Wheres the Thinkpad Love?

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pikaia · #1 Post by **pikaia** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:27 pm

Sorry if this is a worn topic, but I'm a new convert and was curious about something I've noticed recently.

How come I don't see as many Thinkpad superfans out there? I hear a lot from the Mac-ies, and the Dell-ites, or Toshiba fans (who knows). But Since buying my first Thinkpad (600E) in January, I've become a total convert. I think they're awesome. Given, my exposure to thinkpads over the years has been minimal, but the build quality, and accessibility to upgrade and modify is way better than anything else I've seen. And the new X300 is the best portable laptop I've ever seen.

Is it just price? Or is there a bad stigma I'm forgetting? I remember my aversion initially was the 'pointing stick'. But now I prefer it. Strange.

ArtShapiro · #2 Post by **ArtShapiro** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:07 pm

pikaia wrote:How come I don't see as many Thinkpad superfans out there?

Maybe people here are too sophisticated for such shenanigans. Zealots, for whatever item or cause or concept, tend to be obnoxious. We tend to freely discuss both the strengths and the weaknesses of various Thinkpads, enjoy them, but not blindly fawn over them.

Actions speak louder than words - many of us have multiple Thinkpads. I'm about to go back to the Post Office (the carrier hadn't yet returned a few minutes ago) to pick up my sixth Thinkpad.

Art

ajkula66 · #3 Post by **ajkula66** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:08 pm

I don't follow forums for other manufacturers since I've never owned anything but a ThinkPad, but there are over 30,000 registered users here...

Some of the most knowledgeable and dedicated ThinkPad enthusiasts are right here...I'm sure that by now you've figured who they are...and they never fail to show real love for these machines...

#4 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:15 pm

Guess I'll take a stab at this....

IMHO, it probably comes from the perception that Thinkpads have mostly been considered "business" machines. As you point out, their initial high price, in comparison to other systems being offered at the same time, limits the market. Does this sound like what Apple has done with Macs? Sure. Then why doesn't the Thinkpad have the "fanboys" (and fangirls??) like the members of "Steve's Army"? Maybe because basic black has never been considered a sexy design. Or IBM didn't have a high profile CEO who yearly puts on a gigantic show announcing the latest product and trying to whip up a frenzy when announcing the "... and more thing" item. I'd like to think that the satisfied Thinkpad owner is more mature and not given into fits of hyperbole when talking about their choice of laptops.

(Full disclosure: I do own an iMac and Macbook and have been quite pleased with how they work when I do use them. All they cost me was two, 40 minute car trips to San Francisco and declarations on my tax returns.)

Personally, I could afford, but not justify, a brand new Thinkpad when I paid about $1500 for an DFI laptop back around 1999. I think the 600E came out around late '98 or early '99 and sold for around $4500. Here's a quote directly from an IBM press release on a 600 (not 600E):

The ThinkPad 600 series offers an ideal solution for mobile professionals who need a performance notebook in a portable package, whether on the road or in the office. The low price (bold is my emphasis) of the new ThinkPad 600 -- $3,199(1) -- makes it easier than ever for customers to own a thin, lightweight mobile business tool that incorporates the latest in mobile processing power.

ref: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/2512.wss

Later on when the DFI was stolen, I went and got a Gateway 450SX4 (in late 2002). Paid about $1900 for that one. The T23s were out by then. I really didn't consider a new Thinkpad at that time because again, the price differential was not worth it to me. I did buy a used 600E around that time for a few hundred dollars and was quite pleased with its performance (still am

). That led to several used 600Xs and that led to the T2 series and now you see where I am (look at my .sig).

pikaia · #5 Post by **pikaia** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:28 pm

Sorry, I think I didn't explain things well. I'm not saying that the members here aren't strong in their conviction, since finding this site I come here regularly, I think everyone here is great... I mean in my daily life I rarely see Thinkpads around. And rarely hear the same sort of fervor (there) as I do with say Apple folks or the people that buy Dells again and again. Especially since now that I've had some good exposure to thinkpads, I don't think any of them really compare in quality and design (Macs aren't bad).

EDIT: I like the design of Macs (aesthetically) but as far as being able to expand and maintain, having full access to the hardware is second to none in the Thinkpad. I regularly think of getting an old ibook and put Linux on it, but after buying and upgrading several 600's at ~$50 a piece I find it hard to justify the cost. Plus I have a Gateway I bought 2 years ago (before my initiation). And my girlfriend will kill me if I bring home another laptop. (Currently have 2 600Es and a 600X and an old Dell CPx I was given for doing some desktop work for a friend...)

Troels · #6 Post by **Troels** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:10 pm

I'm not completely sure what sells a laptop today, but judging by the statistics that Intel leads in the race of the market share of GPUs sold in current notebooks (GMA950 and X3100) i'm bound to believe that people do not base their buying decision on specs only.

It also must be puuurdy. While the thinkpad has clean lines and is more rugged than any consumer laptop by a good mile it is not considered to be an eye catcher.
I think people like curved lines, and designs that you don't notice is constructed of modules. Remember the Pressario desktop line from 1999?

Other than that, Thinkpads were absent from the retail market until Lenovo took over.

kunfuchopsticks · #7 Post by **kunfuchopsticks** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:12 pm

well, thinkpads were never aimed at the same market that Apple had their eyes on.

Corporate employees could care less how their laptops looked, as long as it's robust and works great. The hype around Apple products are just not the same. And also with Apple products, are you paying for the actual product? or the design? or the brand?

ajkula66 · #8 Post by **ajkula66** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:21 pm

ThinkPads were the only corporate laptops when I first got introduced to them some eight years ago...

With Lenovo focusing on retail market, a huge share of corporate customers have turned to ToughBooks and Macs.

I understand the math behind these moves, but as I've stated on several occasions, if Lenovo continues going down its current route, my next new laptop will be a ToughBook...not that they should care, but it feels good saying it anyway.

crazyeddie1 · #9 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:09 pm

rkawakami wrote:Or IBM didn't have a high profile CEO who yearly puts on a gigantic show announcing the latest product and trying to whip up a frenzy when announcing the "... and more thing" item.

Hello Ray, the magic lies in the reality distortion field

dominus · #10 Post by **dominus** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:25 pm

Hey All,
Personally I think it all comes down to what people want to pay for. Substance or style. No don't get me wrong the MacBook Pro has some nice specs. But can it do what MY R60 can? The love is there, the hype is not. I think that is ok, as long as Lenovo doesn't change what our beloved ThinkPads became beloved for.

-Chris

anthean · #11 Post by **anthean** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:50 pm

First, Apple really is in a class by itself, because it is not just a piece of hardware, but also an operating system, and if all the advertising is to be believed, a lifestyle.

Thinkpads aren't sold based on lifestyle. Thinkpads are sold as a rock solid productivity tool.

As to the other brands you've mentioned, I really have never met dedicated Dell or Toshiba fanboys. Not that there aren't any. But from what I've seen, true "appreciation clubs" are pretty much limited to the boutique gaming rigs, to Toughbooks, and to Thinkpads. And Apple, of course.

bobdsmith · #12 Post by **bobdsmith** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:41 am

ThinkPad fan boy here.

I'll upload and post a wallpaper of me a friend drew in a while...connection is too weak now.

Bold text proclaims "IBM/ThinkPad fanboy" heh

Quagmyre · #13 Post by **Quagmyre** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:48 pm

anthean wrote: Thinkpads aren't sold based on lifestyle. Thinkpads are sold as a rock solid productivity tool.

... which is a kind of lifestyle too. I love the "form follows function" approach found with Thinkpads.

My opinion is that Apple and their stuff are overhyped.

csioucs · #14 Post by **csioucs** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:29 pm

Man, I am a Thinkpad Trackpoint (perhaps It should be Thinkpoint) addict. I've used Thinkpads since the 380E, and all I had is Thinkpad. I wouldn't dare propose a Trackpoint less computer, other than Thinkpad to my wife...

I hate to see the 4:3 screen go away...But if they pull a 1680x1050 in a 14.1 widescreen format in the T series I might forgive them.

And the x200 is awesome. Just awesome. For 12'1 to see WXGA and full keyboard, still a nice treat.

But being a fanatic like a Mac guy...no way. I love TPs but that kind of worship is bordering (even passes as) psychological disorder

...

asiafish · #15 Post by **asiafish** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:54 pm

With Apple is mostly about the OS and the user experience. Windows is "Good Enough", compared to OS X being "Terrific".

I've long felt that ThinkPads were the best hardware on the market, but I still use a MacBook as my primary computer because OS X just works better than Windows. OS X is far more stable than Windows, is nowhere near as vulnerable to the malware on the internet, and it just pleasant to use.

Apple hardware is beautiful too, but not as functional as a ThinkPad. y MacBook is considerably smaller than a comparable T61, but lacks the docking ability, swappable drive bay and many configuration options at purchase time. The only Apple hardware features I'd like to see added to the ThinkPad is a slot-loading optical drive (easy to do) and backlit keyboard, which is slicker than the ThinkLight approach, IMO.

ThinkPads rule when it comes to battery choices, keyboard quality and build-quality, too bad they don't (officially) run OS X. While I use OS X as my primary, I've also got a few ThinkPads for large writing projects and for taking into harm's way.

lophiomys · #16 Post by **lophiomys** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:50 am

IMHO Thinkpads would be able to reach OS X quality, by
investing heavily into KDE/Linux. I choose KDE 4 because
this seems to me to be some HQ GUI software most propably
able to compete with OS X.
That would include open data formats and would be
future proof and supported by a community.

Creating a good combination of hardware and OS software
based on KDE/Linux would not be too hard nor too expensive
and IMHO would be a package worth paying for.
(given 4:3 S-IPS LCDs and classic keyboards)

asiafish · #17 Post by **asiafish** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:02 am

Until there is seamless Exchange support and native, REAL Microsoft Office for Linux, that just will not be an option.

lophiomys · #18 Post by **lophiomys** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:52 am

Partially I can confirm that. At my last work place
the IT Admin really tried to migrate to Linux,
but the lack of secure migration scenarios for the MS
Exchange server and missing in-house Linux skills for the very
same at the expert level level stopped the initiative.
But if there's enough money available, specialized companies
do offer Exchange migrations.

Switching to OpenOffice would not have been the problem
according to in-house tests in our case.

I mean, that if Lenovo would start investing now
into the KDE/Linux environment, they could have a rock solid
and competitive platform of HW&SW - say - in two years,
which would then be comparable or better to Apple HW with OS X.
It's quite amazing what you can do today with Suse and Kubuntu
already, but you have to start one day, to get somewhere.
Waiting for The Community to offer native, seamless and REAL
OSS solutions for your own commercial problems would not bring
you very far.

lophiomys · #19 Post by **lophiomys** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:00 am

Addendum:
I would withdraw the funds from any sports sponsorship
(F1, Olympics) and put into the creation of an excellent
HW & SW(e.g. OpenBios, Linux OS, KDE 4) combination
joined under the Thinkpad label.

Something like that would for sure dramatically increase
the "Thinkpad Love".

asiafish · #20 Post by **asiafish** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:25 pm

OpenOffice is not an acceptable solution whenever complex document formatting is required. In the legal profession, for instance, you MUST use the same word processor, not just one that imports and exports, in order to avoid many hours of time spent reformatting documents.

I'll pass. OS X and Windows are the only options, and even OS X doesn't work with courts that insist on WordPerfect, which are still out there.

#21 Post by **gator** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:37 pm

lophiomys wrote:Addendum:
I would withdraw the funds from any sports sponsorship
(F1, Olympics) and put into the creation of an excellent
HW & SW(e.g. OpenBios, Linux OS, KDE 4) combination
joined under the Thinkpad label.

Something like that would for sure dramatically increase
the "Thinkpad Love".

Brilliant idea, and well put. This is the direction I'd love thinkpads to progress.

#22 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:55 am

i thought i saw a new thinkpad with linux as the official OS installed..

#23 Post by **gator** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:38 am

BillMorrow wrote:i thought i saw a new thinkpad with linux as the official OS installed..

'new' thinkpad as in the T400/500 or W400/500 series?

Lenovo did offer a 15" UXGA T60p with a SUSE preload, but that machine was very expensive... what lophiomys is talking about is for lenovo to make a combined HW/SW platform with the thinkpads (ie like apple doing a good job with OSX) with some flavor of linux ... the SUSE preload that lenovo offered was nothing special as such, it was a regular linux install (albiet the enterprise edition os SUSE with some thinkvantage s/w packages).

Wheres the Thinkpad Love?

Wheres the Thinkpad Love?

Re: Wheres the Thinkpad Love?

Apple comparison

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