design flaw in new T42s ? (Admin edit)

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SimonCC · #31 Post by **SimonCC** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:15 am

morrow - i am sorry but i fail to see what it is you are trying to defend. Step aside from your attachment to IBM and understand that people are paying for laptops that need DIY fixes like placing plastic sheeting, napkins and business cards in the machine. The cleaning you suggest should not be needed and is a pain in the [censored] for the average user. This is 'fatal' in the sense that it is a purely negative attribute of the Ts that starts off negligible and ends up as a very annoying problem which may lead to returning the tp. The fact the problem gets worse gradually is why when you pulled one of your t42ps you could not feel any flexing or hear the creaking. Once again it is precisely this reflexive defense of IBMs that allow IBM customer service reps to say 'this problem simply does not exist' - pure denial. If you had to sign a contract when buying the t42 that stated you understand that over time creaking and flexing will ocur, it would perhaps jolt you into realising it is a fault and prevent you from parting with your hard earned dollars.

darrenf · #32 Post by **darrenf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:52 am

SimonCC, "Fatal Flaw..." was an inaccurate title designed to generate views of this message thread. It is a moderator's job (in part) to keep message titles helpful. All Bill did was take the word "Fatal" out of the title. I would have changed it more.

Bill contributed to the thread by pulling a new unit and looking for the problem. The original poster reported that three units had the problem and from the original description it sounds like a problem one would see right away because "after a couple weeks of usage the problem with the wrist-wrest clicking against the keyboard panel grows louder and louder, to the point where it annoys people sitting 10 feet away from the laptop." Bill confirmed that the problem is not present in a new unit.

I still don't understand the original problem completely and I know that I don't have the problem as described, but I do know about two problems in that general area, the keyboard "flex" and palmrest "creak." Both are easily fixed and, yes, I agree that IBM should have fixed them by now. Since they haven't, I fixed them myself and now I'm happy and problem free. Life could be a lot worse. I could own a Dell.

The squeak didn't get to me, but curiosity did so I fixed the palmrest squeak this morning on my 2373-FVU and it is rock solid now. I'll post a new topic in a few minutes since it might be of interest to people not reading this thread.

-darren

SimonCC · #33 Post by **SimonCC** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:03 pm

look, lets just leave this topic unresolved as it appears we all have our own views, however, this makes no sense -

"Bill contributed to the thread by pulling a new unit and looking for the problem. The original poster reported that three units had the problem and from the original description it sounds like a problem one would see right away because "after a couple weeks of usage the problem with the wrist-wrest clicking against the keyboard panel grows louder and louder, to the point where it annoys people sitting 10 feet away from the laptop." Bill confirmed that the problem is not present in a new unit"

The 'poster' could see the issue AFTER A FEW WEEKS, Bill pulled a new laptop, he did not have it in use for a few weeks. Furthermore, Bill reported 'very little give' as anyone would with a new t42, but this slight amount is degenerative and at first glance is difficult to classify as a problem or not due to the subjective nature of what constitutes an audible noise (the creaking). I do not want to give the impression that Bill is at fault here, and i hope that my persistance is not taken to mean some kind of personal assault, i thank him for his usual help and patience on tricky issues, but im afraid he presents no reasons as to why this problem is acceptable or a rarity.

Conmee · #34 Post by **Conmee** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:54 pm

I'll agree that saying it's a 'fatal' design flaw is certainly misleading in a public forum like this... most people will read the thread title and think a T Series killed someone... lol Maybe persistent/consistent design flaw or something to that effect would be more accurate. And certainly, for some folks, these issues will be deal-breakers, much like dead pixels, and those folks have only two courses of action: DIY fixes or return the ThinkPad.

Anyhow, I will say that about half the T Series (14" LCD) I've come across have flex and creaking of the palmrest and flimsy keyboard around the arrow keys and Fn key right out of the box. The other half develop these symptoms over a period of about 1-2 weeks... and I'm talking about more than a dozen systems in the past 18 months. So I'll say that whoever has had their T Series (14" LCD) for more than a month, and has yet to encounter any of these issues is one lucky.... person.

Fact of the matter is that I've used the business card trick for the keyboard as well as a business card/thin slice of packing foam to correct the palmrest creaking. The main areas of creak are the little 'ribs', one on each side of the trackpoint that aligns with the hard drive and the PC Card slots, the area on the left side where the palmrest meets the plastic edges of the PC Card slots, the area where the palmrest slides in under the keyboard bezel above the exhaust vents, the area around the infrared insert, the area directly beneath the middle of the trackpad's two lower pushbuttons, and the right edge of the palmrest (the piece that is the lower right-hand corner of the palmrest, framing the hard drive cover). Using tiny bits of electrical tape (very tiny), business cards, and thin foam, I've eleminated every creak, flex, and sound. lol

But it wasn't easy, and was trial and error. Now, my T42p is solid as a rock. It also helps to replace the Chinese keyboard with Thai keyboard (if that's still possible), and I also replaced the factory palmrest with the palmrest that doesn't have the trackpad. The one without the trackpad seems a bit sturdier.

Now having said all this, and admitting there is a design 'flaw' if that is what these symptoms are to be generally regarded as, I will say in IBM's defense that it is difficult to make such a small and lightweight form-factor as the T Series, with the necessary rigidity, to eliminate all squeaks and creaks and flex, using mass-produced injection molded plastics, that are also conducive to quick and easy assembly line production. Could IBM, if they took their time, be much more diligent and use more expensive equipment, materials, processes, to eliminate everything we're complaining about? Absolutely. But no one will pay the premium for it in the volumes necessary to make the effort profitable, and no company trying to deliver that kind of quality will make much money in a market most folks consider a commodity market. Why do you think IBM sold to Lenovo? lol Buy an Apple, Dell, Toshiba, HPQ, you name it, and if it comes within millimeters or milligrams of the dimensions and weight and performance and battery life of a ThinkPad, you are going to find something to complain about, be it squeaking cases/palmrests, flimsy keyboards, loud fans, hot running CPUs/HardDrives, etc... and on and on. Not trying to make excuses for IBM, but these are the times in which business operate. And all this begs the question: What will you buy INSTEAD of a ThinkPad, arguably the highest quality notebooks made? I guarantee that most of us will find something wrong with the competitions' products as well in terms of build/construction. And for all the hassles, I'll live with the minor DIY fixes I need to apply to a ThinkPad, rather than buy something else.

If you really want something built rock solid, and want to feel justified in paying $3000, buy an Alienware notebook. It won't run more than an hour on battery, and will weigh about 8 lbs. without battery or power supply, but it won't creak or have a flimsy keyboard. lol And it will kick out the fps in Doom3 like you've never seen!

Daniel.

Leon · #35 Post by **Leon** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:13 pm

Certified Great Post!

eriqesque · #36 Post by **eriqesque** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:38 pm

Leon wrote:Certified Great Post!

Think you meant "Certifiable" Thread

Leon · #37 Post by **Leon** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:49 pm

both!

#38 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:06 am

my name is bill.. please do not use yet another trick to denigrate..

since you "fail to see", i am trying to defend fairness and accuracy, nothing more..

perhaps a poll asking how many users of 14 inch T40 series thinkpads suffer from this creak and click to the point of annoying others up to 10 feet away there are..?

so, lets just keep it civil and accurate..

thanks

Kenn · #39 Post by **Kenn** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:23 am

My $0.02 - Bill was right on. The edit was minor and addressed only the patently hyperbolic and irresponsible aspect of the post. He did not censor any of the content or message of the original post, though it was certainly his unquestioned right to do so.

Anyone can argue until the cows come home that "any" attribute that displeases them(if I bend the display in half the LCD cracks!) is "fatal" with respect to their purchase and opinion, but a "fatal design flaw" is well-understood in common and legal parlance, and a creak that few users in a hardcore enthusiast forum can even corroborate simply does not qualify.

We all understand frustration, but it doesn't mean people are justified in making factually questionable and exaggerated claims on a private message board.

On the other hand, we're all free to vent, and nobody is asking anybody to stop expressing their frustrations and disappointments

SimonCC · #40 Post by **SimonCC** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:50 am

Bill, i have the right to disagree with you, as i have the right to believe that the flaw is in some respects 'fatal' - that is all. I do not use any kind of 'tricks' lol, i simply ask the right questions and stick to my guns. Sorry for the misunderstanding as i referred to you as morrow because that is the name you posted under. I do not take time out to post my opinions for the sake of insulting people; how this would be possible on a computer forum is beyond me but accept my appologies anyway! I did not question your right to edit the post title, in fact i think the new post title is better fitting to this discussion. As for the suggestion of a poll, aside from the silly 10ft away part - yes lets do that, perhaps that would prevent people from taking things personally on this dramatic issue!

#41 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:05 pm

simon..

words are extremely important..
they can be weapons..
words must be used with great care (not that many of us ever edit a post before posting) or an entirely different meaning might be taken than intended..

i personally do not think that flaw rises to the level of even being a mild cold, let alone fatal..

there is no such thing as perfection, especially when you are marketing a product like a laptop computer..
it is complex and yet must be built to be competitive..

i think ibm has done a wonderful job to find a balance between price/value and quality/technical superiority..

there are so many examples of similar products i won't bother to point them out now..

in the past, owning a thinkpad was like owning a rolls royce..
the top end model was quite exclusive due to the high price and also (unlike rolls) innovative specs..

thinkpads still retain some of the exclusive aura of the 755CD/CE series even now..

in this case, i feel that you chose to use highly inflamatory words so as to gather as much negative publicity as possible for a really trivial manufacturing fault.. and manufacturing fault (IMO) it is since curing the problem is so simple..

you know, the chinese workers are as fine a group (overall) of craftsmen as can be found..
the people assembling these are not a bunch of "yahoos" throwing together the bits and parts to make a new thinkpad..
there are QC and torque specs and more..

and if tech support thinks the problem is not (a problem) then you might take the time to educate 2nd tier support personnel.. and this might take a trip to the service depot for your thinkpad..

or

you might just take care of it yourself, like most of us would if faced with similar cuircuimstances..

you are welcome to post and be a part of this community and i hope you will want to be here and participate in the future..

#42 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:02 pm

Folks, quit complaining about your wristpads making a noise. If you are one of the few with a defective wristpad, either do the business card trick or return the computer, but quit whining on. If you want a real design problem, my 760 has a bent hinge from a weak contruction, the LCD housing is bending inwards, the keyboard is starting to bend inwards and never was that good to begin with, you have to pound the keys on the keyboard to make the thing type, it has the mWave DSP which IBM got sued over and to top it all off, EDO ram only and I have to have one device on it disabled at all times to avoid IRQ conflicts. How many of those problems can be fixed with a piece of paper? Again, if the wristpad on your T42 is truely a problem, either do what msot other peopel do and slide a business card under it or return the [censored] thing. It hasn't even been a year since IBM released the T42, so just about every T42 on this Earth should still be under warranty.

w0qj · #43 Post by **w0qj** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:44 pm

i bought my T42s about 2 mths ago, and no creaking and no keyboard flex on it.

really don't agree that there's a "fatal design flaw"--it just don't exist in my computer (and i would suspect a number of others--my wife works with a T40).

i've stopped reading this thread half way into page 1 a few weeks back, but now i'm also putting in my 2 cents worth from actual usage experience, for what it's worth.

#44 Post by **erik** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:05 pm

i think this thread has a fatal design flaw as i almost died halfway through reading it.

-erik

t41user · #45 Post by **t41user** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:41 am

my t41 is about 14 months old and the keyboard sounds that it makes never bother me. the only time i really notice the sounds for more than a barely conscious millisecond is after reading about them. i imagine that some of the best car seats and bed mattresses that money can buy, for instance, make creaking sounds. what's wrong with some creaking sounds?

#46 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:54 am

yeah, i agree..

good time to put this one to bed..

goodnight, goodnight, goodnight..
let us say goodnight till it be...

morrow

design flaw in new T42s ? (Admin edit)

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