Traveling to US? Or not....

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#31 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:29 am

it seems to me that this new rule is there to be used only when someone is making a scene or looks suspicious..

i can't imagine armies of technicians going through every file on every HDD seized as it crosses the border..

my god, that is simply insane..
DHS can't be serious..

#32 Post by **GomJabbar** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:20 am

http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnology/ ... 2423144224

bobbarker · #33 Post by **bobbarker** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:46 am

He added that customs has neither the need nor the resources to search every laptop at the border, so the searches that are conducted are "often premised on facts, circumstances and inferences which give rise to individualized suspicion, even though the courts have repeatedly confirmed that such individualized suspicion is not required under the law."

I'd say that's true and most searches I've seen get the attention they deserve. I went through customs last year in a group and the only person who was stopped had been to Colombia and Amsterdam within the past 6 months (that is a bit sketchy). Of the past few times I've been through I've not had a second glance, although I do fit the typical young white male. Customs typically aims their searches better than say, the TSA who hassles everyone. When I go through I've got to take out my laptop, portable hard disks, DSLR and just about everything in my bag so it can go through separately.

Most times customs acts accordingly but giving them a free pass to go through everybody's laptop doesn't mean 5 years from they won't have that ability and will mirror everyone's hard disk and go through it at their leisure.

leoblob · #34 Post by **leoblob** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:12 pm

"Traveling to the US... or not?"

I say "not."

There's now as many fundamentalists here (in our government) as there are in other troubled or unstable parts of the world. There's lots of cool stuff to see elsewhere, where you don't need to deal with the insanity that we now have in the US.

beGi · #35 Post by **beGi** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:44 pm

Yes, i changed my mind after reading mentioned article (and hearing other peoples stories...), I'll travel around Europe a bit more...

ajkula66 · #36 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:18 pm

beGi wrote:

I'll travel around Europe a bit more...

A smart move...

andrewb · #37 Post by **andrewb** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:31 pm

Can you confirm that those laptops were actually seized by DHS under this policy?? Did the DHS issue your employees any "claim check" as proof that the system was being taken? One would assume that any confiscation would be duly noted on a report given to the seizee with at least the serial number and a itemization of the materials being examined. I would certainly request such a document if this ever happened to me.

Not easy, when it is a short visit, you've just done a nine hour journey and are knackered and want to get to a hotel. Plus, it's no great secret that the customs at certain east coast airports are hardly friendly to Brits anyway. I have not had to suffer personally, but one gets the impression that the best policy is to give up, with there being little to be had by arguing or hanging around at Customs for an indefinite period waiting for any resolution, or even paperwork. Not entirely tongue in cheek, one wonders whether this is just an excuse for DNS officials to abuse their position, and help themsleves to some toys; it would be interesting to know whether any appear on Ebay etc in the fullness of time.

BeeJayEmm · #38 Post by **BeeJayEmm** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:44 pm

BillMorrow wrote:<snipped>

I love your incredulity.

It seems to me the rule is there to be invoked at the whim of the Border agent. I can imagine armies of technicians going through every file on every HDD they seize. It is certainly bordering (no pun intended) on the insane. The DHS is dead serious. Welcome to the post 9/11 Bush/Chaney/Ashcroft version of America. It's more important to give the impression of doing something, even if it is ineffective and only inconveniences law-abiding individuals. With this policy, I predict the DHS will only catch terrorists that are dumber than they themselves are. There may even be some.

mattbiernat · #39 Post by **mattbiernat** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:07 am

leoblob wrote:
There's now as many fundamentalists here (in our government) as there are in other troubled or unstable parts of the world.

there is some truth to that and yet i feel those guys up top are not very much affecting my everyday life.

beGi wrote:Yes, i changed my mind after reading mentioned article (and hearing other peoples stories...), I'll travel around Europe a bit more...

i love big trucks, huge streets, freeways and the ability to go skiing and surfing during the same day. in Europe i couldn't get used to the claustrophobic streets, tiny cars and freezing temperatures. But this is all just a matter of perception. If i was going to compare CA to few countries in Europe, I would say these are two different worlds. if you stay in Europe and never come to U.S. or vice versa, it is like having a chance to go to Mars and saying that you'd rather travel around Earth.

#40 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:10 am

GomJabbar wrote:http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnology/ ... 2423144224

ok, i'm reading from top to bottom and will comment on each post, in order..
first, this:

That authority derives from the nation's "sovereign" and "inherent authority to protect, and [its] paramount interest in protecting, its territorial authority." See U.S. v. Flores-Montano, 541 U.S. 149, 153 (2004).

if this is so then terrorist suspects at guantanamo have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS under the US constitution, at all..

as the constitution does not extend to foreign lands or nationals..

also, the fed gov seems to be using selective enforcement in that it seems to allow illegal entry into the USA at numerous border points yet it wants to examine a laptop or cell phone at an airport..

totally insane and this can not sdtand any real legal test..

you either enforce the constitution equally or not at all..
you can't just pick and choose and this does not come close to the old legal axiom that "cops don't have arms like nets, they can't catch ALL the speeders but they got you.. GUILTY"..

FURTHER commentary..
it seems that law enforcement is using 9/11 to catch child porn collectors and other unrelated to terrorist activity criminals..

its obvious these siezures are less than arbitrary..
they (the govt) has some idea of who they want to target..
thus those who are carring contraband data are really dumb to be actually carrying it..

also, it seems to me that if its data they are after the only thing they can sieze is the data and not the entire laptop or cellphone..

this will blow over, in time, i hope..
and now i have one more reason to not travel to europe or china or anyplace via air..

also, lets keep the political rhetoric out of this discussion..

egibbs · #41 Post by **egibbs** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:36 am

rkawakami wrote:Can you confirm that those laptops were actually seized by DHS under this policy?? Did the DHS issue your employees any "claim check" as proof that the system was being taken? One would assume that any confiscation would be duly noted on a report given to the seizee with at least the serial number and a itemization of the materials being examined. I would certainly request such a document if this ever happened to me.

We have ways of dealing with troublemakers such as you. Please step into the side office now.

Our lovely Secretary of Homeland Security gave a very nice interview last week where he explained the policy, that it only applied to people selected for secondary inspection, and that only suspicious types are selected for secondary inspection. None of us are suspicious, so there should be no problem.

Except that a US Senator pointed out that the actual policy, as found on the DHS website, says no such thing. No such thing at all.

Ed Gibbs

ibmfreak · #42 Post by **ibmfreak** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:41 pm

#43 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:13 pm

egibbs wrote:We have ways of dealing with troublemakers such as you. Please step into the side office now.

Temetka · #44 Post by **Temetka** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:11 pm

Greetings Comrades.

They are using profiling tactics then.

If you look suspicious (under what criteria I do not know) and you have a laptop, mp4 player, cell phone, or any other electronic device then you will be set aside for secondary screening.

I look at it this way:

Currently only some people and their devices are detained and examined.

I can easily forsee the day when all people and all devices are detained and examined.

All we need then is troops in the streets and I'm outta here. I used to serve in the Navy and while I do consider myself a patriot I refuse to watch Amerika degenerate into the police state that it appears to be changing into. Unfortunately open rebellion is no longer an option but thankfully Canada is right up the street.

I do not blame other countries when they view us as controlling and imperialistic. They have that view for a reason. It's also hard to change that image when we have DHS running around seizing laptops willy nilly without having to justify it, provide a replacement or anything.

So Comrades, keep your papers handy and your mouths shut. Get in line and don't draw attention to yourself.

mattbiernat · #45 Post by **mattbiernat** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:50 pm

considering of what is happening right now in Georgia, I think U.S. is one of the safest places to be at right now

qviri · #46 Post by **qviri** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:01 pm

mattbiernat wrote:considering of what is happening right now in Georgia, I think U.S. is one of the safest places to be at right now

Compared to Georgia? Russia? Western Europe?

ajkula66 · #47 Post by **ajkula66** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:02 pm

mattbiernat wrote:

considering of what is happening right now in Georgia, I think U.S. is one of the safest places to be at right now

What's going on in Georgia will be over in a couple of weeks when they bow to Putin. The issues discussed in this thread will be with us for much longer period of time...

mattbiernat · #48 Post by **mattbiernat** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:57 pm

correct me if im wrong but didn't civil war suppose to end within few weeks? same goes for wwI. and hitler was promised part of czekoslovakia in order to settle teritorial dispute, yet he took over the entire country. i will not be completely satisfied until Russians pull out of Georgia and sign a cease fire.

ajkula66 · #49 Post by **ajkula66** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:38 pm

Oh, Russians will pull out of Georgia...once they have set a new government in place...

Everyone has gotten very lax and daisy after the fall of Berlin Wall, first with Gorbatchev and then Yeltsin...who tried to sell out Russia to the West, and almost made it...

There's no kidding with Putin. It's his way or the highway. Just look in his eyes, like Bush did...

Bottom line is: the guy is who he is, and he makes no excuses for it. And the West will play nice because it needs Russian oil. Period.

And yes, it was NATO who told Georgia "sure thing we'll protect you, just stand up to Vlad The Terrible"...oooooooooooops...

Hungary 1956? Czechoslovakia 1968? Rings a bell?

The fact that Russia is ruled by an ex-KGB (if there is such a thing, which I doubt) officer and his select crew is no excuse for the stuff that has been discussed in this topic, I'm sorry...the stuff that "the land of the free" should honestly be ashamed of IMHO...

qviri · #50 Post by **qviri** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:28 am

mattbiernat wrote:i will not be completely satisfied until Russians pull out of Georgia and sign a cease fire.

There was a cease fire in effect, until Georgia sent an army into a province which overwhelmingly doesn't want to be part of the country. That tends to create problems no matter who has agreed to provide security in the province. In this case the insurer decided that the situation warranted more than a stern lecture.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Russia, but what I see them doing is very smart. They're making a statement and providing an example. Don't mess with us; your friends out west are far and only speak loudly. If you do mess, we'll mess back, and you'll feel our displeasure.

I don't think they have much interest in maintaining constant presence in majority of Georgia. They've learned the lesson in Chechenya.

AIX · #51 Post by **AIX** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:03 am

ajkula66 wrote:And yes, it was NATO who told Georgia "sure thing we'll protect you, just stand up to Vlad The Terrible"...oooooooooooops...

Hmm, Vlad the Terrible?! Maybe Ivan the Terrible! Vlad was a romanian (prince of Wallachia) voivode.

#52 Post by **BillMorrow** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:40 am

qviri wrote:
mattbiernat wrote:i will not be completely satisfied until Russians pull out of Georgia and sign a cease fire.
There was a cease fire in effect, until Georgia sent an army into a province which overwhelmingly doesn't want to be part of the country. That tends to create problems no matter who has agreed to provide security in the province. In this case the insurer decided that the situation warranted more than a stern lecture.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Russia, but what I see them doing is very smart. They're making a statement and providing an example. Don't mess with us; your friends out west are far and only speak loudly. If you do mess, we'll mess back, and you'll feel our displeasure.

I don't think they have much interest in maintaining constant presence in majority of Georgia. They've learned the lesson in Chechenya.

the way i hear it is the russians have been fomenting riot and rebellion for years and trying to provoke a reaction..
they got it and were ready to move in..

i would call him peter the terrible..
(yeah, i know i'm mixing czars!)

and "W" is a fool for not seeing the hand of the KGB all over everything putin does..

now the fat is truly in the fire..
we should have pushed georgia into nato when we could do it..

jeeze, if mc cain gets elected, the rhetoric will increase at best and if obama buys the election with his $1000 offer for votes he'll give putin both georgia's..
the one there and this one, here in the USA..

in the words of charlie brown: "Arghhhh"

ajkula66 · #53 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:03 am

AIX wrote:

Hmm, Vlad the Terrible?! Maybe Ivan the Terrible! Vlad was a romanian (prince of Wallachia) voivode.

Well, if Mr. Putin's first name was Ivan, I would've used the term you've suggested, but it is Vladimir...

Vlad "The Horrible" Cepes, aka Count Dracula, if I'm not mistaken?

Trust me, for non-Russian population in Georgia he's both Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Horrible...

AIX · #54 Post by **AIX** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:49 am

Ok, now it's clear why you said Vlad

I don't know why but I thought that you confused Vlad Ţepeş (the Impaler) with Ivan the Terrible. Sorry! :B

ajkula66 · #55 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:30 pm

Nothing for you to be sorry for, AIX...

Judging by my current location you wouldn't be able to tell that I've grown not that far away from you, and have visited your city many a times...and we did learn quite a bit of history that related to neigbouring countries at the time...

Unfortunately, I don't speak Romanian, so I've misplelled Vlad's last name...but he'll forgive me, right...being a nice guy that he was...

AIX · #56 Post by **AIX** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:31 pm

@ajkula66

Maybe I would not know but I think I know: it's a country with long and rocky coastlines, invited to join NATO at the NATO summit in Bucharest 2008.

ajkula66 · #57 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:32 pm

@AIX:

No. My country is the one where NATO self-invited itself for a 72-day training session in 1999...

AIX · #58 Post by **AIX** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:02 pm

Oops I did it again..

A Romanian proverb says that Romania has two friends - the Black Sea and Serbia.

ajkula66 · #59 Post by **ajkula66** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:31 am

@ AIX:

Don't worry about it, I don't hold grudges for silly stuff...I've been mistaken for a Croat before, that's perfectly fine...I'm old enough to say that I still have friends in all parts of former Yugoslavia....

I like the proverb you've quoted in these tiny letters...there's a lot of truth in it...and it goes both ways, only we don't have the sea to protect us...

savarin · #60 Post by **savarin** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:51 am

Romania and Yougoslavia were the only two countries which wanted to help us in 1968. Thanks (after 40 years).
And - we do not have the sea too ...

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