Help purchasing decision (T60 vs T42p)

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mbugueiro · #1 Post by **mbugueiro** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:48 am

I hope you can help in this decision, I already have a T41 (standard) and I am quite happy with the thin classical design and performance (I work with several statistical software without problem). Now I have the opportunity to buy a better laptop. But, for the same price ( US$840) I must to choose between a T60 or T42p, the specifications are:

T60: Intel Core 2 Duo 1,83 GHz 2048 MB RAM, 14.1" TFT 1024 x 768 (Intel 950), 60 GB with 5400 rpm, Win XP Prof

T42p: Intel Centrino 2,0 GHz 1024 MB RAM, 14.1" TFT 1400 x 1050 ATI Fire GL T2 128 MB, W-LAN abg Bluetooth Gigabit LAN, 120 GB mit 5400 rpm (new), Win XP Prof

The hard drive capacity is not an issue because I already have an external one, I don't know if to have Bluetooth is important (because I never used it). But I think that design (T60 looks more heavy ), screen resolution and upgrade capacity (moving forward with more memory, dvd burner, and so on) can be important points. I don't know about technical matters like the difference between Intel centrino and Intel core duo, performance, keyboard quality, and screen (1400 x 1050 and 1024 x 768 ). In addition, I would like to run windows vista on it.

Would be worth if someone can help.

Thank you in advance,
Mauricio Bugueiro

#2 Post by **Harryc** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:55 am

If your goal is to run Vista, then the T60 is the right choice. I can't beleive the prices you guys have to pay. I think I am coming there with a truckload of T42's

.

sco1984 · #3 Post by **sco1984** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:58 am

mbugueiro wrote:I hope you can help in this decision, I already have a T41 (standard) and I am quite happy with the thin classical design and performance (I work with several statistical software without problem). Now I have the opportunity to buy a better laptop. But, for the same price ( US$840) I must to choose

Hello there,

I am T60 1953-DAU user.
I bought refurnished T60 from Amazon in December 2007.
Luckily it was hardly 11 months used.
I bought for around 650 US$
Performance is good of my T60 which has Dual Core 1.66 GHz processor. Total ram I have is 1.5 GB, last week upgraded hdd to 160 gb and installed Vista Ultimate.

Laptop doesnt heat when running Vista on it.
My T60 is 15"
I choose 15" because I also watch movies on it and I use it as a TV also.

Core 2 Duo is always better than normal Centrino processor.
So go for T60

Regards,
Amey.

mikeshoup · #4 Post by **mikeshoup** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:00 am

For vista, the T60 is going to be a better and faster choice.

DarkScythe · #5 Post by **DarkScythe** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:23 am

I loved my T42 before it died..

Anyway, I don't know what sort of statistical software you run, but if it is multithreaded, I'd say go for the T60. Core2Duo is much better than the Centrino in that regard since it is essentially 2 CPUs packed together, and will run multithreaded applications much better/faster than the Centrino. If not though, then the speed boost of the Centrino may run it better, but I doubt by much.

RAM and HD's are easily upgradeable so it shouldn't affect your decision unless you're not allowed to upgrade it. One caveat though, I believe the T42's used DDR1 memory which has been obsolete for some time and is more expensive than DDR2 which is currently at rock bottom pricing (for desktops anyway) which the T60 uses.

The only other thing that I can see to be a factor is the graphics. I'm not sure how those GPUs compare with each other. The resolution is a personal choice. I like the 1400x1050 resolution on a 15" formfactor, not sure how it looks on a 14.1". Some people prefer the lower resolution for larger text, etc. If you really wanted to change it, there are ways to swap LCD panels though.

All in all, I'd say the T60 would be a better buy. Just my opinion, of course.

#6 Post by **underclocker** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:57 am

Top of the line T42 or entry level T60, indeed, that is the question.

In the U.S., they would sell for similar prices, too, maybe $450 each.

I think the speed would be roughly equivalent for both CPU intensive and GPU intensive tasks.

The only real shortcoming of the T42p is the potential problem with the GPU. If you know it's in fine condition and you can treat it well - no lifting by one hand while it is on - then the T42p should last a while. The T60 is not prone to GPU issues, especially the Intel GPU models. The T42p will also run hot when pushed.

If you prefer high resolution, then I'd go with the T42p. If you like XGA, the T60 will work.

My only other suggestion would be to have someone from the U.S. bring you a laptop - or come for a visit. For $840, you have a selection of brand new ThinkPads that will blow either away and have a warranty.

P.S. The T42p and T60 will be nearly identical in weight and size, just over 5 lbs. (or close to 5.5 lbs. with extended batteries).

Temetka · #7 Post by **Temetka** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:33 pm

As a former T41p and T42 owner all I can say is that I love the sheer speed of my T60. Right now it has 1.5GB of RAM and the stock 5400RPM HD with Intel 950 graphics.

Even when I went stupid crazy and maxed the heck out of my old T41p, it couldn't hold a candle to the T60. I ran Vista Ultimate on the T41p and also on my current T60 and on the T60 there is no fan noise at all. Even if I am playing WoW, it's still far, far quieter than my T41p could have dreamed of.

Sure I have an XGA LCD but that will be rectified soon.

Go for the T60, minus the LCD (which can be changed out) you wont regret it at all IMO.

DarkScythe · #8 Post by **DarkScythe** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:32 pm

underclocker wrote:I think the speed would be roughly equivalent for both CPU intensive and GPU intensive tasks.

I apologize, but I respectfully disagree.

The Centrino is a single core processor for the T42 series, whereas the T60 runs a Core2Duo dual core processor with a massively improved core architecture. In any application that is multithreaded, it will take advantage of as many cores as it is written to accomodate, and will generally run quite a bit faster because you have 2 CPUs working on it as opposed to a single one.

If the application, however, is NOT multithreaded, then only load-balancing occurs and it will effectively only utilize one CPU anyway, regardless of how many are present, and at that point, pure clockspeed will win out.

This is the same argument used when deciding between going dual core or quad core in desktops - most games do not utilize all the cores so the higher clocked dual core will run them faster than the slower clocked quad core. However, when the main use is not for gaming, and more for running programs that are multithreaded, a quad core will certainly run them much faster than the dual core, despite the lower clock speed simply because it has twice as many "CPUs" working on it.

As far as the GPU performance goes, onboard is terribly crappy, but if you're not going to game with it, it shouldn't matter too much.
I pulled up this handy chart I seem to refer to a lot since it has a really large list for comparison.
NotebookCheck's GPU Benchmark List

Glancing at the earliest version of 3dmark used for both GPUs, the FireGL runs about twice as fast as the Intel 950. I suppose that's why one was a top-of-the-line and one's an entry-level.

Short of those performance differences though, I certainly agree with all your other points.

#9 Post by **underclocker** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:31 pm

It's certainly OK to disagree with me (or anyone else) with a good argument or facts, that's what makes the forum fun

I actually think we agree quite a bit though. First of all, I'll say that my actual experience is owning these machines, but never actually benchmarking them.

It does seem that a computer with a 2.0 Pentium M and ATI Fire GL T2 should be a better performer than a 1.83 Core Duo with Intel 950 video for some (most?) applications, however, in the real world, my experience suggested they felt about the same.

Now I don't use "statistical software" like the OP (although he stated it ran well on a T41), but for general office and home tasks, I've often felt that the machines with built-in video (Intel) were quite snappy and often seemed quicker than the ATI-based counterparts. I know a T42 should feel faster than an R51 with Intel GPU, but that's just not my experience.

Finally, the reason I use the term "roughly equivalent" is because the T42 and T60 are separated by two generations. These base T60's feel fast! It's not just the CPU and GPU, it's the bus, memory, hard disk, etc.

It would be nice if someone benchmarked the two.

ArtShapiro · #10 Post by **ArtShapiro** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:47 pm

Guess I'll throw in the contrarian view, speaking as one who generally doesn't have massive processing demands, making the CPU issue fairly unimportant.

I will opine that the 1024 x 768 resolution is mediocre at best. It just doesn't show enough of web pages or documents. The SXGA+ resolution is wonderful in the amount of stuff that fits on the screen.

I'd go with the T4x without hesitation.

Art

Temetka · #11 Post by **Temetka** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:07 pm

While I would generally agree with the above poster about screen size, I will not for the following reason:

Whereas a T60 can be upgraded to an SXGA+ IPS LCD, the T42 cannot be upgraded to a dual core setup. It may win in the GPU department but overall the T60 wins hands down.

I have owned a desked out T41p, and a T42 before this T60 and I can tell you that the T60 feels far, far more responsive. Mind you I am running Vista which supposedly uses more resources than XP, but on this machine it is very responsive.

I can game better on this card than I could with the Radeon in my T42. My T41p had a 128MB FireGL card and I think that while the card is faster, the two should bench the same simply because the T60 is dual core and has more advanced everything except the video.

To sum up: I'd get the T60 and upgrade the LCD. Which is exactly the machine I own now. I will be purchasing the IPS SXGA+ LCD as soon as my funding permits.

ajkula66 · #12 Post by **ajkula66** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:20 pm

My pick would be T42p, as long as I knew where it was coming from, in the respect that it had been properly maintained, and not abused, to avoid any possible GPU issues.

T4x is pretty much (my opinion) the pinnacle of laptop design, being pretty and portable, yet classy. T6x is downright ugly-once again, my view only.

As for CPU, most people will never need two cores-I know I don't, not for daily use on a regular basis. This is assuming one sticks with XP-Vista does run better on CD and especially C2D machines. GPU and resolution aspects of the whole thing tip the scales once again towards T42p vs. T60...

My $0.02 only...

sarbin · #13 Post by **sarbin** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:30 pm

^^^
what aspect(s) of the t6x don't you like, George?
i've been keeping an eye out for a pristine t60p/15" ips uxga model for a while now.

thx.

ajkula66 · #14 Post by **ajkula66** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:37 pm

Don't want to hijack the thread, so check your PM in a bit...

dr_st · #15 Post by **dr_st** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:59 am

ajkula66 wrote:Don't want to hijack the thread, so check your PM in a bit...

Actually, I think it might be nice to develop a mini-discussion on this, inside this thread, even if it is somewhat sidetracking.

For one, it is something that Mauricio might want to factor into the decision. Furthermore, it may be a good reference for future dilemmas such as this one.

However, if you find it too much offtopic, I respect your decision. In which case, I'd like to ask for you to send me a PM as well, and we might have our own discussion.

Now to get back to the thread:

My personal opinion on this, is similar to what was mentioned here - the high resolution gives the T42p a definite advantage. I agree that you can upgrade the LCD, but if one is already willing to go down that road, one might as well just invest some more to find a T60 that is configured with SXGA+ to begin with.

In the GPU department, the FireGL will beat the GMA950 easily in terms of performance, at the cost of significant battery life, so one should ask whether he/she needs this additional performance (I'd say "no", unless one is a gamer).

One thing to consider is that the T60 does not have S-Video out, which makes it hard to connect to a standard TV, and simple $3 VGA-SVIDEO adapters don't work with the GMA950 GPUs (might work with the ATi cards).

Lastly, Temetka, you are a little wrong - we are discussing 14" models here, so while you can upgrade the LCD to SXGA+, you cannot upgrade it to IPS (such panels simply don't exist).

YeOldeStonecat · #16 Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:14 am

mbugueiro wrote:I hope you can help in this decision, I already have a T41 (standard) and I am quite happy with the thin classical design and performance (I work with several statistical software without problem). Now I have the opportunity to buy a better laptop. But, for the same price ( US$840) I must to choose between a T60 or T42p, the specifications are:

Mauricio....just a little over a month ago, I was in the same boat as you....I felt it was time to retire my aging T41 14", and I searched and searched for a newer model which would give me a similar portable thin chassis that I loved on my T41 14".

I didn't like the W screens and fat chassis of the newer T61 models, and most of the T60 models. But through research on this boards, in some threads, I found out about a nice T60p 14.1" model out there.

2007 87U
T60p
2.16 C2D
14.1" sxga+ tft
ATI FireGL Mobile 256
100 gig SATA 7,200rpm

Based on the mention of a few experienced members of the boards here, the 2007 87U model is rather desired.

I searched and searched fleabay..finally stumbled across one for sale from a factory refurb reseller, just under 700 bucks. I stuffed it with a pair of 2 gig sticks of RAM (I know the t60 only works with 3...but good to have matching pairs IMO, and RAM is so cheap), it runs Vista like a champ, dual booted with openSUSE too.

I'm very pleased with it as a good small portable replacement for my T41, quite similar thin small chassis..only drawback is the battery pack which sticks out the back...but that have an advantage....helps protect the AC adapter plug from being bumped as easily.

#17 Post by **Harryc** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:30 am

YeOldeStonecat, you can get a smaller 6 cell battery for your T60P that does not stick out the back. Take a look around for FRU 92P1139, 40Y6799, others ...
While my taste in T60's centers around 15" flexview machines, I am familiar with your model and it is a nice one for portable 4:3 aspect ratio LCD fans ...

#18 Post by **underclocker** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:22 am

ajkula66 wrote:T4x is pretty much (my opinion) the pinnacle of laptop design, being pretty and portable, yet classy.

I agree with George on this, particularly for the 14" models.

However, I feel that the 15" T4x models weren't as attractively designed as the 14" models. I also feel that the 15" T60's look better than the 14" T60's, and much closer in looks to the 15" T4x models.

What I'm trying to say, is the 15" T4x and T6x models look very, very similar, neither as nice as a 14" T4x, but both look nicer than a 14" T6x. Plus either high resolution 15" LCD in the T60 is FlexView. Bottom line, that's what I drive.

The OP should hold out for one, too! Problem solved.

YeOldeStonecat · #19 Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:33 pm

Harryc wrote:YeOldeStonecat, you can get a smaller 6 cell battery for your T60P that does not stick out the back. Take a look around for FRU 92P1139, 40Y6799, others ...
While my taste in T60's centers around 15" flexview machines, I am familiar with your model and it is a nice one for portable 4:3 aspect ratio LCD fans ...

I thank you kindly for the note HarryC....I'll mark those down and when it comes time to replace this one...I'll be set.

Yeah in my search for a T60....I took a lot of notes (and posts) in the other T60vT61 thread that bounces around the first couple of pages of this forum, and I actually came across a flexview model at a clients, got to see what it was about in real life. Certainly nice looking. It was an odd model I'd not seen before, I want to recall R40 or R41..maybe with a P? Or maybe R50 or R51? It had the same 256 meg ATI FireGL as mine. Bit of a thicker "sloped" chassis though.

Temetka · #20 Post by **Temetka** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:51 pm

dr_st wrote:In the GPU department, the FireGL will beat the GMA950 easily in terms of performance, at the cost of significant battery life, so one should ask whether he/she needs this additional performance (I'd say "no", unless one is a gamer).

Lastly, Temetka, you are a little wrong - we are discussing 14" models here, so while you can upgrade the LCD to SXGA+, you cannot upgrade it to IPS (such panels simply don't exist).

You will note that I mentioned the FireGL is a better GPU. That being said my GMA950 runs WoW, Deus EX: GOTY Edition, HL2 and others just fine.

Finally regarding the LCD:

<sticks tongue out>
thhbbpt!
</sticks tongue out>

My bad, I forgot about that. Still the LCD can be upgraded to SXGA+ or UXGA.

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