Total newbie who wants to switch to Linux w/ x40...but how?

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loinhuhu · #1 Post by **loinhuhu** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:41 pm

I'd just like to first off mention that I have always used Windows XP since the start.

Why am I interested in switching over to Linux? Mostly just customization and the fact that if I have absolute control over anything that's installed on the laptop, it'll be much more stable and faster [ie be a god].

I'm also currently in a technical electronics program and it would be highly beneficial if I could get my hands dirty working with Linux early on.

I'm unsure if prior knowledge of programming is needed. Someone did mention to me how Linux is really just "Dos with a GUI" where everything is run by using command lines.

I have Basic and Assembly under my belt and I'm in the process of learning Java, although I'm not so sure if that would help.

For the time being, I want to have Linux and XP dual boot on my laptop.

Which distro would you guys recommend for a newcomer? Any other pointers? Where should I start?

edit: I'd also like to add that I read somewhere that I could actually PERMANENTLY mess up my laptop if I don't do something properly using Linux...that not even a full HDD format would save my poor x40. Is this true?

aaa · #2 Post by **aaa** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:23 pm

The easy route: Download Ubuntu. It has a "Live CD" feature that lets you try it out without damaging/erasing anything.

On ease, Linux distros like Ubuntu have become extremely easy. It is very possible to entirely avoid the command line. Unfortunately that raises the question of just how useful it would be from a learning perspective, if it doesn't force you to learn anything

. It also doesn't give as much control over things as well.

If you want to go down the educational, absolute control, "(supercharged) DOS with a GUI" route, then I would suggest Slackware. There is no graphical installer, and you have to figure out how to configure the GUI instead of having it automatically set up like in Ubuntu. It's really the "dive headfirst into the freezing depths" route, and lets you control almost everything.

Another route you can take, that's actually the easiest, would be to install Cygwin in Windows. It lets you add lots of Linux programs (such as the Linux commandline, alot more powerful the the dos/windows one) inside of Windows itself. Then you'd pick up something like this guide and start learning things.

And no, Linux will not permanently destroy your laptop. The main risk is when you go beyond running it off cd and create a partition for it. Whenever you repartition your hard drive there's a risk of everything being erased, although it doesn't happen often. That doesn't completely ruin a laptop, although it would be pretty annoying to have to reformat.

whizkid · #3 Post by **whizkid** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:06 pm

Ubuntu is indeed a fine choice for a first-timer. Can't go wrong with that. However, you might want to look into the Wubi installer (http://wubi-installer.org/), which installs Ubuntu into a file on your Windows hard drive. You don't have to mess with partitions that way.

Later, if you want to get dirty, Slackware is another fine choice, but also consider Gentoo.

#4 Post by **GomJabbar** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:26 pm

whizkid wrote:Later, if you want to get dirty, Slackware is another fine choice, but also consider Gentoo.

Yeah, you'll get plenty dirty with those no doubt.

Ubuntu is always mentioned, but it is not necessarily the best choice by any means. Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop. Gnome has it's adherents, but many people such as myself prefer the KDE desktop. Kbuntu uses the KDE desktop, but is probably not the best implementation of it. I personally like Mandriva. Check out http://distrowatch.com/ for reviews and page hit rankings of many distros.

If you have a CD reader that you can boot from, for your X40, download and burn several Live CD iso images from different distros and see which one most suits your taste. Note to burn an iso image you have to "burn image to disc". Copying the iso file to the CD will not work.

vadarfone · #5 Post by **vadarfone** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:49 pm

I am using Ubuntu on a T42 Thinkpad.

It is not perfect, but it has been a challenge getting it running up to this stage, and I have learned a lot of things in the process, so it is all good.

Like someone said, the best way is to dl the LiveCD and try it out!

gongo2k1 · #6 Post by **gongo2k1** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:40 am

GomJabbar wrote:...Note to burn an iso image you have to "burn image to disc". Copying the iso file to the CD will not work.

this sort of thing should be assumed knowledge for someone using linux.
i mean, linux has made great strides in trying to become a more user-friendly desktop environment, but it's still not quite there (i can hear all of the ubuntu fanbois rushing to reply, but even you guys know this is true). the fact of the matter is that while ideally a user shouldn't have to know how the computer works to operate the system, this is still not true of linux.

whizkid · #7 Post by **whizkid** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:06 am

gongo2k1 wrote:the fact of the matter is that while ideally a user shouldn't have to know how the computer works to operate the system, this is still not true of linux.

It's not true for Windows either, but most of us here already have years of experience with it.

#8 Post by **GomJabbar** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:43 pm

gongo2k1 wrote:this sort of thing should be assumed knowledge for someone using linux.

The key word here is "using", as in 'has been using'. I doubt if anyone in my household knows how to burn an iso image even though they are at their computers virtually every day. Many Windows users do not have the need to burn a bootable CD or DVD. The converse is true of Linux users. I am a member of a couple of linux forums and it is evident from the posts I read there that many n00bs dabbling in Linux for the first time do not know how to burn an image to disk.

Whether this information is redundant for the OP, I have no idea. But you know what they say about the word: '[censored]-u-me'.

#9 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:45 pm

gongo2k1 wrote: i mean, linux has made great strides in trying to become a more user-friendly desktop environment, but it's still not quite there (i can hear all of the ubuntu fanbois rushing to reply, but even you guys know this is true). the fact of the matter is that while ideally a user shouldn't have to know how the computer works to operate the system, this is still not true of linux.

Spoken like a true windows fanboi.
The truth is "Usable" has a different meaning for every person. Everyone has different requirements and uses different techniques during the use of their computer. I sell computers to first time computer users and they require a lot of hand holding to run windows. It would be just as easy to teach them Linux.

Here is my home OS experiment:
My wife and daughter are not computer guru's by any stretch of the word. They both have dual boot XP/Linux computers. The boot loader is set to not boot to a default OS. They must choose an OS to boot. They almost always choose Linux. I do not push them one way or the other. If they ask me to setup a program in XP or Linux I do it with no questions asked.
YMMV.

Two things to keep in mind:

1 Everybody thinks whatever they do with their computers is "normal".
2 What you consider "normal" use of a computer is not normal for many millions of other computer users.

Temetka · #10 Post by **Temetka** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:15 pm

It depends on the level of mastery one is attempting to attain.

I myself have my MCSE, but have sworn off Windows except for casual use.

It is my opinion that both OS's are equal in terms of installing them and for the most part internet, music, pictures and e-mail.

To really get either OS tweaked and peaked (per se) one needs to know some pretty esosteric stuff. It's not required to get a base install and hop online but is required when setting up a multi-homing machine or setting up a machine to act as a server with any kind of good security in place.

I prefer Linux to Windows, mainly because Linux is very easy to use and very hackable and I think I have done all that I can do with Windows. Windows is a good OS just as Linux is a good OS to use.

To quoth Scotty:

The right tool for the right job.

ajkula66 · #11 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:52 pm

Temetka wrote:

I think I have done all that I can do with Windows.

Very well put.

And, although it doesn't really belong in this thread, my observation is that the more I use Linux, the more I feel that W2K was the best Windows OS ever.

On the note of setting up a distro on X40, my suggestion would be either Mint (many flavours available) or Mandriva (very intuitive and pleasant to use)...

Good luck.

gongo2k1 · #12 Post by **gongo2k1** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:56 pm

the more I use Linux, the more I feel that W2K was the best Windows OS ever.

+1

i whole-heartedly agree.

Spoken like a true windows fanboi.

i had no intention of my comment coming off that way, i just think it's a little deceptive to tell new people that things just work in linux and that it's really not hard. then they ask about fn-f7 or some hotkey that 'just works' in windows and the answer is something like:
oh yeah, just edit your xorg.conf, then sudo apt-get acpid, then write a shell script like sudo sh -c "echo lcd+crt > /proc/...blahblahblah".
oh, you want to use ics on your winmobile smartphone to get internet on the go? just compile the usb-rndis-lite module and do "sudo /sbin/modprobe ..."
oh, you want to try out the latest version of program xyz? just svn co svn://someproject.sourceforge.net/.../ then sudo make install.

i could go on, but you get the idea. this is second nature to those of us who know, but we tend to forget it's not so intuitive for beginners.

that being said, i 'preach' linux to just about anyone who feels like it's time for a new os.

Whether this information is redundant for the OP, I have no idea. But you know what they say about the word:...

fair enough, but at some point we do have to 'assume' a certain level of proficiency in certain tasks when you're dealing with someone who feels he/she is up to installing a new os. i'm not talking about knowing how to burn from cli using cdrecord (like those of us who made dreamcast backups by hand... fun times...) but basic stuff like 'you don't copy an iso to the cd' because (hopefully) the burning software ought to already know that this is an image to be burned. clearly your experience indicates otherwise, but i wonder how many of those new people are flocking to linux simply as a result of anti-vista fud? i'm not sure there is any way to reliably tell.

back on topic:

first-time linux users are probably better served trying out a distro with good documentation and a thriving online community to help them out. personally, i started with suse 9, but any of the top distros out there ought to be fairly safe. try suse, fedora, ubuntu, pclinuxos, mandriva, knoppix, etc. for people who have never compiled source code before (i think this represents the majority of computer users out there, windows or otherwise) i would initially stay away from distros that use custom packaging systems other than rpm/deb simply because of software availability. it's also wise to invest some time in researching compatibility with your peripherals since some drivers don't support the full functionality (for example, my all-in-one lexmark prints fine but doesn't scan under linux) though this is less and less of an issue these days.

Dead1nside · #13 Post by **Dead1nside** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:51 am

I'd say Fedora personally but I'm sure the popular Ubuntu would also be a good choice.

The X40 is one of the most well supported Thinkpads due to it's popularity amongst Linux developers. Everything should just work right out of the box.

I think that you think Linux is going to be harder to learn that it really is. Yes there's more use of the command line but you don't have to drop down to it all the time, like you used to.

Linux is a great programming environment, it's a lot easier than Windows. If you like you can just write, compile and execute programs all in the command line. If not, there are plenty of integrated developer environments that have a good GUI, for instance Eclipse for Java.

Good luck. Just install it, create a separate /home partition when you do and your distribution will pretty much take care of the rest.

loinhuhu · #14 Post by **loinhuhu** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:47 am

Alright guys, it's only right that I post a follow up.

Initially, I loaded in Linux Mint. Played around with it, was fun. I decided to go for the Ubuntu route for awhile.

One thing I have to say - it is AMAZING how fast my computer is running. The windows are running smooth, websurfing is fast. I don't exactly know how to explain it but using Windows XP gives me a feeling of having a rope around my waist and preventing me from working fluidly on the computer without feeling some major lag.

I'm still having a bit of trouble finding the drivers for my X40 on Windows. With Ubuntu and Mint, it worked straight out. It was fairly easy to install too.

I can't exactly play Starcraft right out of the box or use electronic simulation software, but for coding, websurfing and IM, I'm really enjoying how fast everything is compared to using Windows.

Thanks for the help guys!

Dead1nside · #15 Post by **Dead1nside** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:23 am

With regards to the electronic simulation software, if you do your research I'm sure there'll be a Linux alternative. Software like CAD programs are getting better every day, both the proprietary ones and the open source versions.

There's a spin of Fedora called Electronic Lab, that might have something for you.

#16 Post by **carbon_unit** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:45 pm

I'm glad you like Linux. It is not for everyone.
If you need to run a Windows only app and don't want to reboot you can install Virtualbox from the software manager. This will install a virtual machine that you can install Windows on and then run your windows app.

#17 Post by **archer6** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:56 pm

whizkid wrote:It's not true for Windows either, but most of us here already have years of experience with it.

Brilliant ~ Very well said......

Temetka · #18 Post by **Temetka** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:11 am

@OP: I'm glad Linux Mint is working out for you. Right now I am running the beta of Mint Elyssa and it's pretty good. I can't wait to see how the final turns out.

@Carbon_Unit: Thanks for the heads up on VirtualBox. I've been used to VMWare, but am going to give this a shot due to its price.

#19 Post by **archer6** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:57 pm

Temetka wrote: @Carbon_Unit: Thanks for the heads up on VirtualBox. I've been used to VMWare, but am going to give this a shot due to its price.

I just had a chance to try a ThinkPad with VirtualBox this morning and I'm really impressed with it's performance. Obviously it's not the same as running native, however for what it is, I found it quite good. A great solution for those who want to run in that type of environment.

#20 Post by **carbon_unit** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:17 pm

I use Virtualbox on a daily basis. It does what I need. The speeds are pretty close to native for my applications, close enough anyway.

#21 Post by **archer6** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:18 pm

carbon_unit wrote:I use Virtualbox on a daily basis. It does what I need. The speeds are pretty close to native for my applications, close enough anyway.

Yes, thanks for pointing out the speed aspect, as I did not mean to make it seem slow, as it is indeed quick for a VM.

jglen490 · #22 Post by **jglen490** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:09 pm

Hey folks, we almost hit the truth, but not quite. Perhaps too much emotion, or not enough reflection.

The fact is that the only reason that Windows could be considered a better desktop experience has nothing to do with the OS itself. Hardware manufacturers and their vendors are given access to Windows APIs and Windows has access to the chip makers proprietary specs - all under very strict, and very enforceable non-disclosure agreements. Windows has had huge market share and so the chip makers are quite comfortable with the closed source model that protects their secrets while continuing to support Microsoft's continued near monopoly.

With Linux's (and other open source OSes) ascent into some higher regions of some markets, there are chip makers and vendors who are willing to share some of their secrets with the open source community. There are still not that many, however. The rest has to be done by dedicated and talented folks who work their skills to develop open source drivers that work to some extent. Things like ndiswrapper, fw-cutter, madwifi, and others in the wifi card world especially are products that "usually work pretty well", and more and more often come close to "just working".

It's not open source's fault, it's that the chip makers and their vendors need to be convinced that opening up their secrets will actually result in a good return on their investment and on their trust.

Linux has been "almost there" and inches closer each day. As more vendors are willing to share some secrets, more people find it easier to use open source, and so they tend to buy some of the previously unusable hardware. It's a circle of increasing trust, use, satisfaction.

I've been using Linux since RedHat 5.2, although I dabbled a little in Slackware before that. Not long ago I installed Kubuntu 8.04 on my T20. It was almost a walk in the park in absolute terms, and light years beyond what was required to get either a working Slack or RedHat about 10, 12, or more years ago.

It's all good, and getting better!!

tylerwylie · #23 Post by **tylerwylie** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:58 pm

There are a few things I tell most newcomers to linux that either scares them off or brings them to the dark side

1: The command line is great, use and abuse it! It's a powerful tool, and while some abstraction can be nice, in the end it will almost always be your best friend, and it is as flexible as a chinese gymnast. While you can "use" something like Ubuntu, and get a great Linux desktop OS and avoid the command line, I'm almost ready to say it's not worth it and you'd be better off with Windows.

2: Not all your hardware will work, at least the way YOU want it initially. It could take 2 hours or 2 days to get your hardware working the way you want it, or it may not work at all. Check your hardware for compatibility and make sure what you want DOES work. Thinkpads are blessed with this, as most, if not all of their hardware is Linux friendly.

3: Ubuntu is great to get everything working well. So are Fedora, OpenSUSE, and others, the important thing is to find the one that suits you best, and the one you can get comfortable with. Some people are more comfortable with a RedHat or SuSE based system, some people with Debian. There is tons of help out there for lots of distributions, and actually I get more help with all my issues from Gentoo linux documentation than my specific distribution's documentation.

4: Have fun with it. If you're not having fun, you're not going to want to keep on going. As long as you remember that Linux is not Windows, and realize that it's different then you should be fine. Also don't be afraid to ask for help, but be mindful of your questions. Somethings may be a google away, and reading a little bit of documentation may give you the answer you were about to ask for.

#24 Post by **archer6** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:50 am

jglen490 wrote:Hey folks, we almost hit the truth, but not quite. Perhaps too much emotion, or not enough reflection.
It's all good, and getting better!!

Kudos...Brilliant entry here. I could not agree more, the way you put it into words, in a positive and exemplary fashion. Thanks for the terrific read!

Cheers
archer6

#25 Post by **archer6** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:56 am

tylerwylie wrote:There are a few things I tell most newcomers to linux that either scares them off or brings them to the dark side

Once again I say Kudos! Another Brilliant entry, one with a very uplifting message. A message of truth, clarity and helpfulness. The synergy which I am experiencing here on my favorite [see nonny...

] ThinkPad forum is wonderful!

Thanks
archer6

#26 Post by **archer6** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:30 am

tylerwylie wrote: Ubuntu is great to get everything working well.

Based on my personal experience with a variety of Linux distributions over the last few years of dabbling. Each and every time I "quit" Linux it was not with the intentions of doing so forever, but rather out of failing to approach it in the right frame of mind, and because I started a "project" that I truly did not have time for.

Now I'm back and wish to reach out to those of you who are "considering" Linux.
I encourage you to give serious consideration to beginning with Ubuntu ver 8.04. This version will provide you with easiest and best experience to start off with. I have installed it on several of my Thinkpads, all of which have worked perfectly after the install was complete. And while this may be a bit of an exception, I can assure you that if you find anything that does not work on your ThinkPad after the install, there is an easy fix available. Currently Ubuntus popularity has assured us of a tremendous amount of support and information readily available. Much more so (in my experience) than any other distro designed for ease of use.

Here are a few sources for those that may want to try Ubuntu 8.04

http://www.ubuntu.com/
http://ubuntuforums.org/
http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/

gongo2k1 · #27 Post by **gongo2k1** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:25 am

here's a very emphatic vote for debian lenny! (momma of ubuntu and all it's variants).

#28 Post by **archer6** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:02 pm

gongo2k1 wrote:here's a very emphatic vote for debian lenny! (momma of ubuntu and all it's variants).

Tell us more about this distro.... sounds like one I might want to try...

gongo2k1 · #29 Post by **gongo2k1** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:53 pm

debian is like redhat enterprise linux in that it values stability over new features/technologies. each release is thoroughly tested and the default repositories are fairly conservative in an effort to maximize compatibility. once a new version is released, the next one is worked on until it's done. for example, it's been a couple years since etch was released but they're very close to releasing lenny, probably by the end of the year. it's not like other distros (like fedora, for example) who set a release date and then come hail or high water, whether it works or not (ahem, fedora...) they push it out the door.

aside:
i'm a HUGE fan of fedora, i've been using it for a while now, but i was extremely annoyed when they released fedora 9 with xorg 1.499, making it incompatible with nvidia's drivers (i have a 8600gt on my desktop)... i tried running without accelerated video, but it was way too slow at 1680x1050x16, so i had to DOWNGRADE to fedora 7 (since fedora 8's pulse audio garbage didn't play nice with my desktop's sb live! 24-bit and was causing all sorts of instability and noise). anyway, after botching two consecutive releases, i decided to look elsewhere. yes, i realize that the sb live card is not the greatest for linux use, but i still think it's inexcusable that they should push a release out the door when the nvidia drivers don't work properly... the best part was the attitude that went with the response to the backlash from the community: (paraphrasing) "it's not our fault that nvidia hasn't posted newer drivers to support an as-yet unfinished spec that's used in the very newest version of xorg. we ported all of the available open source drivers to support it, and if nvidia would open their drivers, this stuff wouldn't happen. this is nvidia's fault, complain to them." as if making one measly linux distro incompatible with their drivers would convince nvidia to open up the source code!

ANYWAY... debian works beautifully on my x41, most of the hotkeys are properly handled via the provided scripts (yay!) and all of my hardware is properly recognized and functions as expected. the installer isn't quite as flashy as some other distros, but i sorta like the 'no-frills' style behind debian, it really helps simplify things a lot.

Dodges Unlimited Inc. · #30 Post by **Dodges Unlimited Inc.** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:17 pm

carbon_unit wrote:I use Virtualbox on a daily basis. It does what I need. The speeds are pretty close to native for my applications, close enough anyway.

Greetings All! As this is my first post on your esteemed forum for the 'Design Classic' that is the IBM Thinkpad, I thought I'd start here ... Pardon for 'butting in', but I had to start somewhere!

Following a Linux Users Group meeting last week I couldn't wait to get my hands on an X40 which is now sitting on my desk next to me! Although it arrived in a less than perfect condition, with a screw missing from the cover to the RAM underneath, I'm still happy. It came with a docking station and worked straight out of the box with Windoze XP-Pro. However, I wasted no time in partitioning the HDD and installing Mint Elyssa, as this is my favourite Linux distro at present. It now dual boots perfectly, and everything works 'tickety-boo' - Thankfully! ... Needless to say I'm already thinking about a HDD upgrade, but I have much to learn about that, so I'll not bore y'all with tedious 'numpty' questions just yet!

As a huge fan of Linux, I'm presently hoping to get VirtualBox working on my X40 and the other 3 PCs in my household. Probably because I'm a twit, live in an isolated rural location, and suffer from impatience and ineptitude, I'm struggling with it ... I saw it running just fine on the X40 that brought me here, so understandably: 'Gimme Gimme' too! - Whilst making my 'transition' to Linux Nirvana I still 'need' some Windozy applications - Notably photo editing software. I have The Gimp and UFRaw of course, and Digikam too, but still have Photoshop habits that I haven't quite shaken off. Canon's ZoomBrowser is another favourite that helps immensely with editing, as I'm sure some of you know?! Thankfully Google have supplied us with a Linux version of Picasa2, which runs in Wine as you surely know, so the whole concept of 'dozy applications running in Lovely Linux is well tried and tested. Sadly Wine too presents problems for yours truly, but I'll get there in the end ... MythTV, and OCRopus are my other current 'projects', but they have been 'relegated' in my priorities for now ...

Anyway, I hope to carry my Thinkpad happily into old age with me, and this forum seems like just the place to make that happen, eh?!

Happy 'Padding'

Chris.

Total newbie who wants to switch to Linux w/ x40...but how?

Total newbie who wants to switch to Linux w/ x40...but how?

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