R50p vs A31p

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snv · #1 Post by **snv** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:15 pm

What are the pro's and con's of R50p and A31p if compared to each other? Of course, R50p is a newer design, but, as I noticed, at least one distinguished forum member seem to prefer A31p.

I guess, there should be something in it (I have seen neither laptop so far).

ajkula66 · #2 Post by **ajkula66** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:46 pm

They are both great machines, and have somewhat similar issues and weak spots.

A31p, with its 3-spindle design, is the last true blue desktop replacement ever offered by IBM. P4M CPU leaves a lot to be desired in today's day and age, but is still quite capable of performing most everyday applications without a blink of an eye. The weak spot is GPU that tends to go insane after years of heating/cooling and will quite often require re-balling/re-flowing of solder around it, or motherboard replacement. USB 1.1 is also a sign of times on this machine....but it does have all the ports that one could think of, including S-video in and out, and FireWire. Battery life is bad. Weight doesn't inspire one to carry it around a lot. But, to this day, that's the only machine that went to space on BOTH American and Russian ships...

R50p suffers from the same GPU issue, although in this case it's more related to physical flexing of the chassis and is generally slightly less sturdy than its older sibling, apart from that is a very fine machine. Mine has been upgraded to a QXGA LCD and Dothan 1.8 CPU and it's one great ThinkPad IMHO. Definitely more modern than A31p, it should be usable for several more years if properly set up. Original DVD Multiburners that shipped in these units are moody and unreliable, plan on replacing it sooner or later if you ever buy such a machine. Lighter than A31p (but still close to 7lbs), with significantly better battery life, but with quite a few ports missing when compared to A31p, although most of these can be obtained via docking station.

Hope this helps.

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:22 am

George, that's the best summary of these Thinkpads I've ever seen. Bravo! But a minor correction:

ajkula66 wrote:A31p, with its 3-spindle design, is the last true blue desktop replacement ever offered by IBM.

The G* was also 3-spindle and was introduced after the A31p. I think of the G series as the successor to the A series, which in turn replaced the 7** series. The G series ended with the G41, so that's the last true desktop replacement. According to the ltwbook, the most recent G41 models were released in Jan 2005, with 3.46GHz Pentium 4!

I recently got a G-series AC adapter for free and it's humongous! 120 watts! Has anyone seen the 12-cell battery?

Puppy · #4 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:31 am

pianowizard wrote:with 3.46GHz Pentium 4!

Which was the worst Intel's product ever. Next generation of desktop processors was based on Pentium-M architecture.

ajkula66 · #5 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:09 am

G series actually ended with G50. which had a Core Duo CPU, but these are very rare indeed.

Problem with G series is that unlike A series, the drives are not swappable, but fixed, and it takes a lot of effort to remove or replace them...Enhanced ones these are.

Had a 12-cell with one of my past G40 ThinkPads. You can kill a horse with it...

G series were fine machines, but the lack of swappable drives and IPS LCDs makes them less desirable IMHO than high-end A31p units.

pianowizard · #6 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:08 am

Wow, I had never heard of the G50! I Googled it up and it seems to have been released only in Japan.

So, the G50 was the last desktop replacement whereas the A31p was the last "good" desktop replacement.

#7 Post by **gator** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:02 pm

Some G41 models came with a 15" SXGA+ IPS LCD.

snv · #8 Post by **snv** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:15 pm

Thank you, ajkula66 and pianowizard! It was a very helpful perspective.

Is it right that UXGA screens are not interchangeable between these models? Are the screens interchangeable
within each generation (i.e., R50p-T42p-T43p as opposed to A31p or T60p)?

What do you see as the main advantages of a desktop replacement? Is it only having extra ports without a dock and having one more Ultrabay? I guess the main point here is that everyone's requirements and preferences are different; I currently use a X31 as a desktop replacement and am pretty happy with it. I do not even use an Ultrabase, as it raises the palmrest uncomfortably, and just connect a monitor to the laptop.

ajkula66 · #9 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:14 pm

gator wrote:

Some G41 models came with a 15" SXGA+ IPS LCD.

Sorry, Sri, but you're incorrect. None of them had an IPS LCD.

pianowizard · #10 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:29 pm

snv wrote:Is it right that UXGA screens are not interchangeable between these models?

Most experts on this forum will tell you that the A- and the R-series can't exchange UXGA panels, but I vaguely recall a European forum member having success doing that.

snv wrote:What do you see as the main advantages of a desktop replacement? Is it only having extra ports without a dock and having one more Ultrabay?

That's just one of the advantages. In addition, these laptops have more powerful components and larger screens. With such a unit, there's no need to add an external monitor or optical drive, so you save desktop space and often money as well. Because your X31 is an ultraportable laptop, it has a small screen with only 1024x768 resolution, so you need to get more working area with an external monitor.

I have one desk at home, one desk at work, and one desk in my mom's house, and I have a 15.0"/15.4" desktop replacement laptop for each -- see my sig. I have only one ultraportable, i.e. the HP nc2400 which weighs 2.81 lb with the optical drive taken out. I wouldn't want to use it as a primary computer everyday because it's relatively slow and the screen is small, but it's ideal on the road. My 14.1" T42 serves as a backup computer. It's powerful enough and has a high enough display resolution to serve as a main computer, and yet it's barely light enough (5.01 lb with optical drive removed) to lug around for a short time period.

ajkula66 · #11 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:36 pm

It all really comes down to what one gets used to...

I've been using high-resolution ThinkPads for over six years now, and couldn't possibly go back to XGA. Meanwhile, my eyesight it beyond bad, but there's a funny twist to that aspect of the story: I can look at an IPS LCD for hours and not get a headache, regardless of high resolution. TN panel of any kind gives me a headache within 90 minutes.

Once I get enough courage to submit myself to Lasik, the whole perception might change, but I'll report on that when the time comes...

snv · #12 Post by **snv** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:06 am

A year ago, I was very tempted to get an R50p (I did not know much about A31p at that time), but finally bought an X31. I guess I was right then, as I have to carry it a lot in my backpack, and my back says "thank you".

I like everything about X31, except for its TN XGA screen: it's small, lo-res and horribly sensitive to the angle of view. That's why I did not abandon an idea to get a laptop with a "proper" (IPS UXGA) screen some day, just cannot justify it right now. Too bad one cannot have both a good screen and low weight.

@pianowizard:
Here is my somewhat different perspective on a workplace arrangement:
Indeed, the small screen of my X31 forces me to use an external monitor for long-time work; the laptop itself (open at 180 degrees) conveniently slides under the monoitor stand when it is not needed, it serves me as a "smart keyboard" with a Trackpoint. With an UXGA laptop screen, I would probably ended up raising it in a laptop stand and using an external keyboard and mouse. The screen of a laptop sitting on a desk is just too low for me to keep my back straight. And I learned it a hard way that I need to keep my back straight.

#13 Post by **gator** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:22 pm

ajkula66 wrote: Sorry, Sri, but you're incorrect. None of them had an IPS LCD.

George, I thought all 15" SXGA+ panels IBM had after the A2x panels were IPS. I guess I am wrong ... thanks for the information!

ajkula66 · #14 Post by **ajkula66** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:03 am

Sri, the looks are deceiving indeed...these are better TN panels (I believe made by LG but am not sure) than most, and can be found on A3x, R40 and G4x units...not to mention R52. Better angles and contrast could fool most people into thinking these are IPS if they didn't have an IPS right by its side to compare...

#15 Post by **gator** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:06 pm

ajkula66 wrote:Sri, the looks are deceiving indeed...these are better TN panels (I believe made by LG but am not sure) than most, and can be found on A3x, R40 and G4x units...not to mention R52. Better angles and contrast could fool most people into thinking these are IPS if they didn't have an IPS right by its side to compare...

Wow, they were TN? If we can make better quality TN panels, why are we having so very crappy TN panels on notebooks today? It is either IPS, ultra glossy TN or low end crappy TN. No middle ground ... and sadly IPS is out too.

Puppy · #16 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:21 pm

gator wrote:If we can make better quality TN panels, why are we having so very crappy TN panels on notebooks today?

Profit. Slow substantial decay of quality is not that noticeable by most of consumers. And if there is no other option ... nothing to compare to ... you're lost. Buy crap or nothing. The only hope is that next technology (OLED ?) will not allow to create such horrible crappy products like current notebook displays.

pianowizard · #17 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:24 pm

gator wrote:Wow, they were TN?

I just picked up the G41 I asked about in this thread. Its 15.0" SXGA+ screen does seem nicer than the T series' 14.1" SXGA+ screen, but the viewing angle is nowhere near that of a Flexview display. I will bring it to my lab to weigh it tomorrow. This is possibly the most unique Thinkpad I've owned and I hope to write a review on it when I get the chance.

EDIT: I just took lots of photos of this G41! See them in this thread.

UPDATE: I determined its weight to be 8.43 lbs (without the AC adapter, of course), making it the heaviest laptop I've ever owned. I've carried it between home and work several times (a 10-minute walk) and it's a nightmare, but it's great to use on a desk. The 15.0" 1400x1050 is low resolution enough that things look huge, so it's very comfortable to surf the internet on it. It's currently my only machine that runs Vista, and I'm doing it because I want to get used to Vista.

ajkula66 · #18 Post by **ajkula66** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:36 pm

It's also one of the very few ThinkPads with a swappable GPU, but yours is already the best one there was for the given model.

Congratulations on your new toy!

Oh, and when I said that the LCD could fool "most people" into thinking that it might be an IPS, I never even assumed that you would fit in that category...

#19 Post by **gator** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:40 pm

pianowizard wrote: I just picked up the G41 I asked about in this thread

Very nice. You have some of the most interesting thinkpads in this forum PW ... I'll be looking forward to your (pictorial?) review.

#20 Post by **schen** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:51 pm

pianowizard wrote:George, that's the best summary of these Thinkpads I've ever seen. Bravo! But a minor correction:

ajkula66 wrote:A31p, with its 3-spindle design, is the last true blue desktop replacement ever offered by IBM.
The G* was also 3-spindle and was introduced after the A31p. I think of the G series as the successor to the A series, which in turn replaced the 7** series. The G series ended with the G41, so that's the last true desktop replacement. According to the ltwbook, the most recent G41 models were released in Jan 2005, with 3.46GHz Pentium 4!

I recently got a G-series AC adapter for free and it's humongous! 120 watts! Has anyone seen the 12-cell battery?

Sorry to jump into this thread so late, but at least for me, it's one of the most interesting I've read in a long time. I would suspect that it's due to the combined knowledge of the contributors. That being said, I will have to at least partially disagree with the above statement at least from a Product Line standpoint.

I don't believe that the "G Series" was ever "True Blue" or designed to be the follow-up to the 76x/770/A20p/A30p/A31p that the R50p where. The Gs were never full-blown in-house designs especially given their contracted by Quanta (main supplier to Dell) nature. Therefore IMHO more of a high-end (at least on some versions) extension of the iSeries (contracted from Acer) as well as the R3/4x.

Of course, that is certainly personal opinion and subject to debate!

P.S. I also have one of those 120w monsters that came with a port replicator and can't imagine carrying it around!

pianowizard · #21 Post by **pianowizard** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:51 pm

schen wrote:I don't believe that the "G Series" was ever "True Blue" or designed to be the follow-up to the 76x/770/A20p/A30p/A31p that the R50p where. The Gs were never full-blown in-house designs especially given their contracted by Quanta (main supplier to Dell) nature.

I meant it's a "true blue" desktop replacement, even though it's not "true blue" IBM.

I think the fact that the G series started very shortly after the A series was terminated, using a slightly newer Pentium 4 CPU (2.0GHz --> 2.4GHz) strongly suggests that it was intended to be a continuation of the A series. All the other series transitions were similarly rapid:

240Z --> S30
390X --> R30
570E --> X20
600X --> T20
770Z --> A20m/p --> G40

By contrast, there was a long gap (both in time and technology) between the I series and the G.

BTW, after buying a G41 several days ago and reviewing the tawbook, I realized that not all G series units had 3 spindles. Mine only has 2, so, by George's definition, it's not a "true blue" desktop replacement.

#22 Post by **schen** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:39 pm

pianowizard wrote: I meant it's a "true blue" desktop replacement, even though it's not "true blue" IBM.

I think the fact that the G series started very shortly after the A series was terminated, using a slightly newer Pentium 4 CPU (2.0GHz --> 2.4GHz) strongly suggests that it was intended to be a continuation of the A series. All the other series transitions were similarly rapid:

240Z --> S30
390X --> R30
570E --> X20
600X --> T20
770Z --> A20m/p --> G40

By contrast, there was a long gap (both in time and technology) between the I series and the G.

BTW, after buying a G41 several days ago and reviewing the tawbook, I realized that not all G series units had 3 spindles. Mine only has 2, so, by George's definition, it's not a "true blue" desktop replacement.

I agree. And that in these sort of assessments, they are very subject to the definition of the individual and consequently very subjective. My criteria are mostly based on a combination of design/engineering/build-quality and from my handling of the various machines, there is a easily detectable difference between IBM engineer/built machines and those where they contributed but were contracted by an outside source.

In examining their corporate position and the related ThinkPad product line, you can see where their decision-making was at the time. The Ts through the T30s and possibly some of the T40s, as well as the A3x were the last of the IBM produced machines from their facility in Mexico. I believe that at that point, IBM came to the realization that the market could no longer support $3-4000 notebook computers and that they could no longer be profitable using their production/marketing model of that time. Therefore, they began to look around at alternatives to lower cost in order to stay "in the game":
* Use a supplier (Acer) that they were familiar with and try to maintain a decent cost/market position equation in the "basic" notebook computer game. This led to the R3x and R4x machine which I really believe to be the successor to the A line, although the R3x and A3x do overlap.
* Try a different supplier (Quanta) and try to get into (at the time) still emerging desktop replacement market. Although, George sees the A3x machine as that, I'd resectfully disagree. I see them more as more for the mobile workstation folks as opposed to the mainstream DTR as they already new that they couldn't continue to profitable produce and sell them.
* At this time, they were also starting to work with Lenovo on the Ts and then when that was successful, the future Rs (post R40).

I believe that this time of transition ultimately led them to conclude that they couldn't be profitable in the the produce your computer game and to find a partner to divest themselves of the division entirely. Hence the Lenovo buyout.

I'm happy to read other conspiracy theories of course.

#23 Post by **gator** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:12 pm

Nice theory Stan

It is great to see the evolution of thinkpads as you and PW have outlined above ... the route for evolution is not just dictated by technology but also strongly by market forces in play as well. This is exactly what is happening today too, we are seeing thinkpads move from the 4:3 to widescreen, and with the upcoming SL series we are going to see 'multimedia centric' thinkpads as well.

ajkula66 · #24 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:15 pm

To quote someone whose sharp perception was matched only by his thirst for blood:

"Capitalist will sell us the rope that we'll hang him with if he can make a profit on it..."

#25 Post by **schen** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:43 pm

ajkula66 wrote:To quote someone whose sharp perception was matched only by his thirst for blood:

"Capitalist will sell us the rope that we'll hang him with if he can make a profit on it..."

Stalin?

ajkula66 · #26 Post by **ajkula66** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:07 pm

You were close, but not quite there Stan...

Stalin was a little more than a paranoid, but well-organized mass-murderer...no sharp perception there, whatsoever...man couldn't write to save a life...

On the other hand, Vladimir Ilich Ullanov aka Lenin was a whole different story indeed, and he is the person behind the quote...

#27 Post by **schen** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:27 am

ajkula66 wrote:You were close, but not quite there Stan...

Stalin was a little more than a paranoid, but well-organized mass-murderer...no sharp perception there, whatsoever...man couldn't write to save a life...

On the other hand, Vladimir Ilich Ullanov aka Lenin was a whole different story indeed, and he is the person behind the quote...

Outstanding! I started thinking Lenin, but got caught up in the mass-murderer thing. Always good to get a little more history. I teach American History, but really need to learn more about European history in general and Russia history in particular.

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