Computer Keyboards produced in horrible enviroments

[jamerslong]

http://i.gizmodo.com/5150655/your-keybo ... conditions

apparently Lenovo buys keyboards from a company that essentially owns a large quantity of slaves...

[BillMorrow]

i guess, in china, where overpopulation has always been a problem, workers are commoditized..

it seems to me that automation could make those keyboards better and cheaper..
but i would not want to see those people replaced by a robot..
it IS their only job otherwise they probably would not still be there..

i guess with 1.3 billion people there are so many willing to work in those conditions there is no shortage of replacements..

al gore talks about the environment but never talks about the root cause..

boy, i am happy to live in america..

i am editing out "Lenovo" from the subject line because lenovo is not the only company to buy from the company in the article..

[Marin85]

I also would be very careful with such articles because they often misrepresent, exaggerate or misinterpret some facts for political reasons or because the authors themselves are more or less misinformed. While I know that China still has its problems, I would ask myself, if all these reports (I´m not particularly referring to that specific article) are true, then who in China would allow such information to come out... it´s not like that the Chinese have no experience with filtering out information... (and yes, I understand that even the Chinese can´t completely control the outgoing information stream, but this doesn´t really sound as a good explanation as to where and how some authors were able to gather their information...).

Just my 2 cents

Marin

[beGi]

While I know that China still has its problems, I would ask myself, if all these reports (I´m not particularly referring to that specific article) are true, then who in China would allow such information to come out...

Freedom fighters, human right fighters, ordinary people who want to live better life, some ambitious reporter, etc...

Humans are really remarkable animals, capable of things beyond imagination (in good and bad way, unfortunately)...

Marin, you should ask yourself again, and here is how people get motivated to send a message out (try to imagine yourself there):

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/11/v ... as-ho.html

[mattbiernat]

i agree with you Marin but only to a certain degree. if this was on TV in United States I would simply assumed it is not true or biased or politically formulated. but the paculiar thing about the internet is that anybody can write this and it is much harded if not impossible to completely control internet.

[Marin85]

beGi: Thanks for pointing this out for me, but I have never said that such problems don´t exist in China. My point is only that probably not everything is like this in China "just" because China has some very serious problems. Some people just tend to label everything the same way, even though it´s not the same. That´s the point where some people start misrepresenting particular facts to support their "cause" of trying to "solve" indeed different problems. As for the so called "freedom and human right fighters", I have to admit I know few of them, but as of those I happen to know I´m pretty far from being impressed by them... For a long time now things haven´t been looking the way they are. And when you add a couple of misguided or misfortuned people (also plenty of them with poor knowledge and education - and this is not only what is written in some books, but much more includes self-education, education of judging facts and understanding other people) or others looking for justification of their existence, you get a complete idea of the picture - so called "freedom and human rights fighters" (and some of them probably raised in the local debate clubs, talking and acting without real understanding)...I have no doubt that there are people who really understand the problems of this world, who want to change some things, who know what they are doing and what they are fighting for, there have always been such people and there will always be such people, but their cause and their efforts, their sweat and blood are more so devalued by those others (maybe I should simply call the these others fools because for being a fool no taking of responsibility is required...)

With all due respect,

Marin

EDIT: mattbiernat replied while I was writing this.

[Marin85]

i agree with you Marin but only to a certain degree. if this was on TV in United States I would simply assumed it is not true or biased or politically formulated. but the paculiar thing about the internet is that anybody can write this and it is much harded if not impossible to completely control internet.

Indeed, but that´s also one of the problems of internet, you said it yourself, everyone can write this or that... no matter if it´s true or not... And what is even more important, everyone would have access to it (via internet freedom) and would be able to read or hear it (and also to assume that it´s true because internet is free and cannot be controlled (which btw is not entirely true, but that´s another long topic)...).

I hope I haven´t come so far just because of some keyboards...

Marin

[dsvochak]

Back to the original topic—

Assume it’s completely true. Further assume similar conditions obtain in most, if not all, factories in China and other countries where companies have moved their manufacturing.

It becomes a “so what?” Are there keyboards, computers, televisions, stereos or other electronic equipment being made in countries with “American” working conditions? If not, what does one do if one needs a new keyboard? Would a company manufacturing their product in factories like this change the working conditions because we’re upset? Unless there’s a Chinese Henry Ford and Chinese Walter Reuther out there, it’s not likely.

While it’s appropriate to express concern about something like this, there is very little any of us, individually or collectively, can do about it. Like Bill said, “boy, i am happy to live in america..” But I’m even happier to be living here now instead of 1900 when similar conditions existed here.

[ajkula66]

dsvochak wrote:

Unless there’s a Chinese Henry Ford

I'm quite certain that Chinese methods of suppressing organized labour are way more advanced than Henry Ford's, although his were quite brutal...

[bill bolton]

but the paculiar thing about the internet is that anybody can write this

That cuts a whole host of ways.

Just because its on the Internet doesn't give information any specific intrinsic value.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[wuy30]

I used to work and manage a factory with about 1000+in China for 5 years, and I have to admit some of the practices in the articles are true to an extend, here are some of explaination for some of the points(There are too many points, could have written a book if I repy on all the things), I am not defending the points or anyone nor I am trying to put a bad image on low end workers, just giving my explaination from what I have seems

—"Being 1 to 5 minutes late to start a shift…"
Dealing with over 1000+ workers that came from all over the China (Some factories has over 30,000 ppl, strict rules need to be enforced as Chinese has tendency to be late or ask someone to punch in for you
—"Not periodically trimming fingernails, which will affect product quality."
Quality control issue, you wouldn't believe some of worker's hygene
—"Not lining up correctly while punching time cards or at the cafeteria."
Ever try to line up in a bank or KFC? and someone cuts in front of you? this doesn't usually happens in US where someone cuts in front of you. However, this is common practice in China, I was in line for 10 min in KFC and someone just cuts in front and place order, imaging when 1000 ppl trying to lineup for punching in or out and everyone trys to cut in.
—"Wearing work shoes outside the work room after work."
How would you like it when you receive your new Ipod with a big foot print on the box? I seem regularlly workers stands on top of brand new boxes for no reason
—"…answering a personal telephone call in the workroom."
Factories are paying the workers to work, not paying them to chat on the phone, I have regularlly seem workers hide in the backroom or stock room chatting on the phone sometime for 30+ min
—"Returning to the dorm after regulated hours [curfew]."
Even Disney has curfews, all the schools in Taiwan has curfew, safety concern
—"Switching beds without authorization." (Dorm beds are assigned by management.)
Personally seem two ppl got into fit for switching bed, because the top bed offers better view.... Yes, I think better enforce that rule
—"Riding the elevator without permission."
Some elevators are fro cargo only, I had to help hand carry boxes from 6th floors down to the container because some one had too much fun in the elevator and broke it, making the container delay, ended up spending over 30,000 USD to air ship the products. if you are the boss, I think you will enforce that rule
—"Plugging in electronics [using electricity] in the dorm room for personal use."
With 6-10 ppl in one dorm room, that means there most likely will be 6-10 phone plug in the charge the phone, TV, water heater, fans... and most important thing of all, they are not paying the elec. bill, the factory is.
—"Using the company phone to make personal calls."
Had to deal with over 10,000 dollar worth of phone calls before
—"Entering or leaving the factory area without allowing door personnel [security guards] to inspect [search workers]."
How would you like to wake up and find out that you just lost 1 ton of copper raw material? I don't think most people will like that very much


I think I have typed enough here... most people think this is too much, you are restricting people's freedom, and I agree, but Most of the factory are enforcing these rule at a reasonable standard, I do have to admit some of the factory are really over enforcing it.

As for wage, I would say about 60% of the factory are following the law, maybe lack on some parts, however with the new China labor law last year, Overall labor cost is about 30% higher than before, when most of the factory's profit % is below 10%. This means that the cost will be than transfer to the importers which at the end, transfer to you and me the consumers. Would you like to buy everything made in China 30% higher than before? most people would probably answer No.

[BillMorrow]

e-waste..

i guess we all should stop buying new electronics and just keep what we have..
which means that i should still be using the ETAK nav system (pre-GPS) and the IMTS mobil telephone when i lived on the SF peninsula..

or, perhaps we should all be driving model T fords..

the thing is progress comes at a price and those people are entrepreneurial and defending their little business's..
environmental awareness will come to china but not before they get a handle on the underlying problem of overpopulation..
--see my post above--

and referring to my post above those chinese workers sure l;;ooked clean and fairly well dressed for slaves..

the worst part of their lives is those silly rules (which are, FWEIW, hearsay)..

when you are one in a billion you do what you must to survive..

my point would be to stop bashing china..
its not fair unless china can have a voice at this table..
(oops, while typing this missive, i see someone who WILL speak FOR china.. GOOD, happy to have you at the table.. )

lets see, i was born BEFORE the EPA and many other protective organizations and yet, here i am still fairly healthy.. i survived WW-2, korea, driving too fast without seatbelts and drinking questionable milk from marin county..

[virge]

My thoughts:

Some of those penalties for small infractions seem outrageous, but others not so much. I mean things like, using the company phone for personal calls, producing products of low quality, revealing confidential information, etc. would be grounds for being fired at my job. Not just fines.

wuy30 provides some good insight. Not all the rules may make sense, but it seems like for many of them are reasonable under the circumstances. The "lining up" problems really make sense if people line up like the way they drive in some countries.

I had an econ teacher who would describe these working conditions as "better crappy jobs than no jobs at all." That's what the workers there are probably thinking. In this economy, I'm sure there are people in the US who are starting to think the same thing. I'm NOT saying that its a good direction to be moving in.

Oh, and like others have said, its the internet. No cites to any sources-- it just mentions "a study."

Fun fact: My high school Careers class had a manual dexterity test which involved flipping pegs on a pegboard and moving them from one side to the other. I did well and was told that I would make a great assembly line worker. Sweet huh? I could've moved to China and been one of those guys in that picture!

[Temetka]

If the world demands cheap electronics where do they come from?

Certainly not the U.S. where we have shift laws, minimum wage laws and so on.

Of course China will produce them. They do it because we pay them to.

You want to work 14 hours a day for .80 and hour? Of course not.

Really the naivety of some people really makes me question the collective sum of human and intelligence.

It's quite simple people:

1. The world wants $10 keyboards, or MP3 players or Cell phones.
2. No one in the U.S. or Europe wants to work for $0.80 an hour
3. Non in the U.S. or Europe wants to deal with the trash that is created by old equipment and the waste produced by manufacturing 10 million parts a day
4. China (or insert country here) is willing to produce at a cheap rate
5. We continue to consume


Supply and demand people. Simple economics.

I feel for these people, but really there is very little to be done about it. Unless of course people are willing to pay more for their products, which I highly doubt.

[killer]

Temetka's posting sums it up very well, IMO.

[Marin85]

Unfortunately, Temetka is right about how things work in economy nowadays...

4. China (or insert country here) is willing to produce at a cheap rate

I´m not really sure how willing they really are to do so. It´s not like that they would have much of a choice...


@wuy30:Thanks for your reply. I think it´s good for all of us to hear the other side.

[hausman]

I wonder how much of this is reality, i.e. that manufacturing workers in developing countries are treated poorly, or a result of the Internet's ability to disseminate reports of such poor conditions quickly and widely.

Back in the days (1960s and 1970s) when low cost goods were made in Japan and then later when Taiwan, Malaysia et al took over, were their workers treated as badly as is now alleged in China?

[killer]

One doesn't have to go back too far in history to find examples of dreadful working conditions in most of the 'civilised western world'. Read works by Dickens, Steinbeck, Orwell to find examples in literature. Search in Google for 'Tolpuddle Martyrs' to read about the first case of workers rebelling against labour injustice and what happened to them. Look up the reasons why the US has laws against workers only being able to spend tokens in the company store.

[dsvochak]

It appears some institutions may be taking positions that could have an effect on a company’s bottom line.

University of Michigan committee recommends dropping Russell Corp. license agreement over workers' rights issues

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/ind ... mmitt.html

[jamerslong]

I was acctually reading a little more on the topic. it seems that there are many many factories competing in china. there are industrial cities with 1500 factories up next to eachother. this is a poor factory compared to many others out there and workers quit and go to other factories on a regular basis. apparently the reason passing out flyers is not allowed is because people use that to tell others about working conditiong and to stay away if possible.

I am by no means saying that the conditions are a standard in china, but this factory is deffinately not looking out for their employees best interest.. the rules do not apaul me so much as cultures are different around the world but the poor pay just makes me want to smack the first person I see. I could see making 100$ on a 40 hour work week. but on an 80 hour work week, this is insane, the good side is that you have a place to sleep and food to eat.

Alot of people do have to consider exchange values as well. while I was deployed I was paying 3$ for a haircut, I pay way more at home so I gave them a 5$ tip and they about collapsed. that translated to around a 16$ tip in their currency.

[Beaver]

i agree with you Marin but only to a certain degree. if this was on TV in United States I would simply assumed it is not true or biased or politically formulated. but the paculiar thing about the internet is that anybody can write this and it is much harded if not impossible to completely control internet.

I do not trust US TV as well...



This screenshot will be especially funny for Marin as he lives in "Iraq"

[killer]

Beaver, That is brilliant! Post of the year. LMFAO.

[Beaver]

In fact it's quite old picture, but still very good Every time I am trying to imagine the surprised Germans watching US special forces trying to find nearest terrorist hideout. In fact I am quite sad that Iraq is not there - can you imagine the prices of the fuel with such neighbor ?

[beGi]

In fact I am quite sad that Iraq is not there - can you imagine the prices of the fuel with such neighbor?

Believe me, you don't want to be anywhere near Iraq, or any other country that is in war...

EDIT: funny pic though

[Marin85]

@beaver:lol, man, that pic is really the killer (sorry, killer)... (-> Angela Merkel=Saddam Hussein -> U.S. has never captured the real Saddam )