ThinkPad x61 and Momentus 5400.6 (ST9500325AS) compatible?

[pepelaz]

I've upgraded hard drive in my ThinkPad x61 tablet (by installing Windows XP from scratch using USB DVD drive) to my new Momentus 5400.6 (ST9500325AS). And since then I experience following problems.

If ThinkPad's Active Protection System is enabled, system goes into Blue Screen of Death from time to time, showing error code 0x000000F4. If I turn Active Protection System off it seems more stable (not much time passed yet) - no BSODs, but it hung up once - no system activity, hdd led is off, just freezed.

Am I got unlucky and my drive is malfunctioning? Does anybody successfully run ST9500325AS with ThinkPad x61 or similar? Is it possible to do something?

I need to make it running very much.

Thanks in advance.

[closersource]

Stop code 0x000000F4 can be an error in virtually any piece of system critical hardware.
Since you are certain that this was caused by the HDD, you should test it to see if you have a defective hard drive.

There should be a BIOS level HDD diagnostic built into your system.
You can also try this...
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 70578.html

[bluesceada]

That harddrive, or that harddrives firmware probably doesn't support the "unload_immediate" feature, which is needed for hdaps to function correctly.
If not it can compromise system stability and harddrive lifetime, so you can damage your drive if it doesn't support the unload_immediate feature and use hdaps!

Thinkpad harddrives often have a special firmware, so you can't just buy any normal harddrive and still having hdaps work (some still work, as they support unload_immediate per default), but maybe you can try updating the firmware with lenovos harddrive firmware update cd (just if a x61s ever came with such a harddrive of that type of course..)

For more information look there: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_w ... hard_disks

[Ken Fox]

That harddrive, or that harddrives firmware probably doesn't support the "unload_immediate" feature, which is needed for hdaps to function correctly.
If not it can compromise system stability and harddrive lifetime, so you can damage your drive if it doesn't support the unload_immediate feature and use hdaps!

Thinkpad harddrives often have a special firmware, so you can't just buy any normal harddrive and still having hdaps work (some still work, as they support unload_immediate per default), but maybe you can try updating the firmware with lenovos harddrive firmware update cd (just if a x61s ever came with such a harddrive of that type of course..)

For more information look there: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_w ... hard_disks

I'm sorry, but the linked article has nothing whatever to do with what the OP is complaining about. The article to which you have linked has to do with EIDE drives placed in older systems (the T43 is the classic example) which use a SATA to IDE converter to allow IDE drives to be used in those systems.

To my knowledge there is no reason whatsoever why any SATA notebook drive of the correct form factor can't be used in a Thinkpad X61, other than if there some sort of weird incompatibility I've not yet read about.

I can't explain the OP's problem, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with the link you have provided.

ken

[bluesceada]

I'm sorry, but the linked article has nothing whatever to do with what the OP is complaining about. The article to which you have linked has to do with EIDE drives placed in older systems (the T43 is the classic example) which use a SATA to IDE converter to allow IDE drives to be used in those systems.

To my knowledge there is no reason whatsoever why any SATA notebook drive of the correct form factor can't be used in a Thinkpad X61, other than if there some sort of weird incompatibility I've not yet read about.

I can't explain the OP's problem, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with the link you have provided.

ken

I'm sorry, but you have not read the link thoroughly enough...

The posted link describes two different aspects:
1. The Error 2010 which occurs on older Thinkpad systems which is uninteresting in this case.
2. What the "UNLOAD IMMEDIATE" and "SECURITY FEATURE SET" ATA-features mean (which can be found on (S/P)ATA disks) which is interesting, as a drive which doesn't has the UNLOAD_IMMEDIATE feature can't push the heads in parking position fast, when laptop movement is detected, by the hdaps(hd active protection) sensor. (though it could issue a standard ata standbye command, but which could make other parts of the OS fail because of some I/O problems, resulting in a BSOD)

And yes, any sata drive should be able to be used, as it is a standard. They are compatible as a simple drive and should work like that, but not with special features like the harddisk protection, which needs "UNLOAD IMMEDIATE" which is not a standard sata feature.

To say it all in easy words:
1. Find out if the drive already supports unload immediate in the firmware it has
If yes -> sorry, then no clue; If no -> 2.
2. Find out if lenovo has a branded firmware for it by looking at what the X61 harddisk firmware update cd provides
If available -> 3a.; If not -> 3b.
3a. Update it, and see if you still get bluescreens
3b. Uninstall the harddisk protection system or buy another harddisk

Other than that, also no clue about that "hung up once", I know that some seagate drives did not work 100% to the ata standards as they would be supposed to (automatically entering some low-power spinned-down state and not being able to wake up)

Ah and here another link about the hdaps:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_w ... sk_parking

[Ken Fox]

I'm sorry, but you have not read the link thoroughly enough...

The posted link describes two different aspects:
1. The Error 2010 which occurs on older Thinkpad systems which is uninteresting in this case.
2. What the "UNLOAD IMMEDIATE" and "SECURITY FEATURE SET" ATA-features mean (which can be found on (S/P)ATA disks) which is interesting, as a drive which doesn't has the UNLOAD_IMMEDIATE feature can't push the heads in parking position fast, when laptop movement is detected, by the hdaps(hd active protection) sensor. (though it could issue a standard ata standbye command, but which could make other parts of the OS fail because of some I/O problems, resulting in a BSOD)

And yes, any sata drive should be able to be used, as it is a standard. They are compatible as a simple drive and should work like that, but not with special features like the harddisk protection, which needs "UNLOAD IMMEDIATE" which is not a standard sata feature.

To say it all in easy words:
1. Find out if the drive already supports unload immediate in the firmware it has
If yes -> sorry, then no clue; If no -> 2.
2. Find out if lenovo has a branded firmware for it by looking at what the X61 harddisk firmware update cd provides
If available -> 3a.; If not -> 3b.
3a. Update it, and see if you still get bluescreens
3b. Uninstall the harddisk protection system or buy another harddisk

Other than that, also no clue about that "hung up once", I know that some seagate drives did not work 100% to the ata standards as they would be supposed to (automatically entering some low-power spinned-down state and not being able to wake up)

Ah and here another link about the hdaps:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_w ... sk_parking

The articles you reference concern older thinkpad systems, nothing anywhere as recent as the one the OP has asked about.

I have not read reports about this sort of problem with any of the X6x or T6x systems using SATA drives; sorry.

And I have personally installed a wide variety of different SATA hard drives in X6x and T6x systems. These were various versions of generic Hitachi and Seagate 7200rpm SATA drives, ranging from first generation 100gb to current generation (up to) 320gb, and I've never had the slightest difficulty, no bluescreens whatever, and have never modified the firmware of any of these drives. I've done this at least 10 times, and since several hard drives have been in more than one system, I can fairly say I've done it 15 or more times, with perhaps 10 different generic drives. And yes, I use the Lenovo "hardisk protection." Maybe I just got lucky, but I doubt it. In fact, the X61s on which I type this, has a generic 320gb Hitachi 3rd generation 7k320 in it, with no modifications whatsoever.

I have however modified the firmware of 2 or 3 EIDE drives, in order to get them to work in my T43.

ken

[bluesceada]

The articles you reference concern older thinkpad systems, nothing anywhere as recent as the one the OP has asked about.

I have not read reports about this sort of problem with any of the X6x or T6x systems using SATA drives; sorry.

And I have personally installed a wide variety of different SATA hard drives in X6x and T6x systems. These were various versions of generic Hitachi and Seagate 7200rpm SATA drives, ranging from first generation 100gb to current generation (up to) 320gb, and I've never had the slightest difficulty, no bluescreens whatever, and have never modified the firmware of any of these drives. I've done this at least 10 times, and since several hard drives have been in more than one system, I can fairly say I've done it 15 or more times, with perhaps 10 different generic drives. And yes, I use the Lenovo "hardisk protection." Maybe I just got lucky, but I doubt it. In fact, the X61s on which I type this, has a generic 320gb Hitachi 3rd generation 7k320 in it, with no modifications whatsoever.

I have however modified the firmware of 2 or 3 EIDE drives, in order to get them to work in my T43.

ken

Ok, but that problem could still exist with some newer disks. As far as I know, unload_immediate is not a standard sata feature! It is definately needed for the active protection system to work accurately. Otherwise it might not work correct and just issue standbye commands to the drive. (I would look if the drives you put in those machines support that feature, or just use normal stanbye, which could reduce harddisk lifetime)

But as you say you have tested 10 different drives which were not from lenovo, and therefore didn't come with lenovos firmware.(?)
Which probably means it should work.

If it would be me, I would check, if the unload_immediate feature is supported... in Linux it's easy, just use "hdparm -I /dev/sda" look for something like "* IDLE_IMMEDIATE with UNLOAD".

Then I would look for other things... I would run some harddrive tests of course...

[pepelaz]

Stop code 0x000000F4 can be an error in virtually any piece of system critical hardware.
Since you are certain that this was caused by the HDD, you should test it to see if you have a defective hard drive.
There should be a BIOS level HDD diagnostic built into your system.
You can also try this...
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 70578.html

Thanks, I've checked my hdd using this tool and tests from SeaTools by Seagate (only "basic", because "advanced" warns about possible drive damage) and they found no problem.
This problem begin to occur when I replaced my old drive with this new one, so I strongly suspect hdd is a cause.
And turning off APS eliminates the BSOD. Hope there will be no hang ups any more.

Ah and here another link about the hdaps:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_w ... sk_parking

The very last line in the table on this page specifies hdd I have - same model, same firmware version. But it seems it does not work well with APS.

That harddrive, or that harddrives firmware probably doesn't support the "unload_immediate" feature, which is needed for hdaps to function correctly.

The line from the link above says:
Seagate ST9500325AS (500GB SATA) 0001SDM1 parked (specs mention UNLOAD capability + QuickStep)

Another owner of such drive and x61 says, that APS has problems with this drive:
http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/board/mess ... 3731#M3731

So, I'm not along. It seems there is some incompatibility between APS and ST9500325AS.

[bluesceada]

Ok, anyway, hdaps is just useful if you suspect your laptop to fall down or get hard knocks, and things like that...
If you are a careful person anyway, and don't use it in too "hard" situations, it won't help you much, other than that, it will be wasting a bit of battery time, and compromising your read speed in some situations where it is rather contraproductive (car, train...) (yes I know of the "keyboard detection" it has, but that doesn't kick in instantly of course)

[Ken Fox]

if I had to guess, the problem is with the Lenovo software, and not with Seagate's drive. You can't expect a hard drive manufacturer to design its products to work with buggy Lenovo software, and given a lot of experience with Lenovo's software, I'd label it the cause until proven otherwise . . . . .

ken

[pkiff]

Interestingly, I have this exact same drive, and I have started to run into blue screens on my X60T, and they seem to be associated with waking from suspend, moving the laptop, or working on an uneven surface. The error messages I've seen are not quite the same as reported above. One that I've seen more than once is something to do with a KERNEL error and not being able to write to a specific memory address.

I've started to follow some of the suggestions for resolution in this thread and will report back if anything seems to work.

Phil.

[templ]

remove (deinstall) ThinkVantage Active protection system!

Lenovo released new firmware for this drives. which will,i assume, make them compatible with APS!
(but firmware cant be fitted to original seagate drive) (((

Any chance to get new firmware for this drives?!

[pkiff]

I disabled the Thinkpad Active Protection System, and it has been about a week now without any blue screens or other such errors. So I guess that was indeed the culprit. There is no firmware upgrade for this drive available from Seagate, so I'm just going to completely uninstall the APS for good (as opposed to just disabling it).

Phil.