ATI Mobility FireGL V5700 performance

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bert · #1 Post by **bert** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:26 pm

The following is approximately true:

V5700 = HD3650 = RV635 = M86

This is a midrange GPU. The performance is about the same as for an NVIDIA Quadro FX1600M aka GeForce 8700M (FX570M is 8600M).

The high performance GPU from ATI is M88 = RV670 = HD3870

The low end is M82 = RV620 = HD3470

Pocket Aces · #2 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:43 pm

Wait, so... they won't be much more powerful than the 570M's that are in this generation?

agarza · #3 Post by **agarza** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:54 pm

T61p GPU can playback in very high settings most recent games right, so I guess this GPU is a step forward. I can't wait to get a W500, if money permits me.

#4 Post by **erik** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:59 pm

i'm guessing ATI was chosen for displayport output. none of the nvidia GPUs support it yet.

daphatgrant · #5 Post by **daphatgrant** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:04 pm

So if I am reading this correctly the V5700 will do better then the 570M but just by a little?

bert · #6 Post by **bert** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:02 am

The V5700 is a significant step up from the low end 570M, but not all the way up to the high end as offered in mobile workstations from Dell and HP.

Pocket Aces · #7 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:33 am

Also, can we be sure that the V5700 uses GDDR3 memory? And does the 512MB provide a significant performance increase over the 256MB that's in the HD3650 in the T500?

bert · #8 Post by **bert** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:56 am

More memory does not necessarily mean higher performance. For CAD type applications that do not make heavy use of textures there is no advantage in having 512 over 256. But for games it could make a difference. Other than texture memory, I do not expect the V5700 to perform significantly better than the HD3650. It is likely exactly the same silicon. Perhaps bin-sorted for slightly higher clock-rates. And more expensive of corse ;-).

Troels · #9 Post by **Troels** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:13 am

Pocket Aces wrote:Also, can we be sure that the V5700 uses GDDR3 memory? And does the 512MB provide a significant performance increase over the 256MB that's in the HD3650 in the T500?

I don't get all the fuss about DDR3
Even the FireGL V5200 uses DDR3

Found this through google: http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l296/ ... ic142q.jpg

tzcomwiz · #10 Post by **tzcomwiz** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:49 pm

So will the W500 come both with the ATI card and an integrated card? It seems to imply this on the tech specifications where it gave the battery life for both integrated and discrete graphics.

daphatgrant · #11 Post by **daphatgrant** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:22 am

tzcomwiz wrote:So will the W500 come both with the ATI card and an integrated card? It seems to imply this on the tech specifications where it gave the battery life for both integrated and discrete graphics.

I do believe so but I am not 100% sure.

arlab · #12 Post by **arlab** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:46 am

tzcomwiz wrote:So will the W500 come both with the ATI card and an integrated card? It seems to imply this on the tech specifications where it gave the battery life for both integrated and discrete graphics.

No. The W500, unlike the T400/500 will not support switching between discrete and integrated graphics.

Pocket Aces · #13 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:05 am

arlab wrote:
tzcomwiz wrote:So will the W500 come both with the ATI card and an integrated card? It seems to imply this on the tech specifications where it gave the battery life for both integrated and discrete graphics.
No. The W500, unlike the T400/500 will not support switching between discrete and integrated graphics.

WHAT?!?!?? Say it isn't so!

arlab · #14 Post by **arlab** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:56 am

Unfortunately, that's the true... I also don't understand why...

hanbaoquan1518 · #15 Post by **hanbaoquan1518** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:11 pm

Where did you get that information?

Pocket Aces · #16 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:15 pm

For one, there's no mention of it in the tech specs.

tzcomwiz · #17 Post by **tzcomwiz** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:53 pm

But the tech specs give battery life for both integrated and discrete graphics. Unless you can customize a W500 with only integrated graphics, it would imply that the W500 would come with both integrated and discrete.

Kel Ghu · #18 Post by **Kel Ghu** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:21 pm

If V5700 = HD3650, then V5700 is not an upgrade from FX570. It is actually a step down in performance. It has lower 3Dmark06 scores than FX570.

3DMark06 scores
FX570: 3850
HD3650: 3450
OCed FX570: 5600

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Gra ... t=3dmark06

And, how can a V5700 be a HD3650 if T500 has HD3650?

#19 Post by **erik** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:47 pm

Kel Ghu wrote:And, how can a V5700 be a HD3650 if T500 has HD3650?

they might share the same core GPU but the V5700 is made for 3D CAD apps where the HD3650 is for games.

hanbaoquan1518 · #20 Post by **hanbaoquan1518** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:14 pm

Kel Ghu wrote:If V5700 = HD3650, then V5700 is not an upgrade from FX570. It is actually a step down in performance. It has lower 3Dmark06 scores than FX570.

3DMark06 scores
FX570: 3850
HD3650: 3450
OCed FX570: 5600

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Gra ... t=3dmark06

And, how can a V5700 be a HD3650 if T500 has HD3650?

That's not quite the same. The HD 3650 in that benchmark is RV620 and uses GDDR2. The FireGL V5700 is RV635 and uses GDDR3. So you can't really compare that with the new FireGL, and, does it make any sense to you if they charge you more for a step down in performence? Also, I might think that the HD 3650 in the T500 uses GDDR2, and FireGL uses GDDR3.

arlab · #21 Post by **arlab** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:03 pm

hanbaoquan1518 wrote:Where did you get that information?

From the datasheets.
In the T400/T500 datasheet it is written:

Graphics:
Integrated Intel® X4500
T400: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470/3650 w/256MB
Switchable Graphics.

In the W500 datasheet, the Switchable Graphics option doesn't appear:

Graphics:
Discrete Open GL Graphics
ATI Fire GL M86-GL (512MB)

hanbaoquan1518 · #22 Post by **hanbaoquan1518** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:04 pm

arlab wrote:
hanbaoquan1518 wrote:Where did you get that information?

From the datasheets.
In the T400/T500 datasheet it is written:

Graphics:
Integrated Intel® X4500
T400: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470/3650 w/256MB
Switchable Graphics.

In the W500 datasheet, the Switchable Graphics option doesn't appear:

Graphics:
Discrete Open GL Graphics
ATI Fire GL M86-GL (512MB)

Yeah, but as the post above said, they list two batter lives, one with Integrated and one with delicated GPU. Unless you can customize the W500 with an integrated GPU, I can't think of any other reason why they put that information on if it's not switchable.

Kel Ghu · #23 Post by **Kel Ghu** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:01 am

hanbaoquan1518 wrote:That's not quite the same. The HD 3650 in that benchmark is RV620 and uses GDDR2. The FireGL V5700 is RV635 and uses GDDR3. So you can't really compare that with the new FireGL, and, does it make any sense to you if they charge you more for a step down in performence? Also, I might think that the HD 3650 in the T500 uses GDDR2, and FireGL uses GDDR3.

I honestly don't think GDDR3 will make a huge difference. Does marketing really have to make sense? I don't think so. V5700 is a step up from V5250 for sure, but on paper, it does not look that way compared to FX570. V5700 performance in 3DMark is lower than FX570, and Nvidia is known to have better OpenGL performance. So, so far I don't see anything good...
They probably charge more for other features, but surely not for added performance, because there is almost none. People are better off buying T500, because HD3650 seems to be the exact same chip but with lower clockspeed, slower memory and lower price.

We can rapidly compare some key GPU features. If one look at the stream processors (SP), HD4850 has 800 SPs (last gen) and 8800GTX has 128 SPs (previous gen). At same GPU clockspeed, in most cases HD4850 is not that faster than 8800GTX and it has 6.25 times more SP. (source anandtech.com)
How the HD3650 is supposed to outperform FX570 with only 3.75 times more SPs? The faster memory does make a difference, but it is not significant like it has been between p and non-p T serie Thinkpads, for ex. V5200/x1600 vs x1400 or V3200/x600 vs x300. Here it is V5700/HD3650 vs HD3650... I mean... WTH!?!?

IMHO, the W500 is extremely disappointing...

arlab · #24 Post by **arlab** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:37 am

hanbaoquan1518 wrote:Yeah, but as the post above said, they list two batter lives, one with Integrated and one with delicated GPU. Unless you can customize the W500 with an integrated GPU, I can't think of any other reason why they put that information on if it's not switchable.

Yes, I thought that strange too... Guess we'll have to wait a bit more to know for sure. Anyway, Thinkwiki confirms what I said (no Switchable graphics in W500).

Pocket Aces · #25 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:35 am

Kel Ghu wrote:
hanbaoquan1518 wrote:
Note from Admin: Removed excessive, nesting quoting.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Check out the difference in 3DMark scores between DDR2 and GDDR3 8600M GT's. There's usually more than a 1000 point difference. Where did you get the 3DMark score for the V5700? You can't just assume it'll perform the same as the HD3650. After all, there is a difference in performance between the 8600M GT (GDDR3) and the FX570M, despite being based on the same core.

bert · #26 Post by **bert** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:25 am

I madea mistake in my original post.

The FX 1600M is the same chip as the 8700M (not the 8600M). The 8600M is the sames as an FX 570M. I have corrected it now. Sorry.

Kel Ghu · #27 Post by **Kel Ghu** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:16 pm

Pocket Aces wrote:
Kel Ghu wrote:Note from Admin: Removed excessive, nesting quoting.

One can usually assume such similarities. It has always turned out to be true especially with ATi (V5200/x1600 or V3200/x800). 3DMark score difference between 8600M GT and FX570 is mainly due to different CPU and RAM more than GPU or GDDR. It is different, but only very slightly. I am talking about huge differences here, like between FX570 (p) and NVS 140M (non-p).
Have you seen 8600M GT in any thinkpad? Would you buy the T61p if there was the 8600M GT in the T61? I really don't think so... And that is what it is going to happen with T500 and W500...

From my experience, the CAD stuff are not hardwired, it is in the drivers, which can be hacked. And all card supports OpenGL 2.0 which should be well enough for CAD apps, no need of FireGL nor Quadro.

awolfe63 · #28 Post by **awolfe63** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:16 pm

I think the datasheet is pretty clear. Switchable graphics is an option on T series (integrated only is the other option) and standard on W series.

hanbaoquan1518 · #29 Post by **hanbaoquan1518** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:49 pm

Kel Ghu wrote:
Pocket Aces wrote:

The 3Dmark score between the 8600GT (GDDR3) and the 570m is in the ~4500 range, not much of a difference. It vary depends on the systems equipped with. And as I said, the HD 3650 will probably have GDDR2(RV620) while the FireGL V5700 (RV635) will have GDDR3.
There is a big difference between the GDDR2 vs GDDR3, if you have time go over to NBR and read, many threads have been discussing that.

hanbaoquan1518 · #30 Post by **hanbaoquan1518** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:56 pm

Kel Ghu wrote:
Pocket Aces wrote:

The 3Dmark score between the 8600GT (GDDR3) and the 570m is in the ~4500 range, not much of a difference. It vary depends on the systems equipped with. And as I said, the HD 3650 will probably have GDDR2(RV620) while the FireGL V5700 (RV635) will have GDDR3.
There is a big difference between the GDDR2 vs GDDR3, if you have time go over to NBR and read, many threads have been discussing that.
Regarding the difference between Quadro/FireGL and Geforce/Radeon. Have a read here http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=80145. It's not as simply as hacking the drivers.

ATI Mobility FireGL V5700 performance

ATI Mobility FireGL V5700 performance

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