Lenovo Kills Off ThinkVantage System Update

[underclocker]

Insane.

There must have been something terribly flawed about TVSU for Lenovo to pull the plug so quickly. It wasn't perfect, but I used it for every system that I built and maintain.

I never left on the scheduler feature, but did manal polling then selected the updates from the available options. True, it was a pig of a program and somewhat hit or miss with offering up available upgrades, but it was much better than downloading each individually.

One thing that I am sure of, Lenovo will release a better product. They are a technology company and they do know who they are dealing with - corporate businesses and advanced, particular users. I'm just not sure version 1.0 will be that product (but I am hopeful).

Bottom line, Lenovo needs a good, thin, updater program ASAP.

[jdhurst]

Lenovo does NOT understand programs, programming, what to do, or how people use things.

1. The GUI interface for Access Connections and Power Manager is deathly slow and they do not know what is wrong or how to fix it.
2. Software Installer was always better than System Update and it was killed.
3. System Updater had its issues, but I used it to get a quick list of what I needed and then did it manually. Now it is dead and there is no way to get a quick list. You need to be very organized like me to do this all manually.
4. Cool is more important to Lenovo than functionality.
5. They don't use or try the programs they dump into our computers to use (added after reading more)

... JDH

[thaug]

I intend to contact the executive relations team at Lenovo, and all that feel strongly about this should do the same.

From the BBB's web site:
http://www.bbb.org/easternnc/business-r ... c-90064256

[beGi]

Or maybe we/you should wait and see how will new Message Center work...

Just a suggestion...

[rrosen]

Well SI and later SU were significant tools to keep my support costs down, a major reason I buy Thinkpads for my organization. Putting on my CIO hat, I would have to reconsider what machines we buy if this is a permanent loss. I'm hopeful Lenovo is smart enough to realize the importance of this tool and that eliminating it would put them at a disadvantage to the competition.

[bobbarker]

The 'manual' way wouldn't be bad if you didn't have to go to the individual driver page, then click "download" then deal with the popup and agree to it and then save the driver. That and there are loads of things to download. Video, audio, Trackpoint, chipset, wifi, ethernet and then a slathering of "Windows Tweaks" to make things work right. If they just had a direct download link next to the device listing loss TVSU wouldn't be so bad.

I'd agree TVSU UI sucked though and it was a sluggish app but it DID work and worked well, especially when Lenovo is pushing out better drivers for the T400 and other newer models.

edit:
And it needs to be more careful with BIOS updates. Friend of mine bricked his T400 when TVSU decided to reboot after new drivers right in the middle of flashing.

[loyukfai]

- While TVSU sometimes leave much to be desired, I still consider it an useful program, when the alternative is to manually check and download and install each update.

- Based on my experience of (particularly) Power Manager and Access Connection, I don't have much hope on Lenovo being able to deliver a nice and neat utility.

- IMO Microsoft should open up Windows/Microsoft Update to 3rd parties. Some kinds of mechanism should be implemented to discern updates from Microsoft and those that are not through (e.g. user opt-in...?) I haven't thought about it in detail, but right now every vendor and program having its own auto-update mechanism is just... Unmanageable.

- Lenovo's decision to shut down TVSU, while the replacement is not ready yet, sounds weird to me as well.

[thaug]

The key takeaway is that Lenovo ended support for SU with ZERO notice. Those organizations that relied on SU and Update Retriever are very abruptly left without an update mechanism that is easy to use. Downloading each update one by one, with the many clicks required, then extracting those downloads, and THEN running the setup utility is way too time consuming to do on a larger scale, or certainly way too complicated to ask your users to do.

A while ago, Lenovo had asked about peoples usage of the ThinkVantage suite at their Inside the Box blog. Most responses were all over the place, but System Update was generally regarded as necessary. I see this as a stepping stone to getting rid of all of the other components of the suite. If you can't easily download or keep them up to date, the usage of those utilities will naturally decrease, and it will be self-fulfilling prophecy to can them.

[Thecla]

Personally, I like and use TVSU frequently, and have never had it cause any problems (when it's been running anyway); not that I won't manage fine without it too.

But...

The key takeaway is that Lenovo ended support for SU with ZERO notice.

...this part does strike me as pretty astonishing. Lenovo is simply not giving the impression of a reliable professional organization.

[VFR_firefly]

I see this as an ominous sign.

The reason behind it is probably money. It takes money to pay the people to keep the updates going. I might be wrong and SU will be replaced with this new "communications center" and all will be well with the world.

Lenovo is the Lexus of computing. They have all this support and free downloads and documentation kept on their site for perpetuity. What other company has anything even remotely like this? Nobody.

This is the reason why I am a big fan of Lenovo and wouldn't think of buying anything else.

But I fear this is all coming to an end. They are trying to cut costs. Pretty soon if things go this way Lenovo will be eMachines.

This is probably the beginning of the end. I'll be waiting for May to come and prove me wrong.

[Mike Blake]

I wonder if we are going to see Lenovo try to make an income generator out of a new version of System Update that you must pay to subscribe to?

As it is, the last versions of SU seemed to show more advertising than when I first used it. This "Message Plus" thing sounds like more of a marketing tool than anything else...has anybody used it?

[VFR_firefly]

The last Thinkcentre I rebuilt had it enabled so I let it go. It's pretty much just spam from what I saw. Maybe there are important messages that <i>Might</i> come down through it, but I didn't wait around long enough to see. After the 3rd spam I just disabled it as Message Center SPam was screwing up the unattended DVR program that Thinkcentre was running.

[Nameless]

At least "Lenovo is pursuing alternative solutions for system updates" that are hopefully less awkward than digging through the Driver Matrix manually looking for those updates you don't yet have.

The thing that sucks about the driver matrix is that if you go to the universal driver matrix for a given TP model (eg. T43/p) it has different versions for some things than if you plug in the model/type#. Usually the model/type# has the most up to date versions, but you have to wade through every version of every piece of software released for that model/type#, which is a HUGE P.I.T.A.

Probably what happened is that Lenovo got sued over it and was forced to take it down. That's the only thing that would make sense here. It was definitely a value-add for Lenovo owners.

[VFR_firefly]

I think the reason isn't because Lenovo got sued, I think it is because it is just too expensive to keep it going.

The server and the TVSU program aren't expensive to keep up. The issue is continuing to get the coding correct on the updates themselves so that they work automatically. Not only do they need to download and install themselves, but they need to know in what order they need to be installed, what needs to be uninstalled first, and what needs to be installed later. This must be a lot of coding as well as a lot of possibilities that have to be visualized in advanced whenever they release a new update. There are a ton of models that Lenovo is supporting and they go back into legacy systems which all still need to work and integrate flawlessly.

Think about how confusing it is to read all the update literature and figure out exactly what needs to be done and in what order for your particular machine. That work has to be done in advance by the update team, for every possible machine's model/hardware configuration/software-driver configuration. It must get mind-bogglingly complex for them and waste a lot of time.

Simpler to just kill it and let the customer do that work himself. Imagine all the man-hours Lenovo is going to save by this move. It sucks for us, and it is probably a mistake in the long run. But in the short-term I can see where Lenovo thinks this will save them a LOT of money in labor avoiding this task.

In the end, it's going to be a less full-service product they are selling. They can't be the leader if they aren't going to put in the work necessary to stay out ahead of the pack. And this latest move to dump TVSS and not replace it with anything else is the first round in downsizing their market perception of being "top of the line" business hardware.

[hausman]

I think it is because it is just too expensive to keep it going... The issue is continuing to get the coding correct on the updates themselves so that they work automatically. Not only do they need to download and install themselves, but they need to know in what order they need to be installed, what needs to be uninstalled first, and what needs to be installed later. This must be a lot of coding as well as a lot of possibilities that have to be visualized in advanced whenever they release a new update. There are a ton of models that Lenovo is supporting and they go back into legacy systems which all still need to work and integrate flawlessly...

The same issues apply to the updates themselves. In theory Lenovo has to test every update to every TV application on every ThinkPad model that it's supposed to work. Yes, it's tedious, but they're in a far better position to do it than to rely on their customers to do it for them.

Moreover, without the automation of TVSU or an equivalent replacement, Lenovo technical support will have to deal with thousands of calls from customers who are experiencing problems with their ThinkPads that have been corrected by updates they haven't installed. That could be because they assumed TVSU was still looking for and installing updates for them, i.e. they didn't know it was withdrawn. It could also be because they found the Driver Matrix approach too intimidating. Then there are the customers who try the driver matrix approach and end up installing the wrong updates, etc.

The cost of dealing with problems created as a by-product of not having a TVSU could be greater than the savings from withdrawing it.

[VFR_firefly]

The same issues apply to the updates themselves. In theory Lenovo has to test every update to every TV application on every ThinkPad model that it's supposed to work. Yes, it's tedious, but they're in a far better position to do it than to rely on their customers to do it for them.

Of course they are. But if they slough off that task onto us they don't have to pay for it (until people quit buying their products).

Moreover, without the automation of TVSU or an equivalent replacement, Lenovo technical support will have to deal with thousands of calls from customers who are experiencing problems with their ThinkPads that have been corrected by updates they haven't installed.

Have you dealt with Lenovo customer support lately? They are getting more clueless by the day. From what I've been hearing around the web many of them are not even aware yet that TVSU is no longer operational. I'm thinking that Lenovo really doesn't care anymore about their reputation and is going to milk the name as far as they can take it and then after that who cares.

The cost of dealing with problems created as a by-product of not having a TVSU could be greater than the savings from withdrawing it.

I doubt they plan on dealing with many them. I have a feeling they are not going to bother with much support for legacy systems any more. And if you are not under warranty then you are pretty much on your own as well. Those that are under warranty might see turnaround times so long they will think twice about it and instead pay a local unaffiliated laptop shop to do the work. Many businesses will just fix them in house until they find another vendor.

[killer]

@VFR_firefly: It would be a very sad day if Lenovo has given up the 'great service' mantle they bought from IBM.
Taking over the PC division cost Lenovo a small fortune ... but that was in the good times. Since the Olympics it has all been downhill for Chinese industry. I hope they get through it, otherwise we'll lose more than TVSU ... we'll lose Thinkpads.

[VFR_firefly]

@VFR_firefly we'll lose more than TVSU ... we'll lose Thinkpads.

I think that part is pretty much written in the cards.

There was a lot of worry that once Lenovo took over all the support from IBM that they would start to suffer. I think that up until a few months ago IBM was still doing a lot of heavy lifting in the software support/driver end of things. If you noticed that many of the "lenovo" links are IBM links. As this has moved over more fully into Lenovo's hands things have gone downhill.

I think that the abandonment of TVSU is only the tip of the iceburg. I am in no way celebrating this, I'm only being realistic with what the trends have been showing us. As things have gone downhill in China and the funding has dried up, this will only be seen more and more as what we used to call a "Thinkpad" will be more like something found in Harbor Freight than something originally conceived by IBM.

[killer]

@VFR_firefly: Having no idea what 'Harbor Freight' was I looked it up. (Curious that the US changed harbour to harbor and didn't alter freight. Oh well!)

What you forecast is a scary prospect.

Maybe IBM will buy PC division back from Lenovo at a fraction of the cost they sold it for.

More chance of 'Pigs on the Wing', as Pink Floyd put it?

[VFR_firefly]

It's too bad you don't have Harbor Freight there. It's a wonderful place. Cheap crap has its place sometimes. I could spend hours and hours just wandering around a HF store plucking up bargain tools. The stuff isn't even that bad on the whole as the Chinese have come a long ways with quality control. But it's still pretty hit or miss. It's definitely not Snap-On tools!

I had high hopes for Lenovo -post IBM. A lot of people say "Cheap Chinese Junk" when they talk about products from China. But I am old enough to remember when people used to say "Cheap Japanese Junk" in the exact same way -but look at where they are. Nobody says THAT anymore! They have become the new standard in well-made products. Lenovo could have gone either way. It is very sad to see that they are going in the wrong direction. Let's all hope I am wrong. But I really don't think so.

[Jona]

I agree with most people that System Update has never been perfect, but it was still a lot better than having to check the updates manually all the time. The way they are shutting it down so abruptly without a replacement makes me fear the new solution will be cheaper and inferior to System Update.

[killer]

Run 'System Update' and it says something like, "Come back in May ..."

Well, it is May now. Maybe they mean 2010?

[jdhurst]

Lenovo got rid of intelligent people who know how to write software. Don't expect it ever again.
... JDH

[archer6]

Run 'System Update' and it says something like, "Come back in May

If you want to be notified as soon as the new system is available see this link:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 22#p505622

[mattbiernat]

yes TVSU was not useful 99% of the time but that 1% it did solve many headaches. and sometimes you just can't find the right driver manually....

[asiafish]

This really pisses me off. I just bought a T400 that came with Vista Business 32 and I plan on immediately installing the 64 Bit version. Instead of using an easy utility I now have to try and figure out what order everything goes in and hope I get it right.

Anyone have the install order for the drivers on a T400 with switchable graphics?

[jdhurst]

A rough order is as follows:
1. Chipset and hardware drivers like HD Protection, Monitor, System Interface and LM service and so on.
2. Audio and Video drivers
3. Ethernet and wireless updates
4. Hot Key, Key Customizer, Power Management, Power Application, Mouse/Touch Pad updates.
5. All other drivers that you want.

... JDH

[jgollner]

Looks like we'll be changing from Thinkpads to Fujitsu, first test of their utility shows that a 9-12 man hour install (clean corporate load with no TVSU on Lenovo) becomes a 1-2 man hour load with Fujitsu. Management says switch, but I will miss thinkpads.

[archer6]

Looks like we'll be changing from Thinkpads to Fujitsu, first test of their utility shows that a 9-12 man hour install (clean corporate load with no TVSU on Lenovo) becomes a 1-2 man hour load with Fujitsu. Management says switch, but I will miss thinkpads.

Specifically what models are you switching to?

Was this partially a financial consideration?

[jgollner]

Was this partially a financial consideration?[/quote]
We haven't decided on a model, we just did a test with a loaner, and their utility worked first try with our corporate image. I'm still resisting the edict to change, it is not a financial issue EXCEPT for the cost in man hours for each machine we set up. That's the deal breaker for Lenovo, we can't afford more than a man day wasted every time we have to load a machine. With TVSU, it was just about one and a half man hours, and that's about what it took with the Fujitsu utility after we blasted the hard drive with our standard image.