The age of cheap notebooks

[Puppy]

The are more and more news about cheaper and cheaper notebooks from various manufacturers. Even non-low-end companies like HP and Dell introduces their new models. There is nothing wrong about it ... yet. I'm starting to fear that top-quality and feature models slowly disappears during next few years in favour of low-end for the masses. Lenovo is good example of quality decline and movement to entertainment (thus cheap) models like SL. Why to continue to produce top-quality expensive models when a lot of people buy cheap crap. Customers who wants quality and are willing to spent much more on it will become marginal.

There is a lot of criticism toward SL line in Lenovo blogs comments. Lenovo 3000 series was clearly branded. But the attempt to merge it with ThinkPad brand name indicates something. Can you imagine that current SL models becomes actually "the future T" ? The anwser will be very likely: "No, it is not possible". Now imagine to ask similar question few years ago about killing IPS displays. The "No, it is not possible" answer is a bit scary, isn't it ?

Do you feel the same ?

[j-dawg]

Why is the assumption about the SL that it will be poorly-built? That ordinary people may want to buy it does not mean it's going to be garbage. A slightly more attractive design isn't going to be the end of the Thinkpad as we know it. A few multimedia features aren't like some sort of antimatter ray that'll blow the computer apart right after the warranty expires.

You mention the 3000 series. My sister has one of the earlier 3000 N100s, and I think it's actually pretty well-built. It's a little fat to be a Thinkpad, but it feels solid to use and type on.

The i series, the R-series, the Z-series, people have worried about the brand being ruined by cheapness and consumer-oriented features every time IBM and Lenovo have tried it. It hasn't happened yet. I don't think the SL-series is going to do it.

[Puppy]

Why is the assumption about the SL that it will be poorly-built?

Screwed keyboard layout.

[ajkula66]

Puppy asked:

Do you feel the same ?

I, for one, most certainly do. SL is a disgrace for the ThinkPad name. Keyboard layout is a sin.

Nothing wrong with Lenovo offering such a machine, but not under ThinkPad name.

[Marin85]

I second that!

[NorrisCell]

The i series, the R-series, the Z-series, people have worried about the brand being ruined by cheapness and consumer-oriented features every time IBM and Lenovo have tried it. It hasn't happened yet. I don't think the SL-series is going to do it.

I was thrilled when I got my Z61t a few months back, and I didn't understand why people bashed them so much. The performance was quick, and the WXGA screen was a nice change. The titanium lid added cool points as well.

Recently I started missing my XGA T40, so I decided to pick up another. Got an SXGA+ T40 from a forum member and was actually able to compare the two side by side. Almost everything about the T40, minus the lack of Dual Core CPU, is much nicer. The Z61 was heavy, but felt flimsy. It always ran super hot, even with the factory CPU in it. The hinges were weak, as was the keyboard response. The novelty of the widescreen wore off quickly as well.

The T40 is slower, but it's so much nicer to use. The Z61t would work well as a desktop replacement, but it's too clunky to be considered easily portable.

I suppose it's all about what's important to the user, but there was a noticeable decline in quality for me.

[thePCxp]

Do you feel the same ?

I don't feel the same. Why do people think that SL series would be poorly built and that it would be the end of the ThinkPad line. I don't think that that is going to be the case. Lenovo knows better than that. And how can you say that the quality of ThinkPads is declining, because its not. I would really like people to stop worrying about this stuff and just sit back and enjoy ThinkPads.

The i series, the R-series, the Z-series, people have worried about the brand being ruined by cheapness and consumer-oriented features every time IBM and Lenovo have tried it.

How can you say that about the R series?

The other manufacturers' notebooks may be cheap (but I don't care about them), but Lenovos' certainly are not.

[bill bolton]

The funny thing about "the good old days" is that they are only "good" in retrospect!

The world changes whether we like it or not. You can spend your time complaining about change, or you can spend your time looking for, and grabbing hold of, the opportunities that change brings.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[ajkula66]

j-dawg wrote:

The i series, the R-series, the Z-series, people have worried about the brand being ruined by cheapness and consumer-oriented features every time IBM and Lenovo have tried it. It hasn't happened yet. I don't think the SL-series is going to do it.

And in hindsight, it appears that all these people were correct. Outsourced I-series and early R-series are, in all honesty, the worst ThinkPads ever made.

Z-series (another outsourced unloved child) has brought us the "windows key", widescreen design and long lists of people waiting for motherboard replecement...for months...sweet they are, light and fast, but Lenovo hasn't made money it had expected on it before throwing it under the bus...

SL, with its ridiculous keyboard, is truly the end of all ends.

thePCxp wrote:

Lenovo knows better than that

Of course they know better, but could care less. Quality isn't the main objective, sheer profit is.That's why:

a) They killed IPS LCDs
b) Discontinued 4:3 format
c) Killed stereo recording capabilites

thePCxp wrote:

The other manufacturers' notebooks may be cheap (but I don't care about them), but Lenovos' certainly are not.

They're getting there. Only one manufacturer kept proper 4:3 format for business users, and that's Panasonic. Compared to them, new ThinkPads look and in fact are cheap. That's why many corporations switched to ToughBooks, and to some degree, Macs. Business users don't care-and will never care-about the price tag.

I'm old enough to remember dishing out close to $4,000 for a brand new A31p in 2002. I could've bought two top-of-the-line Dells (or any other laptops for that fact) and had money leftover. You can't make that comparison today, and Dell certainly hasn't gotten expensive.

The only thing that is left from the true ThinkPad lines, as imperfect as they might have been, is the trackpoint. Lenovo is doing a great job of destroying the brand they had paid billions for...

Just like Ford turned Jaguar into a parody of itself...

Just like CBS squeezed the soul out of Fender name..

So deja vu, and yet so sad...

[j-dawg]

j-dawg wrote:

The i series, the R-series, the Z-series, people have worried about the brand being ruined by cheapness and consumer-oriented features every time IBM and Lenovo have tried it. It hasn't happened yet. I don't think the SL-series is going to do it.

And in hindsight, it appears that all these people were correct. Outsourced I-series and early R-series are, in all honesty, the worst ThinkPads ever made.

Z-series (another outsourced unloved child) has brought us the "windows key", widescreen design and long lists of people waiting for motherboard replecement...for months...sweet they are, light and fast, but Lenovo hasn't made money it had expected on it before throwing it under the bus...

SL, with its ridiculous keyboard, is truly the end of all ends.


So deja vu, and yet so sad...

It may be true that the i series and the early R series were poorly built, but what about their siblings, built at the same time, or later? Did these models affect, say, the T60 series? Is the X300 any worse a machine for the existence of the i series?

My point was that IBM always made attempts to bring the Thinkpad line more in the range, both budget-wise and feature-wise, of the ordinary consumer, but they (now Lenovo) are not forgetting that their business customers rely on durability, reliability, and usability. That the SL series has a different keyboard layout--this, by the way, is clearly the defining point of a portable computer--does not condemn the T series, X series, R series, and W series to the dumpster.

[bill bolton]

Business users don't care-and will never care-about the price tag.

This is just so wrong as a generalisation.

I know from my direct professional experience with corporate IT that the bulk of the "corporate" business market is very, very, very price sensitive in the laptop market sector. For some specific business purposes, price is not so important, but those tend be a small part of the "business" laptop market

Cheers,

Bill B.

[ajkula66]

bill bolton wrote:

For some specific business purposes, price is not so important, but those tend be a small part of the "business" laptop market

I guess I shoud've been less general in my description of the corporate/business market, and left it at something like 90%...

Although I would never doubt Mr. Bolton's experiences, mine have been almost the exact opposite. And constant exposure to IT personnel is unfortunately a part of my daily job, and has been for the past decade.

I still get to see ThinkPads, although a lot less than I used to. A ton of Macs. Quite a few ToughBooks. Hi-end HP every now and then. Almost never anything else.

Business users that I've spoken to are mostly not into widescreens, and are not afraid to spend money which is not their own, anyway.

Those who went with widescreen frenzy bought Macs.

Those who stayed with 4:3 are sporting ToughBooks.

And the ThinkPads that I do get to see are 4:3 units at least 85% of time.

I work in NYC. Corporate fashions travel fast, in my modest experience.

By trying to hard to get into consumer market, Lenovo lost the business one which IBM had a stronghold on for years. Bad move IMHO, but then again, not an unexpected one.

I'm still hoping for Lenovo to come up with a pleasant surprise...but am not holding my breath.

[Troels]

There is a lot of criticism toward SL line in Lenovo blogs comments. Lenovo 3000 series was clearly branded. But the attempt to merge it with ThinkPad brand name indicates something. Can you imagine that current SL models becomes actually "the future T" ? The anwser will be very likely: "No, it is not possible". Now imagine to ask similar question few years ago about killing IPS displays. The "No, it is not possible" answer is a bit scary, isn't it ?

Do you feel the same ?

Somewhat yes. The 3000 is itself a pretty decent laptop at it's price point. However, don't mistake it from being even close to a thinkpad engineering wise. For example, take a look at the HSF cooling solution, which is the numero uno place to cut down costs first.
The LCD hinges are the usual OEM-with-a-new-touch design - nothing spectacular, certainly not manufactured by great OEMs such as Kato or Reel as with the R and T series at least, probably the X too.
Look at how well thought out the screws are positioned in the T, X and R series too in comparison.

For me i feel that the SL series is a riced up Bentley with blue neon and plastic-chrome all over.
Sure one could see it still is a Bentley, but the rice make it look ridiculous and cheap.

The SL series was meant to be for entrylevel small to mid-size businesses with a smaller budgets. That intention is all fair and all - but as a business i don't see how they actually are asking for a glossy lid with a red LED, or a different keyboard layout. I know that Lenovo should try to attract more consumers as well, but at least in Europe - what about appearing more in the retail market first? What about offering prices in the ballpark of the US prices like Dell, HP, Acer do?
What about keeping up with the demand? Take a look in the accessory sales section. The last time i looked, nearly everything shipped in 1-2 weeks. How many people recieved their custom built thinkpad withing a week?

Why cut down on the support department and repair facilities in the US, when this is something that people complain about now like never before? For some reason, the insider recommendation on the forum is to call the Atlanta department, because they are very helpful and know what you are talking about. That just doesn't work in the long run.

And why open a blog post about why IPS displays are no longer possible to get, and that they are trying to investigate other solutions - and still include hideous LCDs in their current gen notebooks?
TN can be decent like Sony and Apple are showing - why not at least try to keep up with them?