Traveling to US? Or not....

[beGi]

Bad news for all:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/co ... ptops.html



Things like this are keeping my away from US, and they take your fingerprints...

I was thinking about going to US, to see some places, but the whole process (of geting visa, also) is just too painful for me....

What's next? Ah, yeah, anti-missile system deployment in Europe...

I'm not hostile or anything like that, but where does it all goes?

Don't you people have anything better to invest your money?

[Harryc]

Don't you people have anything better to invest your money?

Not really. I watched 6000 people get blown apart on national TV on 9/11/2001. It's money well spent.

[sarbin]

^^^
+1000000...

[ajkula66]

As an outsider looking in...

a) What is hurting U.S. more than terrorism itself is political correctness, and intent on permanently sitting on two chairs, one of them being the Arab world, and the other one Israel.

b) If (more like "when" the way I see it) Obama is elected president, missile shield in Europe will bite the dust. He is in no way prepared, or fit to stand up to Putin and his crew IMHO.

c) Post 9/11 world is headed into complete loss of personal privacy, and once again, a new form of all-knowing, almighty government. People who have seen terrorism in action will in most cases agree that such measures are NOT the way to stop anyone...proven by IRA, ETA and many other groups over the last century, over and over again...

My $0.02 only...

[sarbin]

your 2 cents are worth much, G.

i guess i'd say we're still in the knee-jerk reaction stage re: terror on 'our' soil, here in the us. many places in the world are far more familiar with it, unfortunately. i'd like to think that we'll reach a reasonable equilibrium soon, but for now, it is what it is. for many people, me included, 9/11 is still very raw.

my 2 cents...

[qviri]

Forgive me if I sound like a total jerk here, but I think I have an observation.

As I see it, one key difference, between not even individuals, but societies as a whole, is experience. For well over a century, people in North America haven't seen war in their own countries. I absolutely do not mean to diminish contributions to war efforts that the continent has made -- I probably wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for American and Canadian involvement in WW2 -- but to people here, war means young people going off to a remote place, and many of them dying. We've seen that even the threat of sabotage on this continent or a suspicion of someone sympathising with the enemy is enough to push people to action. I'm thinking about anti-German sentiments during WW1, internment of Japanese-Canadians during WW2, McCarthyism, and so on.

Because of this relative safety, anything that shakes up North Americans' sense of safety at home has a huge effect. The attacks of September 11th are the obvious, and understandably major, example, but I'm also thinking of the reaction I'm seeing to an isolated action of a single man on a bus travelling through the Canadian Prairies this week -- many people are absolutely shocked, and are putting forth what I see as absurd demands for security improvements. No price is too high for the sense of domestic security -- convenience when travelling, revenue from tourists, and others' opinion of them are irrelevant.

To people outside North America (and possibly Australia and New Zealand), this is luxury. They've (collectively) seen wars in their backyards, they've had their civilians murdered, they've seen entire provinces burned to ground. (I'm not going to point fingers; much as we'd like to think otherwise, war and atrocities always go hand in hand.) After going through that, individual acts of terrorism just do not have that much impact. Although a tragedy, death of six thousand civilians just does not have the same impact in a country that has lost six million people, some 90% of them civilians, less than 60 years ago.

I'm not going to say which of the two positions is better; it is impossible to objectively claim one as the better. But, to the rest of the world, North Americans have reasons why they act the way they do, and it is not because they are cowards or dumb. To North America, there are reasons why others ask these questions, and if they do not understand your answers, it is not because they are callous or hate you. The reasons run much deeper than that.


edit: and sarbin said it much more concisely and to the point.

[sarbin]

^^^
gmta, qviri. , but sadly.

north americans are fortunate on the world-stage. very fortunate. we have not had war on our soil in over a hundred years. our collective memory doesn't include the terror and fear that come of it. that all changed on 9/11... for north americans, the world as we know it changed. i know it did for me. and i know it will be a different place for my nieces. maybe it was due. maybe it was our turn. i don't know.

it is what it is...

[ajkula66]

Don't kid yourself, it's raw for me...in a different manner...still very clear and vivid in my memory...and still so surreal, seven years later...

I was in Carnegie Hall putting in a T-1 circuit when the first plane hit...

My wife who had spent her entire career working in the financial industry lost a couple of friends, along with the church she used to frequent while she worked downtown...

We never made it back to Brooklyn that night, there was no way...

And when we finally did, ashes from WTC had covered our car that was sitting in a driveway twenty miles away...

You don't forget stuff like that, whether you agree with certain aspects of U.S. policies or you don't...

And we lived in a neighbourhood that was mainly populated by cops and firefighters...black flags everywhere, corners and streets getting new names...

But there must be better ways of dealing with radicals than restricting everyone's rights...especially in the land of the free...

My opinion only.

[sarbin]

i think it will moderate, G. at least i hope it will.

we're just new at it, relatively speaking.

[mattbiernat]

Bad news for all:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/co ... ptops.html

my question now is what's next?
unwarranted searches and seizures of property?
heck.... lets abolish constitution all together and re-introduce monarchy. HAIL to the KING!!!
now i don't understand one thing. how come when i enter E.U. on my polish passport I just show it once and I hear "welcome..." then when I enter U.S. on my U.S. passport I am asked 7 times what countries have i visited, for what reasons, etc? i mean seriously, are terrorists so stupid as to tell custom agents that they are terrorists? or are the people who make those policies so naive to think that terrorists will admit on being terrorists.
and regarding laptops... why would i bring into U.S. computer full of information about terrorists activities if I could simply send it through the net encrypted to such level that no one would be able to decode it.
oh and i love U.S. and the system in here, despite all of its shortcomings. i've spent 8 months in Poland and I couldn't stand being there. Cali is my home, I just get really annoyed by things that make no sense whatsoever.

[beGi]

Not really. I watched 6000 people get blown apart on national TV on 9/11/2001. It's money well spent.

OK, all victims must be respected, their names must be carved in stone, and they must get their justice. You have watched that on TV, i was watching 5 years of war live with my own eyes....not pretty... But, what i meant to say, why don't you build your shield on US soil? Let us be. Why, someone could say, what is wrong with being protected by shield? A brief intro in war tactics, presence of missile of any kind mean two things: a) you are protected by them (and that is good thing); b) they are key tactical point for opposing side, their presence is a threat (and in case of war, first thing that goes in flame is comm systems and bases). Why involve so much peple that have nothing with american national interests?

[beGi]

But there must be better ways of dealing with radicals than restricting everyone's rights...especially in the land of the free...

My thoughts exactly...

[Harryc]

... But, what i meant to say, why don't you build your shield on US soil? Let us be.

I don't see your point. The article speaks to Federal (on US soil) agents seizing laptops and other electronic devices for the purposes of screening for terrorist activity. How is that not building a shield on US soil and letting you be? The obvious choice is not to travel here if you are worried about the risk of your laptop being seized.

With that said, I agree with "Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), who is probing the government's border search practices. He said he intends to introduce legislation soon that would require reasonable suspicion for border searches, as well as prohibit profiling on race, religion or national origin".

[underclocker]

How long before other countries react by seizing laptops, etc. from U.S. tourists? Very silly policy.

At a minimum, why not modify the policy to 1) only confiscate for good cause, 2) only take the hard drive from computers!!!, 3) supply a new hard drive and a copy of Linux to those affected.

It is preposterous to take someone's laptop for an undefined period of time when they are presumed innocent.

People keep their lives on laptops - school materials, Quicken, work, photos!, legal info, scanned important documents, bank info, contacts, email, music, etc.

At least we now have another reason to backup before we travel and always have a spare ThinkPad or two lying around!

[AIX]

Plain, simple, unimaginative american government..
European Union should do the same with USA officials.

[beGi]

... But, what i meant to say, why don't you build your shield on US soil? Let us be.

I don't see your point.

I was talking about US security in general, from mentioned article to anti-missile system deployment in Europe (let us be part)...

I have nothing against your laws that are valid on US soil, it is your country and do whatever you think is necessary, i may not like it, but i will respect it....

[underclocker]

When you get a speeding ticking via a radar gun in the U.S., you can contest it in court. The first question asked by the judge is about the officer's radar gun training and certification and when the last time the radar gun used for the ticketing was calibrated and certified. (Generally, you speeding ticked is dropped about this time...)

Anyway, what controls are there when an electronic device is confiscated and sequestered anywhere and for any amount of time by those potentially charging you with a crime? Has anyone heard the term "planted evidence".

Preposterous.

[Trekk69]

Being Canadian is great, one quick look at the passport and generally off you go scott free!

[Temetka]

I've known about this policy for months.

To say it drives me up a wall is putting it lightly. This policy is nothing short of Gestapo tactics IMO.

I could write books on the lack of privacy in the land of the free.

This is just another example of 'how not to do things'.

The DHS is casting a very, very wide net in order to catch a few fish. Sure there's nothing wrong with intercepting child port, drug dropoff locations, terrorist plans and the like. However at the cost of looking through nearly every laptop that comes through there and inflicting on those people's privacy is a high one indeed.

I wonder how long this policy (and others like it) will remain in effect under a new administration. So far under this administration I have personal privacy evaporate rather quickly under the patriotic auspices of fighting terrorism.

I'm sorry but invading my privacy is something I would consider a terrorist act by own gov't. But then again I'm just supposed to shut up and waive a flag aren't I?

[mini_g]

I have not yet left the borders of the US, but if I do, it'll be north and be ending up in the Yukon Territory. Nearest neighbor will be at least 20 miles away.

As I have a TON of data that I cannot afford to lose, due to the many many man-hours put into the compiling of the collection, I'll create a secure connection and remote the data up to me & shred it afterwards. The server, HDD's, & accessories will be given to my parents and siblings.

The stuff that I must absolutely have will be on an encrypted microSD chip that is securely hidden on my person. No other HDD or flash memory card that I've used will be crossing the border with me. Only newly set up HDD's & cards.

Plainly put, I'm not about to play chicken with the DHS.

[Temetka]

A wise choice that.

I just create an encrypted, hidded .dmg file (OS X Disk Image).

Then rename it something like:

/var/www/.config

Works great.

Then again, I haven't crossed the border in a long time. Most of their security guys would ignore a hidden config file in that folder.

The key though is not to have anything even slightly incriminating or important on that laptop. Better yet FedEX it to yourself for both destinations (1st destination, then return destination). DHS isn't opending FedEX packages that I am aware of at this point in time.

[makai]

Customs taking someone's laptop is as asinine as a company that forbids usb flash drives in secured areas yet allow DVD/CD burners installed in computers in those same areas. Stupidity beyond comprehension! Is DHS so screwed up they believe the web can't supply data from a foreign source as a download? Geesh! Fire the idiots and save some money already!

[rkawakami]

The obvious choice is not to travel here if you are worried about the risk of your laptop being seized.

That might be a valid option for foreigners but it ignores one very important point given in the article and the published DHS policy.

"DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens..." <snip>

For U.S. business people who must travel with their laptops in order to perform their jobs or for ordinary citizens who enjoy the flexibility and convenience of having a portable computer when traveling on international vacations, you can't simply tell them that they can't do that. And the "seizure" and "copying" isn't limited to just laptops; any digital or analog data storage device is fair game (digital camera memory cards, iPods, cell phones, PDAs and even video tapes fall under these rules).

As somebody of Japanese descent, I can tell you that I'm not too pleased with the concept of having personal property seized without due process, under the guise of "national security". It's not yet quite as drastic as what both of my parents (U.S. citizens) had to endure during the '40s, but it certainly seems to be similar in nature; a policy or executive order infringing upon the rights granted under the U.S. Constitution to its citizens.

Since I had a laptop stolen in Australia several years ago, I have planned that the next time I'm traveling overseas, I'm going to be bringing a system that will have NO personally sensitive information on it (to protect against identity theft) and to use the Thinkpad's hard drive password system. Now, if this DHS policy continues un-abated, then I guess I'll have to extend that to make sure that the only .MP3 files or videos I have on my laptop or iPod are those which I can document having legally obtained.

My slightly cynical view of this DHS policy is to force anyone thinking about bringing contraband material into the country to use the internet. That way Big Brother, who is already tapping into the data streams, can find it easier . Has it only been 24 years???

ref: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10004646-38.html

[mattbiernat]

looks like there are 3 options
1

stegonography

2

relying on the fact that the person searching for the data is stupid.

3

securely downloading

[neenee]

*steganography

Anyway, to stay on-topic, I agree a certain degree of anti-terrorism measures is good to have, but perhaps the 'hype' since 9/11 is now being used as an excuse to put certain measures into effect, which have more to do with controlling information, possibly breaching the privacy of many, than preventing terrorism.

Ofcourse anyone close to New York, both geographically and by proxy, through friends/family/colleages and others, would allow almost any measure to prevent any re-occurance, turning a blind eye towards some measures, gladly sacrificing part of who they are, to feel safe.

But then, I am not in the US, I did feel very bad when I heard about 9/11, I was at work when hearing it on the radio, at first some of us thought it was a practical joke, as the channel we were listening to sometimes does such things, but any grins soon became frowns and we hurried home to have the situation wash over us in a more comfortable location than in a building with 'only' colleagues.

And as I am not in the US, I ofcourse wouldn't be affected to the same degree as US citizens. And I won't pretend to be an expert on freedom/privacy or the lack of either.

Ah well. In short, I too wonder where it all will end and to which changes we should be looking forward to, expecting or dreading, both as onlookers when watching the US and as citizens of the World.

[Temetka]

I carry a lot of gov't docs captured under FOIA on my laptops.

You can be darned sure I won't be carrying any electronic device through the borders.

The last thing I need is my name on some list somewhere, even though all my documents are perfectly legal.

Papers comrade?

[RealBlackStuff]

Time to get the old spy camera out, and start making micro-dots again.
Even the best sniffer dog wouldn't find those!

[andrewb]

As a Brit working for a company which regularly has staff travelling on business to the East Coast, we have already lost a couple of laptops, including a colleague's much prized T60p with Flexview (he cried). There is no expectation that we will ever see these laptops again. We have introduced a requirement with our US customers that they will be liable for all losses flowing from this practice, including paying for the cost of data restoration etc., and indemnifying us for whatever might happen to that data if it gets into a third party's hands.

[GomJabbar]

As a Brit working for a company which regularly has staff travelling on business to the East Coast, we have already lost a couple of laptops, including a colleague's much prized T60p with Flexview (he cried).

I would say you've been Bushwhacked

[rkawakami]

As a Brit working for a company which regularly has staff travelling on business to the East Coast, we have already lost a couple of laptops, <snip>

Can you confirm that those laptops were actually seized by DHS under this policy?? Did the DHS issue your employees any "claim check" as proof that the system was being taken? One would assume that any confiscation would be duly noted on a report given to the seizee with at least the serial number and a itemization of the materials being examined. I would certainly request such a document if this ever happened to me.