SCREEN quality of the T500's?? LED vs. IPS? No IPS comeback!

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Crunch · #1 Post by **Crunch** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:54 pm

Hey all,

Although the T500 series does unfortunately not mean that we're getting IPS back, not even for a premium that true Thinkpad lovers would pay, myself very much included.

Nonetheless, I'm very interested in one of those T500's, with the LED backlight. How far away are we between IPS Flexview, and the special LED-backlit screen of the highest T500 model!??? MacBook Pro's use those, right? I heard good things about them...

What say you, all?

#2 Post by **gator** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:10 pm

LED or CCFL backlight does not determine the quality of the panel. They only determine the brighntness and how even the LCD panel is lit ... contrast and color quality depends on the panel technology used, and IPS was the best in these even with the older CCFL backlights ... the newer thinkpads will have WUXGA displays akin to the ones we have in the 15" T61p models. I'd love to see good quality panels too, but my guess is that we'll be seeing TN panels only - whether or not they come close to IPS, we can only surmise now ... the truth is to be seen when the laptops come out.

Roisin · #3 Post by **Roisin** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:17 pm

well, no manufacturer uses IPS screens nowdays, but why can apple and sony get beatiful bright contrasty TN screens, and thinkpads are crippled by screens that look like the machine is turned off next to a macbook

Dead1nside · #4 Post by **Dead1nside** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:46 pm

Roisin wrote:well, no manufacturer uses IPS screens nowdays, but why can apple and sony get beatiful bright contrasty TN screens, and thinkpads are crippled by screens that look like the machine is turned off next to a macbook

I think everyone wanders that question... it's the biggest disappointment I have personally about Thinkpads. It wouldn't be as bad if Flexview never existed... but we all know how good it can be.

Troels · #5 Post by **Troels** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:12 pm

Roisin wrote:well, no manufacturer uses IPS screens nowdays, but why can apple and sony get beatiful bright contrasty TN screens, and thinkpads are crippled by screens that look like the machine is turned off next to a macbook

Well, my guess is because they pay more for their LCDs. They can get the LCD configuration they want. Of course, LCD manufacturers set limits too at what they can do, but it is above what currently is available in thinkpads and most notebooks, by the way.
Actually by coincidence Apple uses an Idtech 20" WSXGA+ in their 20" Apple Cinema

Puppy · #6 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:21 am

Roisin wrote:well, no manufacturer uses IPS screens nowdays, but why can apple and sony get beatiful bright contrasty TN screens, and thinkpads are crippled by screens that look like the machine is turned off next to a macbook

Lenovo does not care, they want to maximize profit by using chapest crap on the market (X300 is the best example). I bet LG.Philips (currently major producer of "consumer" x-IPS panels) would be able to produce them again in high volumes if Lenovo paid them.

Hamid · #7 Post by **Hamid** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:35 am

Roisin wrote:well, no manufacturer uses IPS screens nowdays, but why can apple and sony get beatiful bright contrasty TN screens, and thinkpads are crippled by screens that look like the machine is turned off next to a macbook

I am really very picky on screen quality and have never such great Sony and Macbook screens. First of all Sony and Macbook are generally not high res screens, and bright screens (read sony) doesn't mean quality. IQ and brightness are completely independent.

It's my experence that Sony just fools ppl with over bright screens.

Just my 2 cents ...

Pascal_TTH · #8 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:42 pm

Puppy wrote:
Roisin wrote:well, no manufacturer uses IPS screens nowdays, but why can apple and sony get beatiful bright contrasty TN screens, and thinkpads are crippled by screens that look like the machine is turned off next to a macbook
Lenovo does not care, they want to maximize profit by using chapest crap on the market (X300 is the best example). I bet LG.Philips (currently major producer of "consumer" x-IPS panels) would be able to produce them again in high volumes if Lenovo paid them.

I doubt. Even if lenovo pays for premium panel and use them on all their laptops, they did not ship enough laptop to do such a request. Acer, Dell, HP buy much more panels. Remember Macbook pro get a crappy samsung panel and Apple have to face a class action.

Most high contrast panel are gloss. Gloss panel have less filters, cost less and due to less filters are much more bright. Due to a mistake, when I ordrer an LG/Philips panel to replace my T61p's crappy samsung, I get a gloss one firts. A real mirror but very very bright and impressive contrast. The mat panel I have now have the same ref. It' s less bright and contrast is lower (but booth are still very good) BUT I can work without seeing every spot light in my screen.

Puppy · #9 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:14 am

Pascal_TTH wrote:Most high contrast panel are gloss.

Currently. It is a cheap trick to "improve" poor quality of subaverage panels. I'm talking about real displays. There is no need to have glossy coating to get decent contrast. You just need to get better quality lcd panel than current utter crap. Yes, it means higher price.

milstein · #10 Post by **milstein** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:15 pm

Then, does any "IPS-equivalent-replacement" exist on the market?
What can Lenovo do for high-end consumer in terms of the choice of display panel available?

Puppy · #11 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:00 pm

milstein wrote:Then, does any "IPS-equivalent-replacement" exist on the market?

On notebook displays market - currently no, everything is TN.

milstein wrote:What can Lenovo do for high-end consumer in terms of the choice of display panel available?

Nothing, they deliver cheapest crap on the market in all models. They could convince major consumer-oriented x-IPS panel manufacturers (like LG.Philips) to produce them again. But it would bring additional costs and smaller profit -> unwanted result. Are you willing to pay extra money for decent display ? No way - no one cares. Buy crap or nothing.

AvalonXIII · #12 Post by **AvalonXIII** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:50 pm

milstein wrote:Then, does any "IPS-equivalent-replacement" exist on the market?
What can Lenovo do for high-end consumer in terms of the choice of display panel available?

There is a few laptops that still use IPS screen, but they're rare, one such laptop is the Fujitsu T2010.
As a general trend, tablet notebooks get the best screen compared to normal notebooks, but you gotta be careful, because there are some tablet PC's (such as the Dell XT or the HP tablet PC's) that use TN screen.
In contrast, all of Fujitsu tablet notebooks are equipped with BOE-Hydis IPS screen.
There is even a Fujitsu tablet that uses the same 12" SXGA+ panel as the X61 tablet
Hope this answer your question

pianowizard · #13 Post by **pianowizard** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:03 pm

AvalonXIII wrote:There is even a Fujitsu tablet that uses the same 12" SXGA+ panel as the X61 tablet

I had an SXGA+ T61 tablet for several weeks and couldn't stand its graininess. Its wide viewing angle is nice, but due to such graininess, I actually prefer TN screens.

milstein · #14 Post by **milstein** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:14 pm

AvalonXIII wrote:
milstein wrote:Then, does any "IPS-equivalent-replacement" exist on the market?
What can Lenovo do for high-end consumer in terms of the choice of display panel available?
There is a few laptops that still use IPS screen, but they're rare, one such laptop is the Fujitsu T2010....

Thanks AvalonXIII
And after reading some reviews of Fujitsu T2010 vs Thinkpad X60t/X61t, I'm now really drawn towards getting a T2010 instead!
http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/showthread.php?t=11708

AvalonXIII · #15 Post by **AvalonXIII** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:53 pm

milstein wrote: Thanks AvalonXIII
And after reading some reviews of Fujitsu T2010 vs Thinkpad X60t/X61t, I'm now really drawn towards getting a T2010 instead!
http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/showthread.php?t=11708

I personally have both the X61t and T2010. After using the T2010 for a while, I went back to the X61t and couldn't bear the low level of brightness, so I now use the T2010 full time. It is sufficient for my needs. I have the 9-cell battery for the T2010, and can get upward of 10 hours with it (with wifi on, 40% brightness and numerous power saving tweaks)

My X61t, on the other hand, lasts between 6 to 7 hours

AvalonXIII · #16 Post by **AvalonXIII** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:58 pm

pianowizard wrote:
AvalonXIII wrote:There is even a Fujitsu tablet that uses the same 12" SXGA+ panel as the X61 tablet
I had an SXGA+ T61 tablet for several weeks and couldn't stand its graininess. Its wide viewing angle is nice, but due to such graininess, I actually prefer TN screens.

My T2010 also has the graininess described, but it is not a huge bother for me. I rather have a little graininess than screens that make me feel uncomfortable viewing after a few hours

For the record, I have used the T2010 continuously for more than 5 hours on more than one occasion and still feel comfortable

Same goes for the X61t, but it is a little bit on the darker side on brightness.

chazz · #17 Post by **chazz** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:19 pm

Hi All...
this may be some additional thoughts..
2 friends of mine just picked up 2 new laptops..one was the very new
sony 16" (super wide and high resolution uxga) model and the other one was your average gateway..both gloss and wide screen..
I helped them set up their new laptops...
my main focus was on the new sony extra wide uxga screen vs. my beloved flex screens...before I started .. I thought my next laptop would like to be a sony ..since they have the best screens on the market right now..but after spending (like) 15 mins with it ...I wonder to myself..."What a piece of C#$$" and missing to get back to my T60P instead.. the whole thing feels soooo soft..keyboard, plastiky shell...the 16 inch screen is really great for movies...alot less black bar above and below the screen, but the color was not the greatest..saturation was worst than the $600 gateway.. viewing angle was poor to ok, resolution can be even higher....if this is the best screen on the market now... I figure its going to be hard find to get a really good laptops next time around..othen than an apple..
I hate to bark on the same tree on how great the flex screens are after their extinction 1 year(?) ..but its really hard finding a good laptop these days.. I am thinking about sending in one of my flexview screens (hiding in my closet) to get it gloss coated..that would be an amazing contrast, color for movies..just wondering if anyone tried it yet?

Crunch · #18 Post by **Crunch** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:22 am

Alright, are there ANY NON-tablet laptops out there that DO have IPS screens that are equipped with the new Centrino 2 specs??

This would be my very first non-Thinkpad purchase...ever. However, I've never had a Lenovo Thinkpad, only IBM Thinkpads, which is likely the reason.

Puppy · #19 Post by **Puppy** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:02 am

Crunch wrote:Alright, are there ANY NON-tablet laptops out there that DO have IPS screens that are equipped with the new Centrino 2 specs??

No.

Puppy · #20 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:55 am

BTW Hardware Maintenance Manual for T400/T500 no longer provide LCD panel manufacturers. Just FRUs.

Crunch · #21 Post by **Crunch** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:54 pm

That's not good. I would like to get at least an LG panel. I have seen Samsung and LG panels side-by-side, and there IS a definitive noticeable difference.

goodgirl · #22 Post by **goodgirl** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:08 am

If there won't be any new lenovos with good 15" 1600x1200 UXGA Flexview displays, I won't buy another lenovo laptop.

If there won't be any other brand laptops with good 15" 1600x1200 UXGA Flexview displays that also have a trackpoint, I won't buy any other laptop.

Can only hope my T60p lasts for a long time ...

Puppy · #23 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:00 am

goodgirl wrote:If there won't be any new lenovos with good 15" 1600x1200 UXGA Flexview displays, I won't buy another lenovo laptop.

- There will not be any 4:3 displays anymore in ThinkPads.
- There will not be any better notebook lcd panel technologies than horrible TN panels (maybe with exception in tablet models but it is also unsure). Although there are differences in terms of quality among various notebook TN panels.
- Lenovo has proven to use the worst ones on the market.
- Lenovo has proven they don't care about notebook displays quality.

#24 Post by **RonS** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:05 pm

Puppy wrote:There will not be any better notebook lcd panel technologies than horrible TN panels (maybe with exception in tablet models but it is also unsure). Although there are differences in terms of quality among various notebook TN panels.
- Lenovo has proven to use the worst ones on the market.
- Lenovo has proven they don't care about notebook displays quality.

How do you know all this? Can you provide a link to support this information?

I am a big fan of IPS. And, I don't like widescreen laptops. I'm hoping that when OLED becomes mainstream, laptop manufacturers will adopt it at the the baseline display technology.

#25 Post by **archer6** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:01 pm

goodgirl wrote:If there won't be any new lenovos with good 15" 1600x1200 UXGA Flexview displays, I won't buy another lenovo laptop.

If there won't be any other brand laptops with good 15" 1600x1200 UXGA Flexview displays that also have a trackpoint, I won't buy any other laptop.

Can only hope my T60p lasts for a long time ...

I'm with you ! I was lucky enough to be advised that the last of the True IBM ThinkPads would be the 60 series. Therefore I purchased Two New T60p 1600x1200 IPS models, as I do all my 3D design and other modeling work on Flexview UXGA, nothing else comes close. I'm using one as my main work machine, with the other as a spare. Along with my Flexview T60, I hope to be set for the next several years.

qviri · #26 Post by **qviri** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:04 pm

RonS wrote:
Puppy wrote:There will not be any better notebook lcd panel technologies than horrible TN panels (maybe with exception in tablet models but it is also unsure). Although there are differences in terms of quality among various notebook TN panels.
- Lenovo has proven to use the worst ones on the market.
- Lenovo has proven they don't care about notebook displays quality.
How do you know all this? Can you provide a link to support this information?

Actions speak louder than links.

milstein · #27 Post by **milstein** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:03 pm

archer6 wrote:...I was lucky enough to be advised that the last of the True IBM ThinkPads would be the 60 series...

60 series was developed by the ThinkPad design team after the acquisition by Lenovo. And the quality has been improved since then.

Some board members have been blaming Lenovo for not providing 4:3 panels: do you think if it were IBM, then IBM will then be willing to persuade these display panel providers then?
Why nobody has blamed IBM for giving up it personal computing businesses including ThinkPad? IBM has given up all of us and just focus on its more lucrative corporative businesses nowadays.

If we think IPS panels used by some of the rival companies, e.g. Fujitsu are really good panels, then we can recommend those better quality display panel providers to Lenovo. I am sure Lenovo is willing to listen us, although there are of course multiple factors that determine if Lenovo is able to acquire display panels from these better quality providers.

lophiomys · #28 Post by **lophiomys** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:59 am

milstein wrote:
archer6 wrote:...I was lucky enough to be advised that the last of the True IBM ThinkPads would be the 60 series...
60 series was developed by the ThinkPad design team after the acquisition by Lenovo. And the quality has been improved since then.

Some board members have been blaming Lenovo for not providing 4:3 panels: do you think if it were IBM, then IBM will then be willing to persuade these display panel providers then?
Why nobody has blamed IBM for giving up it personal computing businesses including ThinkPad? IBM has given up all of us and just focus on its more lucrative corporative businesses nowadays.
[...snip]

If it would be IBM today, we would blame IBM for not providing
IPS-LCDs and 4:3 form factor. It doesn't make a difference,
if it is Lenovo or IBM, either of them should build the best of
Thinkpads.
For the T60-Series quality of the case has improved,
BUT the quality of LCD screens has worsened.
Besides the focus on the Widescreen-format,
whereby the classic 4:3 was abandoned.

ZAGNUT · #29 Post by **ZAGNUT** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:21 am

IPS/flexview is pretty much dead and i seriously doubt any manufacturer would would mess around with developing new ones when all their resources are focused on getting OLEDs to market. two or three years from now used LCD monitors will be given away for free just like with CRTs today.

my only hope is that laptop manufacturers realize that widescreens were a mistake and bring back 4:3 panels when OLEDs take hold.

dave

morgandog · #30 Post by **morgandog** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:48 am

This Lenovo blog provides some insights into the IPS screen issue:

http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=75

At least it sounds like they recognize that they have a lot of Thinkpad users that would buy an IPS screen if they could supply one. (though that blog entry is getting a little old).

SCREEN quality of the T500's?? LED vs. IPS? No IPS comeback!

SCREEN quality of the T500's?? LED vs. IPS? No IPS comeback!

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