 bit color quality modes and
1680 x 1050 resolution. Currently set to 32 bit.

iii. Installed: older Thinkpad PM Device driver v. 1.33.0.0
(11/10/05). This one came with my T60 and I did not have
these freezes when the laptop arrived in March 2007.

iv. Uninstalled: ATI CCC

v. Uninstalled: Thinkpad Power Management Software (I
really miss the features of this software!)

vi. Wireless switch was on and obtaining IP addresses.
After powering up post standby or hibernate, attempted video
play before and after wireless connection (IP obtained) without
issues.

vii. I also pro-actively reset my power profiles in order to eliminate
any possible corruption that may have existed in the registry.
Essentially, I deleted the profiles in the registry and imported
the same section from the "guest" account and also performed
a "restore default polices" described here:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/913622

Will continue to run in this mode for a week or two, then decide whether to chance installing an older version of the Thinkpad Power Manager, 1.13C, which came with my T60, and, if no freeze issues with this version, then attempt to move my way up to the latest revision. I was not able to find a Lenovo FTP site containing the older versions of drivers. Can someone guide me to this link?

I do not believe that I need the ATI CCC software so I have no plans to re-install it.

Since there appears to be enough reports from users of this same freeze issue, I would love to see someone from Lenovo champion some internal efforts for aggressive testing!!

netchewz · #48 Post by **netchewz** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:03 pm

Hey there. I've been having the same problems for months now, since around the beginning of the year. I'd had my T60 for a year before then, and never had any issues.

I remember it happening around the time I had a blue screen of death, reason being the video driver. I used the Omega Drivers, and updated that to the latest version (Jan 08) and it was around then that I started to pay attention to the freezes. I can't say for certain if this had happened before then, though. I tried Lenovo's drivers too, but I still had the freezes.

I have the same symptoms - blank screen when starting playback of a video file, happens after resuming from standby or hibernate. May also happen after being on for an extended amount of time, though I can't confirm this.
I've had it with wmv/avi/mkv/probably mpg as well and when streaming or with local files. I normally use MPC to play videos, but I've had it happen with WMP11 too. I've tried having my audio player playing music at the same time and when I get the freeze, the audio stutters.

Powerplay makes no difference.

And from some tests I did last night after reading Kaz's (summary of!) tests, I'm getting a similar result - when I have the wireless switch turned off, there are fewer freezes. Since I removed Access Connections, I haven't had a freeze when the wireless is off.

I've tried the latest Atheros drivers (apparently dated 2008), but there's no change. I've also tried disabling WPA on my router, same again.

Then I tried Linux. I tried the same routine that causes the crashes in XP - ie. go into standby, resume and play several videos. I use the same Windows wireless drivers, only with ndiswrapper.

With both the standard mesa radeon driver and also with the fglrx radeon driver, I've played loads of videos and not had it freeze. Sometimes in Windows, I need to play about 30 videos before a freeze. But in Linux, I tried playing arond 80 videos, and it didn't freeze once.

Surely it's not a hardware problem, then?

Since it's been a while since the last Radeon driver from Lenovo or Omega Drivers, maybe this is the problem?

Kaz, whilst I was taking ages (yep, over an hour) to write this post, you posted before me. Because it's late / very early here, I'm not going to edit my post too much.
In short, exactly the same thing happens to me. I've not tried removing the Power Manager yet, and obviously haven't been messing with the ATI CCC stuff because I use the Omega Drivers (=

Anyway, will test out some of the things you've mentioned, will probably focus on the Radeon drivers after I get some sleep.

RaviN · #49 Post by **RaviN** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:35 pm

Kaz,

Kaz wrote:Ravi,

Good luck again on your repair. Just curious, in all your recent testing, was your T60 powered up the whole time or did it ever go into Standby or Hibernate states, as I am only experiencing my freezes after coming out of these states in my concentrated testing? It appears from your posting that you have been putting your laptop through some video marathon testing keeping it powered up the whole time. Kindly clarify for me.

Very good question. I was running the torture tests with power applied. Although the system would ultimately hang, it took a while.

I disconnected ac power and tried again and had substantial problems. When I played a video, the screen would blink a few times before starting. Sometimes thin color stripes would appear. Within a few tries of playing a video, the system hung in black screen some times and blue screen other times with an NMI parity error.

My tests aren't nearly as exhaustive as yours and I was getting a couple of last tries in before packing it up for the depot.

I am pretty sure that ATI CCC doesn't play into the battery-powered results. The blinking screen before video starting happens only when off the lines, though.

netchewz · #50 Post by **netchewz** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:01 am

I removed my video driver and installed the only older Omega Driver I have on my hard drive (v3.8.360).

So far, no more freezing. I'm going to give it more time before we can say for certain, but it's looking like it was the video driver.

Kaz · #51 Post by **Kaz** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:02 pm

Update: Had a great day so far without any freezes. Laptop running on and off since last night and placed into standby multiple times (closing lid). Each time that I have come out of standby, I play my test WMV and MPEG files multiple times and all is running well. I should add that when I made my changes outlined in my last posting, I placed my laptop power profile in Windows XP's Home/Office Desk and will continue to run with this for a while. It still cuts the processor speed in half during battery mode.

Anthony, thanks for your feedback and for taking time to run some testing. Please educate me as to what the Omega drivers are and how they differ from the Lenovo provided ATI drivers? I believe I commented in an earlier posting that I have never used Access Connections and do not have it installed on my T60. Removed it in the Sept. 2007 timeframe. You stated that you "haven't messed with the ATI CCC stuff". Is it loaded and running on your laptop or removed because Omega Drivers do no utilize this utility?

I hope that other users having the same freeze symptoms can take some time to run some tests and provide feedback.

netchewz · #52 Post by **netchewz** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:19 am

Kaz, the Omega drivers are an alternate set of drivers that are aimed at gamers. They used to release updated versions based on the official ATI drivers, so they would've been more up-to-date than Lenovo's last release. Omega haven't released any new drivers since January though, so at the moment there's not much of an advantage using them if you don't play games (except if you prefer the tools, or any other reason I probably don't know about).

I don't have CCC installed, removed it when installing Omega drivers (they come with a different set of utilities).

I haven't had a freeze in the last 24 hours either. I've been in standby a few times, done the usual tests. I'm running the Maximum Performance power scheme with hardware acceleration and PowerPlay at max. Pretty happy here.

Kaz · #53 Post by **Kaz** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:13 pm

Newchewz, thanks for the reply. Kindly provide feedback on the following for comparison purposes:

1. What is your BIOS version?

2. Are you running the Thinkpad Power Management software? If so, what version?

3. What is your version of the Thinkpad PM Device driver?

4. What wireless driver version are your running? The latest version for my T60 model is: Version: 6.0.3.94, Release Date: 2007/08/28 (6/26/07 shown on actual driver). This is the one I am running.

5. You mentioned that you run "Maximum Performance power scheme with hardware acceleration and PowerPlay at max". What software are you using to control your power scheme? Is this setting for both AC and Battery? What software are you using to control your hardware acceleration and PowerPlay? I was accustomed to only seeing PowerPlay as part of CCC. Since you don't have CCC installed, where do you control this, in the Omega tools?

We share the same X1400 graphics and Atheros wireless devices. This information may assist me in determining whether to try and re-install the Thinkpad Power Management software and which version to begin testing. I do miss the ability to check the details of the battery, the battery icon in the taskbar, and make customer profile settings. However, I will still hold off 1-2 more weeks to determine if I can continue to running successfully without any freezes. I continue to test playing multiple WMV's and MPEG's all successfully without freeze. As stated in earlier posts, I rarely play videos and have devoted much time recently in attempting to put this issue to rest since I am very happy with the performance of the laptop overall and did not believe that sending the laptop in for diagnostics of this freeze would result in a permanent repair from reviewing user feedback. I am typically the "cup is half full" type of person, but not this time around.

Thanks in advance for providing the above feedback.

Are there any Lenovo reps that visit these forums that care to comment?

Kaz · #54 Post by **Kaz** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:34 pm

Bill Morrow,

You are a powerful person. Do you have any connections with Lenovo or the Lenovo forum that could increase some visibility on this subject?

netchewz · #55 Post by **netchewz** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:03 pm

Kaz wrote:1. What is your BIOS version?

I have the latest BIOS ,v2.22, dated 16th April 2008.
Saw you wrote that you had v1.14, not sure why they're different, but both ours are dated the same.

Kaz wrote:2. Are you running the Thinkpad Power Management software? If so, what version?

Yes. I believe I have v1.40 installed, as I installed it a few days ago.
Can't seem to find the version number on Power Manager itself, though.

Kaz wrote:3. What is your version of the Thinkpad PM Device driver?

v1.44.

Kaz wrote:4. What wireless driver version are your running? The latest version for my T60 model is: Version: 6.0.3.94, Release Date: 2007/08/28 (6/26/07 shown on actual driver). This is the one I am running.

I have the same driver as you.

Kaz wrote:5. You mentioned that you run "Maximum Performance power scheme with hardware acceleration and PowerPlay at max". What software are you using to control your power scheme? Is this setting for both AC and Battery? What software are you using to control your hardware acceleration and PowerPlay? I was accustomed to only seeing PowerPlay as part of CCC. Since you don't have CCC installed, where do you control this, in the Omega tools?

I set my power scheme to Maximum Performance using Power Manager - the same settings for both AC and battery.
Hardware acceleration is actually controlled by Windows - in XP, it's under Display Properties -> Advanced -> Troubleshoot
As you guessed, I configure PowerPlay using Omega.

I'd encourage you to reinstall the Power Manager, though I don't blame you for waiting.

We both installed older video drivers and have (at least) made our systems more reliable. Surely it shows that it was a problem with the video driver. It's been half a year since the last ATI driver from Lenovo (or Omega, but that's a completely different case) and there have been 7 driver updates from ATI since. I think we're due an update.

Kaz · #56 Post by **Kaz** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:38 pm

Thanks very much for the feedback! I believe the differences in our BIOS is due to the fact that I have a T60 wide screen and therefore was directed to use:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 67020.html

Your BIOS update was:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 63027.html

It's good to know that you are using the latest power management software and PM device driver with no issue, of coarse using the older video driver. In the future, when I am ready to add these back to my T60, I will use these latest versions.

Agree that, so far, the testing is pointing to some bad video drivers. I believe there was more than just the last one. Many, including myself, did not have success rolling back to the previous driver (I can't recall the version), but I uninstalled all ATI software and drivers and installed the version that came with my laptop when it arrived in March 2007. I will have to go back and research if there is a way to determine the video updates I performed in the past.

RaviN · #57 Post by **RaviN** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:49 pm

I missed getting to the DHL dropoff place on Saturday and have unpacked the T60 for a few more tests until tomorrow.

Here's something which be of interest.

1) With the T60 running on battery, I play an avi file in Winamp.
2) I stop and start it using the buttons on the player
3) By the fourth or fifth try, I will see colored stripes on the screen, and the system will hang soon after - often in a blue screen faulting atidvag2.dll or with the NMI parity error

Having tried everything else, I looked through the settings of Notebook Hardware Controller (NHC) which I obtained a couple of months ago when the system was running warm and before its total failure. It sits in the system tray.

In NHC-->Graphic, there are two checked checkboxes:
Enable ATI Powerplay Control in NHC and
Activate Powerplay

I unchecked both.

Note: I had to uncheck Activate Powerplay first and then the Enable ATI Powerplay Control to get both of them

4) I stopped/started the same AVI with the same player >25 times without the freezup occurring. I thought this was progress and stopped that test. (Still on battery)

5) I put the system to sleep, restarted, and tried the video again without problems

6) I reopened NHC and checked the two boxes again.
7) System crashed on the third stop/restart of the avi in Winamp

I have rebooted, unchecked the two boxes, and am torture testing the new configuration with three FLVs, a Winamp video, a WMP video, and a DVD running simultaneously on multiple VirtuaWin windows

8) I have stopped and restarted the the Winamp video 25 times without incident

So, if anyone out there is having video freezes and is running NHC, please see if this helps you.

Update
After more than three hours of the torture test with NHC tweaked as above, all videos are playing properly. I had put all the players into loop mode. Plugging the T60 in and out does not affect anything.

On battery power, I closed the lid and put the system into sleep mode. Upon awaking a few minutes later:
a) The three FLVs resumed playing automatically in the Riva FLV player
b) The WMP video stopped playing but could be restarted
c) The Intervideo DVD player started back up. Upon pressing the Play button, the video picked up where it left off before going into sleep mode[/b]
d) Another video I started in Media Player Classic showed the same response as the WMP video in b)

After 4 full hours of the test, I clicked 'x' to close one of the FLV sessions. The system went to black screen and the DVD player started to make a whirring/chirping sound

Kaz · #58 Post by **Kaz** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:16 pm

Ravi,

Good luck again with the repair of your T60. I continue to test video multiple times daily and cannot reproduce the freeze issue anymore with the older Lenovo ATI driver. Just curious, what rev. are you running and have you attempted to try the one that I communicated, v. 8.293.1.0 (9/13/06) ?

From what I have been able to dig up, here is the history of my video driver installations since I purchased my T60 in March 2007. I have had freeze issues with the last two drivers for sure and cannot recall whether #2 gave me any problems.

My T60 Video Driver Install History (all Lenovo provided)

1. 8.293.1.0 (9/13/2006) - came with T60 in March 2007

2. 8.383.1.1 (9/11/2007) - installed on 10/4/07 shortly after re-building a new hard drive provided under warranty.

3. 8.441-071128a-056348C (12/14/2007) - installed 1/26/08

4. 8.442.3.0 (1/3/2008) - installed 5/19/08

RaviN · #59 Post by **RaviN** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:20 am

Kaz,

I am currently showing under Device Manager for the ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 is 8.442.3.0 from 1/3/2008 after I did the wipe and reinstallation of the ATI software a few days ago. I don't remember what it was before the reinstall, though.

The driver shown under Device Manager for Mobile Intel(R) 945GM/PM/GMS/940GML...Root Port-27A1 is 7.1.0.1015 from 12/27/05

I am going to call Lenovo tomorrow and let them know that I'm going to hold onto the unit for a couple of more days. I re-ran my torture test without using the multiple desktops and so far no crashes after many hours _and_ closing some videoplayer sessions.

My working hypothesis is that the the Enable ATI PowerPlay settings, when checked, are not interacting well with the 8.442.3.0 driver. If I get the fault later on, with the settings unchecked, I'll look at rolling back the ATI driver progressively as you have suggested.

Kaz · #60 Post by **Kaz** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:10 pm

Hopefully between Bill Morrow of Thinkpad.com and Mark Hopkins of the Lenovo forum, this will gain some necessary visibility for resolution, once and for all.

This freeze issue has certainly highlighted the requirement for Lenovo to put much more emphasis on thorough quality testing before drivers or software are released. I do believe Lenovo wants to be a major player in this market and this highlights the need for internal protocol changes.

http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/board/mess ... d.id=12897

T60 freezups

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