FlexView screen frustration!

[NathanA]

Hey all,

I know that this has been discussed a bit before on this forum in the past because after I noticed it, I went through the forum archives, but I don't recall ever seeing if there was a definitive conclusion that was reached...

The problem is that I am EXTREMELY happy with my 2373KXU and ESPECIALLY its screen...except for one thing. Shortly after I received the unit and posted my relatively glowing review of it in the "Awaiting delivery" thread, I sat down to really examine the thing closely and to get it all set up for use.

Fairly shortly into the process, I noticed that I was really struggling to find JUST the right spot and angle on the LCD to be looking at it from; for some reason, it was really hard to find a location from which the lighting on the screen seemed to be uniform.

Now, I've always been a bit picky about LCDs and backlighting. I remember when I first got my 770, I, a CRT user (exclusively, though not necessarily by choice), was extremely disappointed to discover that it was apparently "normal" for large laptop LCDs to be brighter at the bottom and gradually get darker towards the top (it wasn't simply an "angle" issue; if I turned the display upside-down, the bottom was STILL brighter than the top, and the gradual change in brightness from bottom to top seemed to be fairly linear). I also remember being frustrated by the fact that several parts of the LCD appeared to be "bruised" and darker than surrounding areas. Frankly, I'd rather have a couple bad pixels than a really poorly-lit LCD; the uneven lighting is way more distracting.

However, I gradually got used to the lighting quirks of my 770's LCD, and hardly notice the lighting differences anymore (and by my third LCD on it...another story for another time...most of the bruises seem to be gone as well), not only on my 770, but also on the majority of LCDs that I have to interact with on a regular basis as well as just all LCDs in general. I guess I've just learned to filter it out and take it with the territory.

However, this FlexView screen on my KXU has a rather noticeable and frustrating (at least to myself) defect. I had noticed fairly shortly after I had first booted it up that there were a couple of dark spots/bruises in the lower-right hand corner of the screen. At the time I did not think much of it, and it didn't really bother me so much (after all, I can't think of too many LCDs...at least laptop LCDs...that I've seen without such little dark spots here and there). But overtime, I noticed that narly the *whole* right-side of the screen was darker than the left, and it wasn't a "gradual" darkening from left-to-right or anything like that (as if the backlight was on the right-side of the screen), but rather it looks like there is a large bruise on the right-center portion of the screen near the edge of it.

I'm finding it kind of hard to describe. It's most noticeable if you are looking at a lighter (especially white) background; I especially noticed it while I was looking at listings on eBay which has sort of a white-and-light gray horizontally-striped layout. I notice that the left side of the screen pretty much looks white (and gray), but that as I get closer to the right, white becomes "dirty"; it's no longer white anymore, it's more brown or yellow. And this doesn't happen uniformly from the left to the right; the center of the screen is more affected than towards the top or bottom. It's almost like there is some extra pressure point on the right side of the LCD that is "pinching" the display, causing the display at that point to buckle a bit and bend in. From that point, the "dirtyness" of the display kind of spreads out in an area the outline of which could be described as being parabolic in shape.

It seems, to me (though I'm no display engineer ), that if something *was* pinching the display on the right edge near the center (vertically...between the top and bottom) that it could be causing the crystals on that side to be turned slightly away from me towards the right so that if I'm looking straight at the display, the angle at which the pixels on the left are reflecting light at me is more acute than the angle on the right (because the ones on the right are being "bent" away towards the right due to the extra pressure). I don't know if that made any sense , and I don't know if this is what is happening or not, but if this isn't what is happening, this is at least the best way I know how to explain the sensation because this is exactly what it *looks* like is happening.

Regardless of the underlying reason for it, it is very, very distracting. When I'm looking at a mostly-white screen -- like eBay, for instance, or even this very forum! -- it's like I'm looking at a field full of snow, except that the dog peed on one part. The display looks "soiled" or like one part of it got left out in the sun for too long. The difference between white on the left and right sides of the screen from a normal viewing angle is that dramatic...one side is white, the other, yellow.

I know, I know...I'm picky. However, this issue has been frustrating enough for me that it has actually caused me to consider returning this unit (even though a bad pixel couldn't make me consider such a thing!), as much as I really, really, really don't want to!

What I'm trying to get a sense of is whether it is *possible* to get a FlexView screen without this defect, or whether it is a quirk that all FlexView displays possess. I know that a fair number of you have posted about this in the past and have suffered from this issue, and it does seem that this problem is heavily biased towards the right-hand side of the display, so it could be that this is unfortunately to be considered "normal" as far as a FlexView display goes. If that's the case, there's no point in returning the laptop and wasting all that time to get another one that looks just as bad or worse. However, others have said that although they see it, they are not bothered by it at all. This could mean that all FlexView displays have it but its severity differs from display to display, or that they are equally all bad in this respect but that other people are less observant or picky about it or bothered by it than/as I am.

I just wish that I could see another UXGA FlexView in action to see if it is the same as mine! I just want to know if this is normal, or if mine is "worse" than average. (If this is normal, then the display engineers at ID Tech need to go back to the drawing board; this is ridiculous).

Sigh. And things were going so well. I'd already fallen in love with the laptop.

-- Nathan

[kjarrett]

2373-KXU here with a flawless white screen. I've only seen two of these in real life. Both came from Bill. One was bought by a client, one is mine. Both are flawless.

Sounds like a defect for which I'd return the unit. I don't suppose you're within your 30 day purchase period still?

-kj-

[NathanA]

2373-KXU here with a flawless white screen. I've only seen two of these in real life. Both came from Bill. One was bought by a client, one is mine. Both are flawless.

Sounds like a defect for which I'd return the unit. I don't suppose you're within your 30 day purchase period still?

I am, but I'm debating whether or not to return it and get another, or to just go ahead and purchase the on-site warranty service that I was planning to get anyway and have them replace the screen.

It seems to me that returning it is rife with possible problems. They may not have any more KXU in stock which means I'll be waiting a while to get another unit, plus I've heard that it can take a while to get your money back from IBM, and I can't afford for that kind of delay.

It seems to me that if I have them replace the screen under warranty and I'm still unhappy with the unit, I could decide to return it at that time, so it'd be the best of both worlds (perhaps?).

This screen is getting more and more under my skin. To me, the screen looks like something is causing a pressure point on the right-side that is "warping" the LCD. I need to do something about it soon if it is not normal, but some people say that it IS normal, which is why I started this thread.

Here are the other threads that I had read about problems with "shadows" on the right-hand side of FlexView screens:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=775
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1064 (scroll to faa-der's post)
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1169
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1327
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1582
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1725
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=1770 (scroll to Notnac's post)

All in all, I'd say that there are too many complaints about this subject.

-- Nathan

[ian]

I'm sorry to hear you're having problems with your screen, but I must agree with Keith in that the only examples of the Flexview I've ever seen, are both perfect - this is largely subjective I realise, but I'm sitting here writhing (!) around, moving the screen back and forth and it all seems perfectly linear to me.

I would strongly suggest trying to see another Thinkpad with Flexview screen- perhaps my eyes are not as wonderful ('crap' Steve) as I thought - I'd hate for you to find the same 'defect' after they changed the screen...

[beeblebrox]

Hello NathanA,

maybe you should read a bit about physics of LCD screens and how they are contructed. The problems you have are
a.) only one light emitting CCR tube on the bottom that uses a light refractor and diffusor for evenly (or say mostly) distribute the light across the screen

b.) potentially a light distortion in the screen.

For a.) read a bit about LCD technology for notebooks (e.g. the article about the Sony XBrite is really good in popular science) and sees that there is not much you can do about the uneven light distribution. The High-Brite, Xbrite, Super-Whatever screens simply use 2 tubes on both sides of the screen. Now wonder, why they are so much brighter? (And then wonder, why the battery doesn't last that long)
BTW: that's the case why desktop LCD are so much brighter, they can have up to 4 tubes on all sides.

for b.) I recommend what I did in my case. I disassembled the LCD screen (read the Hardware manual and see the few screws) and turn it on. If the screen is suddenly perfect, then it had a tension before due to assembly in the frame. In that case put the screen loose into the frame and then slightly tighten the screws for not building up the tension again. That's it.
During manufacture of the notebooks the individual steps just take seconds, and there is sometimes just too much pressure applied.

Hope, that helped.

[NathanA]

for b.) I recommend what I did in my case. I disassembled the LCD screen

Hey Beeblebrox,

Thanks for the response!

I actually have read quite a bit on LCDs since I first started using laptops. As I explained in my original message, the uneven lighting from top-to-bottom was initially disheartening to me, but I got used to it. I understand that there is only one fluorescent tube on the bottom (or sometimes one side) of a laptop LCD.

Here is a very quick-and-dirty "mock-up" image I have done to try and show what it is I'm seeing. The dot on the right-hand side is the pressure point area, and yes, the effect of that pressure point really does spread that far on the screen.

http://users.moscow.com/nathana/badlcd.gif

I have actually considered doing exactly what you describe: disassembling my LCD cover. I have worked plenty of times on my ThinkPad 770 to the point where I can get in and out of that laptop pretty fast. I don't feel squeamish about the idea of trying to fix it myself, but what *I'M* worried about is whether or not IBM will be able to TELL that I did work on it myself and will after that point refuse to honor the warranty if something else goes wrong in the future. What do you think the chances are of that happening regardless of how careful I am?

What I was rather hoping for was that someone who reads this forum and has encountered this problem (perhaps one of the people who posted to the other threads I linked to?) could tell me if after having the screen replaced or the whole ThinkPad replaced whether that made a difference or not.

-- Nathan

[NathanA]

So, who dares me to open up my ThinkPad and attempt to repair it myself?

-- Nathan

[JHEM]

So, who dares me to open up my ThinkPad and attempt to repair it myself?

I double dare ya'!

Regards,

James

[Leon]

triple.. it's very unlikely that they will know!

[Conmee]

I've seen about 2 dozen Flexview (both UXGA and SXGA+) screens, and they all have the right-hand side 'shadow' effect, or what seems to be a less intense backlighting to them--including a 15" SXGA+ that I returned because of a dead green pixel in the middle of the screen.

A few of the GM engineers I spoke with also noticed it, but indicated that during their normal course of work, that it wasn't a bother. Some folks looking at the SAME screen could see varying degrees of 'shadow', in other words, some thought/described it as more noticeable/severe than others. So it really is matter of preference/opinion/perception. There have even been a few cases where I've pointed out the darker area, only for someone to say, "Hey, there does seem to be a bit darker over there..." lol..

Personally, if it's a 'defect', I think it's fairly well uniform across the entire LCD production. I've seen ThinkPads direct from IBM and from IBM Business Partners, and they've all had the slight shadowing effect. In fact, EDS even made note of the darker area during their ThinkPad evaluation, something the Compaq nw8000 doesn't exhibit.

Bottom line: if you notice it now, you'll most likely notice it on any new ThinkPad you get/exchange (tho' I would recommend getting a new one just to be sure).

Daniel.

[NathanA]

Bottom line: if you notice it now, you'll most likely notice it on any new ThinkPad you get/exchange (tho' I would recommend getting a new one just to be sure).

That sucks. So it's an engineering defect then.

Would you say that across the range of LCDs that you evaluated that there were varying degrees of severity of the problem? That is, did some panels seem to have more or less shadow on the right-hand side of the screen than others?

Also, did my diagram above make any sense, and if so, did it mimic what you were seeing (with regard to the placement of the supposed "pressure point" and how different parts of the LCD are affected)? Or was every LCD a little different?

Thanks,

-- Nathan

[NathanA]

triple.. it's very unlikely that they will know!

Well, today I MIGHT have opened up my new ThinkPad or I might not have...it's hard to say. I also MAY just have disassembled the screen assembly to see if taking it out and re-mounting it would have fixed the problem. Yeah, I MIGHT have done that...who knows. Remember, this is not an admission of guilt by any means.

In any case, this whole hypothetical situation hypothetically did not help at all. The screen is still just as bad (from my point-of-view). Even if you flex the LCD itself while unencumbered, the image stays the same.

Argh!

I don't know anyone who owns a ThinkPad with FlexView, so it's quite impossible for me to be able to see and compare this display myself against other displays.

At this point, as frustrating as it is, I'm leaning more towards just living with it, probably because it's the easy way out. But if I do that, part of me will regret never having pestered IBM about it. The trick is that it may result in a better display, or it may result in a worse display. That, and I fear, based on past experiences with EasyServ, that it will suck up a great deal more of my time than has already been sucked up by my perfectionistic scrutiny of this computer to-date. Heh.

-- Nathan

[BillMorrow]

having seem many 14 inch and 15 inch flexview, i personally prefer the 15 inch flexview..

now, the to the issue at hand..

having done a few comparisons so as to select a "perfect" or as near perfect as possible, flexview display, i can say that there are a few categories of imperfections..
1. stuck ON pixels
2. dead pixels
(the above include any single sub-pixel)
3. backlight "wash" from around the edges
4. and the "faded" areas or "shadow effect"

these displays all MIGHT exhibit one or more of 1 or 2 above..
and
more or less of 3 or 4 above..
but some (a few) really ARE as close to perfect as can be had..

my personal Q1U might have a little of some of the above, but there are no # 1 and very little of 3 or 4..
and i THOUGH it might have one #2 but i can't find it just now..

so, the conclusion is that YES, virginia, there IS a santa clause and a perfect display..
but either one can be hard to find on occasion..

IRT self disassembly..
i have seen a few really off the wall determinations from ez serve with reference to customer damage..
so i would not give "them" any reason to deny service..

nathan, if you are going to buy onsite warranty, i suggest that you do so and then if the display bothers you, have a tech out to repair or replace it..

[NathanA]

It's done...I've pruchased the warranty today. Don't know when it goes into effect, but I'll give them a jingle after it does.

Interestingly, I remember someone on this forum mentioning that after their laptop shipped, the warranty lookup tool showed that they ended up getting 3 months extra on top of the 3-year depot warranty service for some reason. (I can't find that post anymore, either...hmm.) I remember looking mine up after reading this and seeing the same thing...my warranty went through March 2008, even though I purchased it in December. *shrug*

But just now, I checked it again, and it has been moved up to expire on January 9th, 2008. Weird. And it didn't reflect the fact that I had on-site service, so I'm guessing that it's not related to my warranty upgrade.

I'll let y'all know how it goes!

-- Nathan

[NathanA]

Hey, all,

Well, the service dude from IBM came out to my house last week to replace the screen. And the survey says...

...it looks almost exactly the same!

I watched him as he worked, so I know that he did, in fact, replace the screen. And after he had the new one in, I took a brief look at it before he reassembled everything, and at the time I thought that it looked better, but I now realize that I was looking at the screen from the right-hand side anyway, so my angle was such that I woudn't have been able to see the shadow.

But after he left and booted it up, I noticed right away that it was still there, and interestingly enough it was in the exact same place and was pretty much the exact same size!

So I think at this point I can safely say that this is just a characteristic of the FlexView/IPS LCDs, and *because* I now know that this is "normal," it is something I can live with (the screen is still quite a bit better as a whole than normal TFT LCDs despite this weird trait). I just wish that IBM and everyone could come to an agreement on this...if I had known that it was normal or had an opportunity to view another LCD, then I wouldn't have had to put them through giving me a brand-new LCD panel or waste any of my own time on this issue. I know Conmee responded with evidence to suggest that this is a normal trait of these LCDs, but no one else other than him seemed to know (in retrospect) what I was talking about. I even specifically asked the tech that I spoke to on the phone if this was "normal," and he said that it was not and that he'd be happy to schedule a service call for me. Maybe it was the way in which I described it to him; I dunno. I had also hoped that the on-site gentleman who came by the house would have been able to look at my screen and tell me what he thought, but his attitude was just more along the lines of "well, let's replace it and see what happens!"

Oh well.

I did notice that there is a spot on the left-hand side of my new screen where there is a fair amount of backlight leakage coming in (if I press down on the edge of the LCD bezel where I see the spot, it disappears, and if I ever-so-slightly flex the panel as a whole while the background is black, I can see the *whole* panel get lighter, which is something that my previous panel did not do), which makes me wonder if there is a spot in the panel where the mounting isn't secure or where something didn't get crimped down right during manufacture. HOWEVER, this new panel also has ZERO faulty pixels (my first one had a rather-unnoticeable and unbothersome blue one). I don't think it's worth the trouble to go through another screen replacement or to get a replacement laptop (today is my last day to return it anyway, I think), so I'm planning to keep the unit as-is. In the future, if the backlighting gets worse or something comes undone because the new panel was not constructed right, I'll deal with it then; in the meantime, it's completely usable.

So, in conclusion, for anybody who happens to run across this post while looking for information on their new FlexView LCD because they noticed a shadow on the right-side, the answer is YES: it IS normal. It's too bad that it took a service call and a brand-new LCD to figure this out, but now we know. Live with it or swap it for a 14" non-FlexView model, but don't waste time worrying about it or replacing the LCD because it won't change a thing.

-- Nathan

[dvorak]

I am now in the same point as you in my mind, I have accepted it.

I've gotten mine also replaced and have looked at other Thinkpad displays, they all exhibit from the gradient phenomenon.
I can understand it being an engineering-problem, but I will return to IBM once a better technology is revealed and hopefully before my warranty runs out to get mine replaced. Although it does not bother while doing casual work, it still stops me from doing graphics-related work on the move, for which the Thinkpad (atleast p series) seems to be also oriented.

Even though I'm not behind a FlexView screen, I would think that at a 90degree angle color uniformity should be achieved, so I think that they should replace screens under warranty if it bothers the customer.
Most of the people that do general work are not even aware of this problem, others, who concentrate on graphics, probably have already noticed this and are now bound to use external monitors. I'm not expecting a bright and wide-angle screen, but color consistency while looking straight at it should be possible.

Also, I haven't noticed any statement on IBM's website that says the displays encounter color-inconsistency and are not even, in general I don't find it being as small as the issue with the flexing keyboards/palmrest. They advertise the p-series to be certified for graphics-intensive workstation applications, I would presume such work needs atleast constant display brightness.

So far, the only solution seems to be waiting.

[Conmee]

I tried to tell ya, Nathan... lol

Daniel.

[Matt_]

Well, this was a very interesting read.

I do not know if what I am seeing is what NathanA is experiencing, but it sounds close.

I love everything about this 2373-CWU T42 laptop with the Flexview 15" sxga+ screen.

But a very tiny nitpick that I have is that there are some nights that, while I am seated in what I think is smack-dab in front of the middle of the screen, the corner of my right eye sees what appears to be a shadowing up and down along the screen in the space from the edge of the screen to a point ~ 1/2" away from the screen.

And yet when I scoot my body over to the far right of the screen, the shadow seems to disappear.
And then there are some nights that I don't perceive any differences at all.

It seems like this (at least what I am experiencing) is a viewing-angle related situation. This screen is still far superior viewing angle-wise and brightness-wise than the Dell 8600 that I had had for a short time.

The only other slight nitpick is that the far lower-right corner right around the letters "PM" of the time is a darker-blue than the color of the rest of the system tray. But when I bring my face down closer for a closer examination, I have wondered if this is due not to an imperfection but to the colors that the Microsoft programmers picked for that portion of the system tray.

Edit:
Also, if you go to this thread "15" FLEXVIEW For Gaming" http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=569
and scroll down to the post from Conmee dated Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:36 pm there is a lot of detailed information about the FlexView screen and the manufacturer ID Tech / IDTech .

[dr_st]

The only other slight nitpick is that the far lower-right corner right around the letters "PM" of the time is a darker-blue than the color of the rest of the system tray. But when I bring my face down closer for a closer examination, I have wondered if this is due not to an imperfection but to the colors that the Microsoft programmers picked for that portion of the system tray.

The screen is darker at both bottom edges. It's a fact (although may not be present on all panels). I see it too - the right side of the clock in the system tray and the left side of the start button are of darker shade of gray than the rest of the taskbar. Nothing bothersome, though.

[dgoeg]

Very interesting.
I noticed exactly the same problems.

[Jason986]

I am new here but I had a comment on this topic.

My new T43, model 2668-BJU, arrived yesterday with the 15" SXGA+ Flexview display. Luckily I have no dead pixels or issues with one large portion of the screen being darker than the rest. However, the bottom corners on mine are darker than the rest of the panel.

After a little hunting on IBM's site, I've discovered that they are now using two manufacturers for the 15" SXGA+ Flexview LCD in the T43 (the T40-42 only had one display manufacturer for this panel). The link to the article is below:
Document id: MIGR-58482

The manufacturers are ID Tech and LG (where ID Tech made the 15" SXGA+ panels for the T40-42 exclusively).
The FRU for the ID Tech panel is 92P6680.
The FRU for the LG panel is 92P6761.

I have the LG panel and am curious to know which one the rest of you have. I have also noticed a light "sparkling" on mine when white is the predominant color on screen. This is a bit annoying and I am wondering if I just have a bad panel (although I thought LG in general is/was known for this "sparkle" effect) or if the ID Tech one acts the same way.

[dr_st]

I have the LG panel and am curious to know which one the rest of you have. I have also noticed a light "sparkling" on mine when white is the predominant color on screen. This is a bit annoying and I am wondering if I just have a bad panel (although I thought LG in general is/was known for this "sparkle" effect) or if the ID Tech one acts the same way.

I have a T42 15" Flexview with the LG panel (even though Lenovo's site does not list them as manufacturers for the T42). As I said, the darkened corners are there. You don't have a bad panel.