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Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

T60/T61 Series
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Johan
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Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#1 Post by Johan » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:31 pm

To start off this thread in a very American way, let me put it like this: I have a dream! :-)

… and the dream is to build the (in my opinion) currently best possible ThinkPad! Naturally ”best” should be seen from my perspective, and explained from the intended use of this ultimate ThinkPad, so here goes: Like many other users I am very pleased with the 4:3 format 15” UXGA FlexView/IPS LCD’s, so this is a ”must”. Next, I will have to admit that I am very picky about noise, so I am dreaming about having an as-much-as-possible totally silent (FlexView!) ThinkPad; silent while being used for non-CPU-intensive tasks (such as in particular browsing the internet, mailing, writing). If it is possible to find a sufficiently low-power CPU/GPU combination which would not trigger the fan to go ”on” while only being lightly used, that’s what I dream of! I am quite familiar with the ”Notebook Hardware Control” program, and if that can help reduce power consumption on my dream-ThinkPad, then very welcome! So, those two issues are actually the most important ones; a 15” UXGA FlexView and no-noise! Third; I would like to own a ThinkPad which I don’t need to fear one day might start having some ”loose GPU” issue; a very robust ThinkPad which I can expect that will work for years (to the extent such a hope is possible; of course any component may fail, but if starting off using the most robust and the most reliable parts, then what more can you do?). I should add that I don't expect to run Vista (unless I some day will have to), so I am looking for a relatively fast, very silent XP "T601(p)". Other requirements: I would like a fingerprint reader, and I don’t need wireless-N (I guess… because the T60 LCD looks so ugly with the “N”-antenna at the right side!).

Summarizing all of the above, ”my dream” therefore was fueled a good bit especially by the thread Best of both worlds, the other way around? T61 with FlexView? where casperkid reported how he had built a 15” UXGA FlexView/IPS ThinkPad using (as far as I understand) a complete T60 but had swapped the (T60) motherboard to a T61 motherboard. The thread IBM T61p UXGA FlexView discusses the same topic – further pouring gasoline on the fire! :wink:

Because of these top-notch ThinkPad’ders, I have begun collecting parts for a similar laptop: A T60-frame with a T61(p) motherboard. What I however don’t know (and kindly ask for help to find out!) is what exact motherboards are usable in this project? Also, I would very much appreciate any recommendations about what GPU and CPU is suggested, and whether there are different T60 fans with different noise characteristics?

The parts I already have are the following: A 15” UXGA FlexView panel (BOE-Hydis 13N7076), a T60 DVD-RW and a 100 GB/7200 rpm SATA HDD – that’s all! The remaining parts are what are still needed… I am lurking around on eBay after T61(p) motherboards, CPU's and I am also watching out for a 15" T60 in MINT condition (except for the LCD, the motherboard and the keyboard - as I will eventually swap the latter with a Danish keyboard). Ultimately, I dream of swapping the mechanical HDD with a (SATA) SDD, but that's a future upgrade - more to dream of!

Questions:

1. What T61 or T61p motherboards are usable and recommended in this project? This question may already have been answered in the thread:
[url=http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=51632][color=blue][u]IBM T61p UXGA FlexView[/color][/u][/url] where, in the post of Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:04 am, casperkid wrote:14'' SXGA+ T61's mobo and 15'' UXGA T60's are identical. All ports on the left-hand side are sticked on the mobo. Others (USB, fan, power, wireless, modem, shock sensor) are connected to the mobo via cables.
... but is this the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth? If I have a complete 15" T60 (everything incl.!), and if then grab a 14.1" T61/p motherboard, will I then need any other parts to get the "T601" up and running??

The list of applicable (I guess?) T61/p motherboards (the 14.1" ones) is found at System service parts - ThinkPad T61, T61p 14.1inch standard screen – is this correct that these are the ones I need to look out for? Specifications for T61/p’s can be found in the TAbook (with the official title: ”Personal Systems Reference, Lenovo ThinkPad Notebooks, September 2008 - Version 346”) where the various CPU and GPU options are easily seen.

2. Should I go for integrated or discrete graphics? I don't expect to use this laptop for any especially GPU-demanding applications, but since this is supposed to be the ultimate ThinkPad, it would be nice to have sufficient GPU power if some day... If, however, a discrete GPU would ruin the no-noise requirement (?), then integrated graphics is the way to go. Recommendations?

3. Will all T61/p motherboards (integrated and discrete) actually drive an internal UXGA LCD? Very important issue! :wink:

4. Should I avoid T61/p motherboards with nVIDIA GPU’s? Reports are that nVIDIA has had significant troubles with some batches – see e.g. Laptops With Certain NVidia Chips Failing and NVIDIA problems/impending recall?. Better/more safe to go for Intel GPU’s?? Remember that if building such a ”homemade” ThinkPad as discussed here, there’s going to be absolutely zero IBM or Lenovo warranty!

5. Which of the T60/p fans are the quietest one? According to the System service parts - ThinkPad T60, T60p there are five different fans: 41V9931 (for integrated GPU), 41W6406 (for integrated GPU), 41V9932 (for discrete GPU) and finally 41W6407 (for discrete GPU). Which one is the absolutely quietest one??

6. Will all of the T60 fans be usable with all T61/p motherboards/CPU's? I assume that a ”discrete GPU T61” will work with a ”discrete GPU T60 fan” and vice versa that an integrated T61 GPU will be OK with an integrated T60 fan – correct? Also: Will a “T60 nVIDIA fan” work for a T61 nVIDIA GPU??

7. What CPU is suggested? (”if money is not an issue”). Again, low-noise (/low-power!) is a primary requirement, but again it would be nice if the CPU still had "muscles" for demanding applications. The 14.1” T61/p’s listed in System service parts - ThinkPad T61, T61p 14.1inch standard screen uses T7100 (1.8 GHz), T7300 (2.0 GHz), T7500 (2.2 GHz) and T7700 (2.4 GHz). Detailed specifications for these processors are found in Personal Systems Reference Intel PC Processors, September 2008 - Version 346 (page 7 of 21). All these are listed as Socket P Core 2 Duo’s and are being of the type “35 W Thermal Design Power”.

8. Will a newer, lower-power CPU be usable in a T61/p motherboard? What I am thinking is whether the newest “25 W Thermal Design Power” Penryn's P8400/P8600/P9500 (see page 8 of 21 in the above-mentioned reference) is usable? I realize that these “P”-Penryn’s uses a 1066 MHz FSB, but will they work in a 800 MHz FSB T61/p motherboard? Reason for asking is the following:
In the thread [url=http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=59815][color=blue][u]thermal sensing error when upgrading CPU[/color][/u][/url], in the post of Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:04 am, Rambler76 wrote:The ability to run a Penryn-based T8xxx or T9xxx CPU on your T61/p will depend on your motherboard and doesn't have anything to do with the BIOS. To start go to the IBM warranty page here http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/si...LOOK-WARNTY#sw and enter your type and serial number. You'll then get a page detailing each component in your system with a FRU number. Scroll down and look for 'SYSTEM PLANAR'. Mine states 42W7652 as the FRU.

From my reviews of what people have got to work on their systems and the maintenance manual I've concluded the following:

Merom-based T7xxx CPU's will work on the following motherboards:

- 42W7651,
- 42W7652,
- 42W7653, and
- 42W7875.

Penryn-based T8xxx and T9xxx CPU's will work on the following motherboards:

- 42W7876, and
- 42W7877.
... but in addition to the actual motherboard P/N or FRU, is there perhaps also some revision-code to check?? The above are all 35 W Penryn’s, so the question is: Will 25 W Penryn’s (P8400/P8600/P9500) work in any T61/p motherboard?? [Note: I am not quite sure if the socket of the P8400/P8600/P9500 is the same as of the T7xxx/T8xxx/T9xxx?].

All the HMM’s for various ThinkPad’s can be found at Hardware Maintenance Manual index and the Service parts list index – ThinkPad may be used to easily identify various FRU’s (such as e.g. motherboards).

Many questions, I admit – but recall that this is my dream ThinkPad so some serious preparation is of course necessary! Thanks very much in advance for any suggestions and advices as how to move on with this… ultimate... ThinkPad... dream…! :wink:

Johan
IBM T42p's (2373-Q1U & -Q2U): 2.1 GHz, 15" UXGA FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 128 MB FireGL T2, 128 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate
IBM T42 (2373-N1G): 1.8 GHz, 15" SXGA+ FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 64 MB Radeon 9600, 64 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mo

#2 Post by agarza » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:10 pm

Questions:

1. I'd say look in the thread you referred to, and based on the processor of your liking you should get the corresponding motherboard. If I'm correct new Penryns (T8100, T8300, T9300, T9500) have a different motherboard than the older 65nm C2D processors T61 had in the first place.

2. Integrated definitely. Going with the NVS140 present on the T61 you will end up with a GPU idling temp of about 55-60C. I'd strongly recommend the GMA X3100. (If you recall correctly Johan we had a discussion over e-mail sometime ago and told you about my will to upgrade my T42p to a T61, in which I'm writing on right now).

3. Don't know for sure

4. Yes, avoid NVIDIA GPUs if you want cool and quiet Thinkpad

5. N/A

6. N/A

7. I strongly recommend getting a 45nm processor Penryn. I'm SURE new Montevina Penryns 1006MHz FSB would definitely not work on a T61 motherboard.

8. Don't think so.
Current
T440p:
Core i7-4710MQ|16GB RAM|Intel 200GB SSD| 14.1" AUO IPS FHD|Win 7 Pro|T450 Trackpad|Backlit keyboard|2nd Caddy

T460p:
Core i5-6300HQ|16GB RAM|lPNY 256GB SSD| 14.1" Panasonic IPS WQHD|Win 7 Pro
Past: T420 HD+, X61s XGA, T61 14" SXGA+, T42p 14.1 SXGA+, T30, A22e

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#3 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:02 pm

Knowing your preferences at least to a certain degree, I can tell you this much:

a) You will not be happy with any T61p board running a 7xxx series CPU, they are way too hot, and a huge part of that is GPU. A WUXGA T61p that I've owned a while ago was by far the hottest-running ThinkPad I've ever had, and you know how much I like T43/p units that you really don't care for because of heat/noise...well, this one was worse by many, many margins. Not to mention the fact that I'd stay away from any planar with nVidia GPU for a while...

b) This leads us to Intel integrated graphics, far more reliable and quiet....but here's the question: is that really going to be the "ultimate" FlexView? And, I, for one, don't know if it will work at all. I've heard "it should" a thousand times, but have yet to hear "yes, I've done it, it works." from anyone. When it comes to IBM/Lenovo, "should work" is just not good enough. Because SXGA+ LCDs should work on Intel-powered T43s in theory, yet everyone who tried installing them had ran into a cement wall...including some very knowledgeable people on this forum.

c) Personally, I'd get a nice T60p and throw in a stronger CPU. Yes, it's been done quite a few times and is not such a great achievement, but is a known good combination. If you can tolerate the ugliness of a T60p next to your T42/p batch, that is... :lol:

I wish you the very best of luck in your noble quest, my friend.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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#4 Post by basketb » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:51 pm

Whoa, sounds like a nice project. Good luck and keep us updated.

I don't have much input. Just a few thoughts (very random):
- My T61p - 15.4" WUXGA/T9300/FX570 - runs fairly cool for everyday tasks (< 55 °C, often < 50 °C - both CPU and GPU) and even when the fan kicks in it is not noticeable as long as it stays under 3000 RPM (but it is certainly very subjective what noticeable means when it comes to fans).
- If you use a T61 motherboard, why would you want to use a T60 fan? Wouldn't a T61 fan be the better/more logical choice?
- I'd probably go with an integrated graphics motherboard for starters and if it doesn't work out for whatever (performance) reasons get one with the nVidia chip later.
- Too bad a R/T 400/500 motherboard won't fit. Switchable graphics and the latest CPU/RAM technologies would just be awesome for your project.

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#5 Post by dr_st » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:19 am

My opinion:

Stay away from T61 and T61 parts. The Santa Rosa platform is worse than Napa in terms of stability and doesn't offer any real performance advantages.

Furthermore, the T61 had several minor things crippled compared to a T60 (stereo mix option, also the volume control keys that now work through a driver and not directly through the BIOS, and a few other).

If the Montevina boards fit a T60 chassis, it would be cool, but they don't.

I would suggest to take a basic T60 mobo with integrated GMA950 GPU, pop-in a T7600 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, and use the other parts you already have. And you will have the ultimate machine. :)

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#6 Post by Pyramid builder » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:46 pm

I bought myself a brand new Flexview T60 with dedicated GPU a week ago and I have same sort of plans as you do except I'll stick to the original configuration for some time, since it has warranty, no time atm etc. Going to stick with T60 till they start producing some screens comparable to IPS, OLED perhaps. T61 motherboard upgrade would be great because it raises the memory limit from 3GB to 8GB. At least from my own experience memory is by far the component that needs most upgrading as software develops (for non demanding tasks/programs). This is my first notebook and some of the first things I noticed were the heat because desktop keyboard didn't produce any, and secondly the fan because I had an image that notebooks were nearly inaudible. No heat really if the fan is on and fan is quiet (3000rpm), but it would be even better if this was completely silent when light tasking. HDD vibration on my T60 makes as much noise as fan at 3000RPM, needs to get replaced with SSD.

2. I think discrete GPU would ruin the idea of silent laptop even if underclocked and used lightly. I don't think T61 had abnormally high GPU temps like first T60's, but it will still be the component that determines the fan speed unless CPU is stressed. GPU heat will probably add to your CPU temp too. In my T60 CPU and GPU temp literally follow each other (when I do CPU stress test, GPU temp will go 'CPU temp minus 1' and vice versa).

7. P-series and T-series CPU's (at least the ones on T61's) all have P-socket, but I doubt P-series CPU's will work (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=286684). I thought about putting L-series CPU (LV 17W, up to 1,8GHz, used in X61 Thinkpads) to motherboard. They are sold only with Micro-FCBGA soldering interface, which is a problem, but I have read about BGA to PGA/socket adapters. I'm currently trying to find out if these adapters do or will exist for this variation.

I don't know if completely fanless is possible without the feeling of heat (at >50C CPU/GPU I start noticing heat above them). Too bad there doesn't seem to be a way to control the fan completely and lower it to 1000-2000 RPM.

After purchasing my T60 I also found out they have made R61 with 15" 4:3 screen. This obviously made me think R61 with Flexview, even though T60 has nicer casing. Just a thought.

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#7 Post by dr_st » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:57 am

Pyramid builder wrote:After purchasing my T60 I also found out they have made R61 with 15" 4:3 screen.
They have?

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#8 Post by Harryc » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:59 am

Pyramid builder wrote: ... they have made R61 with 15" 4:3 screen.
This never happened.
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitu ... tabook.pdf

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#9 Post by Pyramid builder » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:17 am

Harryc wrote:
Pyramid builder wrote: ... they have made R61 with 15" 4:3 screen.
This never happened.
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitu ... tabook.pdf
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-67707
It seems like those were released only in Europe. Model numbers are 8943 and 8944.

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#10 Post by Harryc » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:25 am

Go figure. I thought the Tabook had all models.
Here's one online. That is a flexview LCD by the way. These would be good models to look for in Europe.

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#11 Post by Troels » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:50 pm

Harryc wrote:Go figure. I thought the Tabook had all models.
Here's one online. That is a flexview LCD by the way. These would be good models to look for in Europe.
Hate to say it, but it is the same TN SXGA+ 15" as found on the R52 and R60 :(

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#12 Post by Harryc » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:53 pm

Oh well. At least it is an option for a 4:3 LCD on a recent model for Europeans.

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#13 Post by Crunch » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:30 pm

Johan,

Interesting project. I had the same idea a while back. What I ended up doing is buying a T60p because I wanted UXGA, and I ended up with the screen you have. The AFFS IPS screen. It's noticeably brighter and better with full 180 degree wide viewing angle, so you got the best IPS screen there is.

In addition, I put in the strongest CPU that the T60/p series' motherboard will take. The T7600 Core 2 Duo 2.33GHz w/4MB of L2 cache, which is plenty fast, and it's a 64-bit processor, which I had wanted. Stuff 3GB of RAM in it, and I don't know why you don't like 802.11n. It's awesome!! I swapped the Intel 3945ABG out for an Atheros AR5008X, and used the WWAN antenna as the third antenna. The latest driver that came out for it made a big difference, in case you want to reconsider on that.

Last but certainly not least, I just put in the brand new Intel X25-M 80GB SSD (SATA) drive. It's a beautiful little monster, and since you're so concerned about noise. It doesn't generate ANY noise whatsoever (no moving parts), and it doesn't get as hot as regular hard drives.

Your project sounds fun and exciting. I won't need a newer system for years really, so as I skipped over the T61/p series, it looks like I'll wait for the i7 CPU's to come out, and see about upgrading my baddest, fastest, most beautiful Thinkpad I've ever had the pleasure of owning and working with every day, including CPU-wise, GPU-wise, wireless-N, and now the SSD.

One piece of advice: Don't let anyone dissuade you from realizing what you want to achieve. Sounds dramatic. But I mean it.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress of your "dream machine". ;)
15-inch Core 2 Duo ThinkPad T60p | Ivy-Bridge (Late-2012) Mac mini w/ quad Core i7-3615QM 2.3GHz, 16GB DDR3-1600MHz RAM, 240GB+180GB Intel 520 Series SATA III SSD's, 5x3TB Drobo 5D

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#14 Post by Temetka » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:56 pm

Man this does sound like a fun project indeed.

I really like this T60 that I have now. So much so that my powerbook has taken a backseat in terms of daily use. Part of me wants to sell it to fund upgrades to the T60, but part of me thinks that is pure insanity.

As soon as fundage presents itself I will be attempting to upgrade my LCD to an IPS display at SXGA+ and do so with my Intel GPU. I would also like to go to 3GB of RAM (currently 1.5GB) and a faster / larger HD than the 100GB drive in here now. I'd also like to pick up a few ultrabay devices so I can have a second battery, or a second hard disk. Finally I would like to do the Core2Duo upgrade primarily for 64bit support, the added speed and cache are icing.

I wish I had as much knowledge of the series as I do the T4x series then i'd be able to post something with a tad more content than 'Me too!'. Anyway keep us updated with the quest.
New:
Thinkpad T430s 8GB DDR3, 1600x900, 128GB + 250GB SSD's, etc.
Old:
E6520, Precision M4400, D630, Latitude E6520
ThinkPad Tablet 16GB 1838-22U
IBM Thinkpad X61T, T61, T43, X41T, T60, T41P, T42, T410, X301

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New mobo for T61p

#15 Post by JimboAsh » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:18 am

Hey guys, I have a T61p with serious issues. It keeps restarting after initial hardware scan just after detecting optical drive. Looks like it needs a new mobo. It is 42w7652. Do I have to use the same model or can I fit a different one? I am concerned about the NVIDIA issue so maybe would prefer Intel. I just dont know which boards will physicaly fit and support my 2.2ghz cpu.
Can anyone advise me as to what my options are?
Thanks

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#16 Post by Brad » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:45 am

Welcome to the forum!

According to the hardware maintenance manual here there are several motherboards listed. Check item 20 on page 139.

Brad
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#17 Post by Johan » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:07 pm

First of all, I absolutely owe a big ”Thank you!” (although delayed) to all you who have posted replies with very valuable advices to my questions about how to choose parts for the ultimate 15” T60/T61/p UXGA FlexView/IPS ThinkPad. I don’t quite know what is happening, but sometime I do receive an e-mail notification from the Forum that a new post has appeared (in some thread I have posted a reply to), but often I don’t receive any (and, yes, I have checked the ”Always notify me of replies” in my profile). Wonder what’s the reason for this? Anyway, now I’m all up to date on this thread!

There seems to be a general agreement that an integrated GPU is recommended (not surprising), to achieve the objectives discussed in my initial post (especially low fan-noise). However, in this relation, George raises a very important question: Whether an integrated GPU will actually also support UXGA?

Looking in the most recent ltwbook (official title: ”Personal Systems Reference, Lenovo ThinkPad Notebooks, 2005 to present – withdrawn, November 2008 - Version 348”) and seeing which integrated GPU’s are (/was) available in 4:3 (non-widescreen) T61’s I only find the ”Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (GMA X3100)” listed. It is used in T61’s having either XGA or SXGA+ resolution LCD’s (and is also in the wide-screen T61’s running WXGA and WXGA+). According to the Intel GM965 datasheet the X3100 is said to: ”Supports a QXGA maximum resolution (2048 x 1536) @ 60 Hz, 32-bpp” so this kind of indicate that UXGA with at least 60 Hz should also be supported... but who know if Lenovo both implemented the drives and also enabled support for this in the BIOS? I have tried to find the answer to this in a bunch of IBM T61 Announcement Letters, but no luck… :-(

According to System service parts - ThinkPad T61, T61p 14.1inch standard screen there only seems to be one single motherboard using this GPU, being the FRU = 42W7648 – so the question now simply is this:

a) Will this Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (GMA X3100) actually support an internal UXGA LCD? If not, not much fun in getting this mobo and trying to get it to drive a 15” UXGA FlexView/IPS? ! So, anybody would happen to know the answer to this: GMA + UXGA = go or no-go?

Whether mobo’s with NVIDIA GPU’s should be avoided or not (potential reliability issues?), that’s however a bit unclear, to me, but since NVIDIA’s are all discrete, and we want integrated, this issue solves itself! :wink:

b) What exactly is ”Intel AMT”? (Intel Active Management Technology - iAMT)… anything I need or want? (if I even have a choice?)

c) What CPU is recommended?? (wanting the muscles, for peak-power applications, but also and even more wanting it to be quiet and low-noise under idle/light use). This question perhaps more or less answer itself… the T61’s coming with GMA/X3100 according to the ltwbook support (at least) T5270, T7100, T7300, T7500. The newer T8100 & T8300 seems to require 14.1 wide-screen mobo’s with the PM965 (as what I have been able to detect from the ltwbook and various announcement letters). On the other hand, some T61u (yes, ”T61u” whatever the ”u” means?) also uses the GM/PM965 chipset and support both T8300 and T9300!! According to the Personal Systems Reference - Intel PC Processors, December 2008 - Version 349 both the e.g. T7300, T7500 (page 7) and the T8300 and T9300 (page 8 ) are ”Socket P/Micro Flip-Chip Pin Grid Array (Micro-FCPGA) requires 479-pin surface mount Zero Insertion Force (ZIF) socket (mPGA479M socket) or Micro Flip-Chip Ball Grid Array (Micro-FCBGA) for surface mount (479-ball)” and are all supported by the ”Mobile Intel 965 Express Chipset family” – and all are 800 MHz FSB and 35 W TDP so this could seem to indicate that a 14.1” GM965 motherboard will actually work with Penryn T8300/T9300’s (and perhaps even T9500) – does anybody know whether this hold true or not??

d) Stay away from T61 mobo’s at all?? This advice comes from dr_st, and is interesting, although a few more detailed reference as to why would have been appreciated! But, surely, a T7600 (667 MHz FSB) would probably only run slightly slower (at max. speed) compared to e.g. the T8300/T9300 (800 MHz FSB)... but even if choosing to go the T60-GMA route, the same question as asked above stands: Will the T60-GMA support an internal UXGA LCD??

Subsequent update to the above: According to the thread WTB and FS (this post) T60's with the GMA 950 "seems" to be support UXGA on the internal LCD, although a solid, definite confirmation to this has still not been found.

e) The most quiet fan?? I also can’t figure out the answer to this; if, say, T61 fans are a generation more quiet compared to T60 fans, then this would be a good reason to lean towards a T61-based machine. I should add that a recent ”for sales” thread on the Marketplace in this forum holds quite some interesting information on this very subject: FS: Loaded Custom T61p with UXGA Flexview -->
In that thread, describing this T61p, freddy418 wrote:Specs:
15" Lenovo T60P 2623-DDU Laptop Chassis
15" Flexview UXGA 1600x1200 LCD
T61P Internals:
Intel T8300 CPU with T61P Fan and Heatsink (quiet)
2GB PC2-5300 RAM
Nvidia Quadro FX-570 128MB
Hitachi 7K200 200GB 7200RPM Hard Drive
Matsu UJ-852 DVD Multiburner
WWAN Antenna (no mini-pcie adaptor unfortunately)
90W AC Adaptor
About the T61p fan there, it was asked:
Would you mind to elaborate (the more, the better!) what is actually being said in red here:
...Intel T8300 CPU with T61P Fan and Heatsink (quiet)??
Does your fan e.g. never run or does is only run under heavy CPU and/or GPU load, and in any case what exactly does "quiet" mean? I am potentially interested, but I am very (very!) picky to noise, and in my vocabulary "quiet" meas "no noise" = fan always off (under light use)! Does this hold true?
.. and this was the reply:
freddy418 wrote:I am defining Quiet in this context as much more so than the T60P fan, which is an automatic headache inducer. "Quiet" also means in a competition with hard drive noise, the fan produces less.
… which seems to indicate that a T61p discrete fan is very quiet?

f) Replace the mechanical HDD by a no-noise SSD? Absolutely tempting; absolutely the way to go (costly, of course, but…), and this once again emphasizes the question: Which model is most low-noise; a T60-mobo w/T60 fan or a T61-mobo w/T61 fan? I really can’t answer this, as the only T6x fans I have heard is one in a 2007-QPG (T7200 w/discrete 128 MB PCIe ATI Radeon X1400). That fan (FRU 41W6407, ”Thermal device and fan - Discrete”) is certainly audible, even at lowest speed. I would absolutely be unhappy to have my ultimate ThinkPad arrive with that fan inside!

OK, enough questions for now! I started off this thread a while ago in one American way, and since back then things have happened, and the World has changed, so if anybody would ask me today if my Forum friends and I are able to see this project through to a success, I’d surely say: Yes, we can! :-)

Thanks in advance if anybody can shed light on the above questions!

PS: I just noticed that this is my post no. 1000 on this forum, and although I have learned a few things since my post no. 1 I have surely also learned that there is much I still need to learn to become a true, expert-ThinkPad’der! :wink:

Johan
IBM T42p's (2373-Q1U & -Q2U): 2.1 GHz, 15" UXGA FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 128 MB FireGL T2, 128 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate
IBM T42 (2373-N1G): 1.8 GHz, 15" SXGA+ FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 64 MB Radeon 9600, 64 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#18 Post by jketzetera » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:38 pm

Johan,

I recently completed a T60p UXGA FlexView to T61p conversion as described in this thread

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=74413

I just wanted to let you know that despite having a Nvidia FX570M on the T61p motherboard, the machine thermals improved very significantly. I went from having more than 70 C in idle GPU temp to approx 43 C in idle GPU temp.

This makes me wonder why Lenovo decided to cripple the FX570M in the 14" T61p machines as compared to the 15" T61p. On the other hand, the thermal problems with the T60 series might have induced them to rather be safe than sorry.

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#19 Post by dozer » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:13 pm

Johan, as always.....great post! :D

Could you update us on the status of your project?

I just read jketzetera's thread, where he found the T61 board to NOT physically fit properly. Have you run into the same thing? Or did you find a T61 board that does fit correctly?

Did you end up using an integrated-graphics board, and were you able to make that play with the 15" uxga properly?

thanks much,

Richard
WANTED! - Battery Diags/Reset Software; please PM me!
WTB: Good 9-cell T60 batt
WTB: Frankenpad T60 15" UXGA w/T61-Intel & internal modem
T60p, 2623-ddu, uxga, Intel-GPU || T61, 6465-01U 15.4" sxga || R60 9457-W37 14"xga

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#20 Post by ssd_thinkpad » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:29 am

dozer wrote:I just read jketzetera's thread, where he found the T61 board to NOT physically fit properly. Have you run into the same thing? Or did you find a T61 board that does fit correctly?

Did you end up using an integrated-graphics board, and were you able to make that play with the 15" uxga properly?
The T61 motherboard does not fit 100% correct in a T60. For a desktop computer that seems to be no big problem, however for a notebook that has to be sturdy it is. The T61 chipset is also said to be not that good. The intel gpu motherboards work with the Flexview models. I bought a WWAN Intel GPU motherboard for my T60 and it works great together with a ssd. I have *zero* computer noise. Battery life increased, too. Now I have a 2.5 kg notebook with the vertical display size of a W700 that runs hours of hours and is totally silent - for a rather cheap price.

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#21 Post by dozer » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:53 pm

ssd_thinkpad wrote: The T61 motherboard does not fit 100% correct in a T60.
........
The intel gpu motherboards work with the Flexview models.
.......
I bought a WWAN Intel GPU motherboard for my T60 and it works great .....
ssd, WHICH intel-gpu mainboards are you talking about in statements #2 and #3?.....t60 or t61?

I will not be using a t61 board if it doesn't fit properly and costs me the modem and pc-cards....so I -am- looking for confirmation that the -t60- boards with intel-gpu do work with the -uxga- flexview on my t60p.

So did you put in a t60 intel board, or a t61 version?

And is your 'flexview' the SXGA or UXGA?

thanks
Richard
WANTED! - Battery Diags/Reset Software; please PM me!
WTB: Good 9-cell T60 batt
WTB: Frankenpad T60 15" UXGA w/T61-Intel & internal modem
T60p, 2623-ddu, uxga, Intel-GPU || T61, 6465-01U 15.4" sxga || R60 9457-W37 14"xga

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#22 Post by ssd_thinkpad » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:36 pm

I use a T60 intel gpu motherboard with sxga+ flexview. I see no reason why uxga would not be supported by the intel gpu. I'd search in tabook.pdf / hardware maintenance manual for models that were sold, maybe you find some t60 uxga with intel gpu.

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#23 Post by dozer » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:47 am

ssd_thinkpad wrote:I use a T60 intel gpu motherboard with sxga+ flexview. I see no reason why uxga would not be supported by the intel gpu. I'd search in tabook.pdf / hardware maintenance manual for models that were sold, maybe you find some t60 uxga with intel gpu.
The issue isn't whether it's supported by "the intel gpu".....of course the chipset goes to very high resolutions as they all do.

My concern was that the -BIOS- wouldn't allow the chip to drive that display.

I've heard from richk now that the boards all use the same bios.

Although that still doesn't guarantee that an intel board will run a UXGA. Lenovo could easily enough have written the bios so that when it detects it's running on an intel-gpu board, it only runs certain displays. Certainly, one of the R5x/T4x was done that way. I can't recall the exact model, but recently read about actual tests of it in Underclocker's excellent "R5x-board-into-T41-base thread".

No reason T60 bios's wouldn't have the same kind of artificial screw-the-users limitations. :roll:

PS; before asking about this issue here, I spent an hour with the tabook last week, and looked at every single 60-series model with an intel-gpu. Not a single one was ever sold with a UXGA display. Or at least, not a single one was ever -listed-.

It's starting to look like this is going to be one of those "have to risk the money" kind of projects. Invest in a 2nd T60 and uxga and see. I've not yet found any thread or post here where someone says, in regards to T60 intel-gpu and UXGA specifically, "I HAVE done this personally and it DOES work".

Call me 'guinea-pig' I guess... :mrgreen:

thanks for the reply ssd,

Richard
WANTED! - Battery Diags/Reset Software; please PM me!
WTB: Good 9-cell T60 batt
WTB: Frankenpad T60 15" UXGA w/T61-Intel & internal modem
T60p, 2623-ddu, uxga, Intel-GPU || T61, 6465-01U 15.4" sxga || R60 9457-W37 14"xga

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#24 Post by ssd_thinkpad » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:02 am

Take a look into the hardware maintenance manual for the T60! There are all models shown. Compare the model numbers for "Motherboard Intel GPU" and the model numbers for "UXGA panel". If they match it works. I doubt lenovo would have controlled the intel gpu bios for "sxga+" output, "but do not show uxga". I think sxga+ is even not available for non - flexview T60, am I right? I am very happy with my model, it replaced my desktop computer and when I am on the go I have all my data with me. Of course 99% of the time I use my external display which is far superior than any Flexview. But when I am on the road, my eyes do not hurt like when they were looking on the x301.

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#25 Post by dozer » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:33 pm

ssd_thinkpad wrote:Take a look into the hardware maintenance manual for the T60! There are all models shown. Compare the model numbers for "Motherboard Intel GPU" and the model numbers for "UXGA panel". If they match it works. I doubt lenovo would have controlled the intel gpu bios for "sxga+" output, "but do not show uxga".
ssd, as I said, that's exactly what they did in the T4x series. See the thread I mentioned, by Underclocker....his great guide to swapping an R5x or T43 mobo into a dead T40 series. IBM specifically disabled sxga in certain configurations.
I think sxga+ is even not available for non - flexview T60, am I right?
Sorry, I don't understand that....they sold many configs of T60 with 14" (non-flexview) SXGA...here is just one group from ltwbook.....there are more....

2007-42U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-43U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-46U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-47U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-49U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-4AU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-4CU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-44U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-48U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-4BU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-4DU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-4EU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-62U Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-63U Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-64U Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-67U Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-66U Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-68U Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-05U Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-4WU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" XGA
2007-4XU Core Duo T2400 1.83 512MB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-6GU Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
2007-6HU Core Duo T2500 2.00 1GB 14.1" SXGA+
I am very happy with my model, it replaced my desktop computer
Yes, same here. I haven't even owned a desktop for a long time. For the past 10 years, we've lived "off-grid", in a 400 sq-ft cabin...even setting aside the power-consideration, I just don't have room for desktops anymore! :mrgreen:

Richard
WANTED! - Battery Diags/Reset Software; please PM me!
WTB: Good 9-cell T60 batt
WTB: Frankenpad T60 15" UXGA w/T61-Intel & internal modem
T60p, 2623-ddu, uxga, Intel-GPU || T61, 6465-01U 15.4" sxga || R60 9457-W37 14"xga

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#26 Post by ssd_thinkpad » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:53 pm

When I were you I'd buy the intel motherboard and see if it works. If I had a T60 with UXGA display I'd buy the same motherboard I have today. It costs 250 €, though.

If you just want to cool your system you can use the coin trick mentioned somewhere else in the forum. A coin (no joke!) is used to place the gpu fan better so the heat cooling is far more effective. You can install tpfancontrol and rmclock to avoid more heat, too.

After a whole day in the dock my system works now with 70 celsius completely passive cooled. That's impressive :D

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#27 Post by dozer » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:02 pm

ssd_thinkpad wrote:When I were you I'd buy the intel motherboard and see if it works. If I had a T60 with UXGA display I'd buy the same motherboard I have today. It costs 250 €, though.

If you just want to cool your system you can use the coin trick mentioned somewhere else in the forum. A coin (no joke!) is used to place the gpu fan better so the heat cooling is far more effective. You can install tpfancontrol and rmclock to avoid more heat, too.

After a whole day in the dock my system works now with 70 celsius completely passive cooled. That's impressive :D

I've already optimized the Heatsink; but intead of the 'coin' method, I reformed the heatpipes (without kinking them) to provide direct-contact at the GPU. I also reformed the "hold-down" clip over the GPU so that the 'spring tabs' properly contact the heatpipe near the center of the GPU, rather than pressing down on the -edge- of the heatsink, as they did.

By re-forming to lower the plane of the heatsink over the GPU, one also gains the ability to use a thinner thermal-pad at the Southbridge chip.

Interestingly, and perhaps ironically, while this mod succeeds at lowering the average GPU-temp (about 6C in low-impact browsing usage, i.e. from 68 to 62C), it actually -raises- the temp of the -CPU- slightly. :roll: :lol:

That's because its success at removing more heat from the GPU is also of course a success at putting more heat -into- the heatsink....which raises the temp of that heatsink....which slightly -lowers- its ability to cool the CPU. (heatpipes work proportionally to the delta-T between their 2 ends).

This mod does result in a cooler laptop -bottom- though....which was one of my two specific objectives for the project; so I'm satisfied with the result.

In any case, if you were me, then I'd have your money... :mrgreen: ...but I don't...so I have to shop very patiently for the best bargains. :D

In regards to RMclock, I've experimented with it for over a year now, and I'm quite disappointed. If one's usage-mode leaves the CPU in its half-speed state 99% of the time (e.g., browsing, reading), then rmclock does -nothing-. One can shut rmclock completely off and use only the built-in Speedstep BIOS, and the CPU-temp won't change a single degree.

That is because rmclock provides no ability to undervolt the -low speed- step of the CPU....only the -high speed- steps. And since the cpu sits at the lowest-speed step 99% of the time while just reading....

Tpfancontrol does nothing to "avoid more heat". It does not reduce power or heat-generation at all. Its only purpose is to provide more control over the fan than what Lenovo gave us; which it does well.

Richard
WANTED! - Battery Diags/Reset Software; please PM me!
WTB: Good 9-cell T60 batt
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T60p, 2623-ddu, uxga, Intel-GPU || T61, 6465-01U 15.4" sxga || R60 9457-W37 14"xga

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#28 Post by Pyramid builder » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:23 am

I'm going to do this T61 mobo replacement for my T60 too asap, though it might take awhile.

I asked about this fit issue with PM from two posters who had done the replacement: freddy418 said he didn't have any problems, Ck51010:
Ck51010 wrote:My swap was 99% compatible except for the modem card not fitting. I brought a PCMCIA modem just I need to run a dial-up connection. I'm not sure what MB revision jketzetera used, but I used the newest revision (42W7874). If you can, look for a T61 14.1 that uses that FRU. The are incredibly hard to find. The only way to get one would be to order one directly from IBM ($$$) or but a whole T61 14.1 with that MB revision. The point to using this revision is that it uses the newer T9XXX C2D without any issues and no fitment issues.

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#29 Post by tgun603 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:04 pm

I have successfully installed the 42W7872 motherboard (T61 14.1" with integrated Intel GM965 graphics) in T60p case with QXGA LCD (IAQX10N).
Here is my system:
- T60p 15" body (everything less modem board, LCD, HDD, RAM, CPU and T6x parts mentioned below)
- T61 motherboard (42W7872)
- T61 heatsink (42W2821)
- T61 PC-card/ExpressCard slot (42W3436 or 42X3827)
- IAQX10N 15" QXGA LCD
- Intel T9500 CPU (SLAYX or SLAQH)
- 2x4G DDR2-667 RAM
- Intel X25-M G2 160G SSD

For parts, manuals, BIOS, and drivers search I used the 8897-03U Lenovo model numbers on their web-site:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... ry=889703U.
I upgraded BIOS to the latest official version, which is v.2.26-1.08 (2009-05-26).

The T60p's hardware maintenance manual helped a lot during disassembling/assembling:
http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc ... 844_04.pdf.

In order to make the T61 motherboard fit in the T60p body perfectly I had to get rid of the modem board and file 2 holders it was screwed to (I used Dremel for this).
DO NOT TRY TO DRILL/ENLARGE HOLES IN THE T61 MOTHERBOARD TO MAKE IT FIT (I learned this lesson hard way which cost me $260 for another motherboard)!

The system is very cool and quiet, most of the time the fan is not even spinning.

Note about installing QXGA LCD:
I tried to reprogram the LCD with registered version of the PowerStrip as it was suggested in this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=77733.
However it did not work (tried 2 different systems (T60p and T61)), it could not even detect EDID.
So I bought the LCD cable on eBay ($7) and built simple I2C programmer (http://www.lancos.com/e2p/easyI2Cbus.gif).
You don't need the part to the right of the I2CBus box (http://d00m.net/projects/t61-qxga/easyI2Cbus_qxga.gif). I used +5V from USB port.
Here is the LCD connector pin-out: http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl35822/edidconnection.jpg.
Then I was able to reprogram the LCD with PonyProg v2.07c BETA (http://www.lancos.com/ppwin95.html).
Here is the binary version of the EDID (the PonyProg does not accept the PowerStrip formatted files): http://d00m.net/projects/t61-qxga/qxga.bin.
Most of the LCD programming related info I found in these threads:
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=66257;
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=76519.
Last edited by tgun603 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?

#30 Post by Binh » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:27 am

I am going to buy a 4:3 T61 and swap it's planar (motherboard) to my T60p. Because I want to swap the T60p planar back to T61 (in order to keep the two laptops working), I would like to know if it is possible to fit the T60p's (planar + heatsink + PC card slot) to the T61 chassis ? Will I have to remove the modem card and it's slot from the T60p's planar as it have to do with the T61 planar ?
Compaq 386SX > AST 486SX-25 > TP 390E > Compaq N410C > T41 2373-9U5 > T42p 2378-RVU UXGA 1.7@2.45GHz > T60p UXGA modded to T61 8889-ACG with T8300 OCed to 3.2Ghz@1.20V, undervolted to 1.6Ghz@0.775v, Nvidia NVS-140M undervolted to 0.9v, PCI-E ASPM enabled, 11W power in idle.

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