IPS Flexview SXGA+ - I am not so impressed

[wild_bill]

/begin rant

for all of this talk about how incredible the IPS Flexview screens are on the T60 series, I am quite underwhelmed. I have seen my own and several friends' SXGA+ displays, and it's a bit sad, let me state my case:


I have a 4:3 old school 1280x1024 19" Samsung desktop monitor, model 931B, which is a relatively low cost TN, rather than an expensive IPS, and was built about the same time in 2006 as my T60 with its Flexview. The Samsung 19" LCD is gorgeous and vivid and the colors just pop out, like a professional graphics workstation, while the T60 SXGA+ and UXGA screens I have seen are dull and lifeless and rather bland, like comparing a cheap digital camera to a 35mm pro model. The Samsung even has 300 nits brightness, whereas my T60 SXGA+ is like 200 (more like 100-150 seems to me).

Even power consumption in a laptop is no excuse, because I have the BIOS set for full power/brightness at all times, there is no excuse for using a quality compromised screen technology when most of the time laptops are plugged in. Why is this dim and washed out when the power is not even a consideration when the AC line power is attached?

Even the much ballyhooed vertical viewing angle is no better on the IBM T60 SXGA+ and UXGA's than the aforementioned Samsung desktop monitor. They are both great at all viewing angles, so this is no big advantage over the Samsung.

why is this? The IPS technology is supposed to be vastly superior to a TN screen, and it is not the color adjustment, because I adjusted both myself using both hardware and software based professional color calibration tools, and the Thinkpad has an ATI x1400 driving it, whereas my Samsung is driven by an antique Matrox G400 analog card.

so please enlighten me why all the fuss about these IPS Flexviews, that should be blowing away this Samsung 931B but instead are lagging behind it by a long shot!

PS - just so you won't think I am an old curmudgeon who hates everything, I actually love my T60 in almost all other respects, even when compared against the newest laptops (save for the magnesium frame that is cracked on every T60 ever made - check carefully next time you have it open near where the TAB key is, yours is broken too!)

[qviri]

I have a Samsung external TN screen. It is gorgeous and vivid and the colors just pop out and the yellow/green hues are totally off the mark when comparing my pictures on a IPS screen.

IPS is not supposed to be the shiniest and the brightest. It's the most accurate.

As for the VWA, I am not sure what to say - I can easily see the difference from even 60* off the perpendicular.

Also, I am unable to find a crack next to my Tab - which part exactly am I supposed to be looking at?

[Troels]

As Qviri pointed out, gorgeous and vivid does not mean that it is showing the truest color hue, in comparison to how it was "meant to be seen" - for a TN, you can be sure it doesn't. Accurate color doesn't sell a product - flatscreen TVs have a "shop setting" with strong vivid colors for the same reason - not saying that it's that severe though.
The UXGA of the R50p is able to show perfectly untinted grey, for all levels: http://www.notebookcheck.com/laptop/con ... ew/745/65/ (the figure with the CIE color chart)
What you do want is a larger color gamut, but it is a huge trade-off about how much storage you want to reserve for look-up tables vs. how fine a "grain" this gamut should be presented at.
Another trade-off is the quality of the color filters in a laptop LCD. You don't want to use substrates which absorb a lot of light, when there isn't much of it available already - which is especially the case with a single CCFL laptop display. Desktop displays usually have two CCFLs in the top and the bottom of the LCD.
The Flexviews are good LCDs, and probably the best you'd find in a laptop - at least according to http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_ ... -9876-9881 . I agree with you though, i get the impression that the LG philips flexview becomes rather dim. Definitely, it does sound like there are issues with it's CCFL.

The solution would be some kind of LED backlight type - except for the fact that they are now used to produce bliningly bright displays, and not always utilize more "dense" color filters with more absorbtion.

Viewing angles - not sure; the only reference i have which i remember is the 226BW, which inverts colors much earlier than any of the Flexview i have seen, especially in U/D viewing-angles.

Not totally sure on the frame crack either. I had to replace the keyboard bezel due to an accident, and received one which had a more tight fit than the original. Didn't see any cracks, biut am aware that one person or two have glued a crack which they found in that region.

[dr_st]

The Samsung even has 300 nits brightness, whereas my T60 SXGA+ is like 200 (more like 100-150 seems to me).

Well... High brightness does not make a good screen. For every day work in a normally lit environment you don't want more than 100nit anyways - more than that and your eyes will hurt. I can understand the point of this for games/movies. But even then, 200nits is probably a plenty. The only situation in which you really need more is for outdoor viewing. But... [begin_rant] high brightness sells, and is certainly easier to achieve than good contrast, so this is what manufacturers do. Well, that, and inventing the totally stupid pointless and fake "dynamic contrast" ratios. [end_rant].

However, as was mentioned by Troels:

I agree with you though, i get the impression that the LG philips flexview becomes rather dim. Definitely, it does sound like there are issues with it's CCFL.

Flexview screens (and basically all LCD screens) do tend to get dim with time. Perhaps on a Flexview it really is a more serious problem. I cannot be sure, but I can definitely tell you that, having replaced at this point 4 Flexview IPS screens under warranty for various minor defects, I've seen worlds of difference between 1.5-2 year old Flexviews and brand new ones in terms of brightness. The older Flexviews tend to be yellowish too. I regret not having taken a picture a few months ago when I actually had an old and a new Flexview side-by-side. The difference was very noticeable.

Even the much ballyhooed vertical viewing angle is no better on the IBM T60 SXGA+ and UXGA's than the aforementioned Samsung desktop monitor.

Well, you have not looked closely enough. Granted, desktop TN screens are much, much better than laptop TN screens in terms of vertical angle stability, but still nowhere near an IPS screen. However, to see real big difference you will probably have to view it from angles which you normally wouldn't. Or just load a dark scene (like a movie) and try examining it from various angles. TN screens tend to wash out / invert much faster when dark colors are involved.

(save for the magnesium frame that is cracked on every T60 ever made - check carefully next time you have it open near where the TAB key is, yours is broken too!)

You are talking about the narrow part of the frame above the VGA connector. I have two T60's (14" and 15"), and it isn't broken on either of them... But it is known as a common fault, and I think I had one T60 once where it was broken.

Viewing angles - not sure; the only reference i have which i remember is the 226BW, which inverts colors much earlier than any of the Flexview i have seen, especially in U/D viewing-angles.

That's easy, since IPS screens don't invert colors at all! That's just not part of the technology.

[wild_bill]

Flexview screens (and basically all LCD screens) do tend to get dim with time. Perhaps on a Flexview it really is a more serious problem. I cannot be sure, but I can definitely tell you that, having replaced at this point 4 Flexview IPS screens under warranty for various minor defects, I've seen worlds of difference between 1.5-2 year old Flexviews and brand new ones in terms of brightness. The older Flexviews tend to be yellowish too. I regret not having taken a picture a few months ago when I actually had an old and a new Flexview side-by-side. The difference was very noticeable.

well thanks for noticing , I think finally someone has stumbled on the real problem, as I have to admit that every Flexview I have ever seen was at least 2 years old (though one only had about an hour of use, so this must be time aging based on real time rather than run time.)

I have been afraid to send this system in to Easy Serv, as it runs so well, save for the smallest blemish on the screen and this screen yellowing/dimming/dulling. Since replacing the LCD is major surgery, I figured I should leave well enough alone, given some stories I have heard about Lenovo warranty service. But now I am not so sure.

You said LG Philips Flexview, is that what I have? (my Thinkpad warranty runs out this month - built in June 2006 if that tells you anything) Do other Flexview manufacturers (other OEM's) suffer from this same yellowing/dimming/dulling? What are my Flexview OEM choices if I bought and did myself compared to the best ones ever made? What OEM's screen is Easy Serv using for replacement these days?

[dr_st]

SXGA+ Flexview panels for T60 are made by LG-Philips and BOE-Hydis. UXGA is BOE-Hydis only.

What is the blemish you have on the screen? If it is covered under warranty, it might be a good idea to send it in. There are good chances you will receive a newer, brighter screen. If it is SXGA+, they can use either of the two compatible parts (or more if they have more compatible parts). They are not obliged to keep the same manufacturer, only to provide an SXGA+ IPS screen that is within the specifications.

[wild_bill]

SXGA+ Flexview panels for T60 are made by LG-Philips and BOE-Hydis. UXGA is BOE-Hydis only.

Are only the LG Philips screens affected by the age related dimming/yellowing/dull color - or are the BOE-Hydis affected as well?

Any way to check definitely what brand I have here without disassembling this display? I need something like CPU-Z for LCD panels

[ZaZ]

I have the LG IPS in my R60. It looks fantastic.

[qviri]

.

[wild_bill]

Everest (the system utility) states I have an LG Philips LP150E05-A2 which would fall perfectly in line with dr_st's theory about this particular Flexview problem being seen in Philips-made displays, or else he is a really good guesser!

[FrankL]

I currently have access to a T43 with SXGA+ IPS screen, a T60 with 14" TN SXGA+ screen and a T60p with UXGA IPS screen.

The T43 IPS screen is quite dim (probably because it's been used intensively for 3-4 years now). The T60p IPS screen is absolutely fantastic. Vivid colours, bright, very sharp/clear.

The T60 TN screen is horrid though! Inversion at the slightest vertical display angle, horrible colours, far too bright (washed out). I'd never trade in my dim T43 IPS screen for this T60 with TN.

Then again, some people don't seem to care much about stuff like viewing angles and colour accuracy. But whose fault is it when they get worked up about the wonders of flexview?

PS. neither T60 nor T60p shows cracks near the tab key, nor anywhere else. My T43 has quite a few cracks in several spots though, seemingly without affecting the integrity of the construction.

[jketzetera]

Are only the LG Philips screens affected by the age related dimming/yellowing/dull color - or are the BOE-Hydis affected as well?

Any way to check definitely what brand I have here without disassembling this display? I need something like CPU-Z for LCD panels

I am not sure if the yellowing effect on UXGA Flexviews is all age-related.

I bought a T60p UXGA Flexview for a relative off eBay and was very surprised to see the "color" difference between that T60p UXGA Flexview and my own T60p UXGA Flexview. When having the two T60p's side-by-side, the display of my T60p would have a distinct yellowish hue compared to the eBay one. However, the brightness of both screens was about equal and the eBay T60p was one year older than my T60p.

I still have the eBay T60p at home but unfortunately my digital camera is currently out of commission. I will try to take a side by side picture using my mobile phone and see if the difference in color shows.

[ssd_thinkpad]

Regarding the yellowish effect: I do not know if this could even be an advantage. My eizo monitor shows a yellowish picture when it is in "text modus: best office modus and healthy for your eyes". This modus is on except when I play movies or watch pictures. To have a similar experience when on-the-go, I made my not-yellowish thinkpad panel even more yellow by changing the parameteres (can be done in Windows 7 easily).

[Troels]

Yellow and darkening of the CCFL can be caused by depletion of mercury at the phosphor layer inside the CCFL. Polarizers may also be really sensitive towards UV rays, and like newspaper in the sun, it turns yellow.
This is quite some weasel talk, but i have been told that manufacturers do not expect/design the LCDs to last longer than the CCFLs - in other words, they may skimp on the longeivity of the LCDs, polarizer materials and color filters to fit the expected lifetime of the CCFL inside. For the same reason, no documents exist on maintenance of the LCD panel itself. The IPS panels are more expensive to produce than TN panels, so i'd hope they use premium components here also.

I.e., this is not something specific to specific flexview panel types, but the CCFL manufacturer. Another thing that might make it seem yellow is the color temperature - it is not one of the extra cool temperature CCFLs (e.g. 8-10K kelvin).

Wild_bill,
Hehe... i've read that everyone fears Ezserv a little, but i'd ship it to them, not only because of the screen, but also because of the crack you had with the chassis/roll cage. Just so that one crack doesn't cause more problems down the road (when it's out of warranty).

[beeblebrox]

I have repaired quite a few LCDs, some IPS as well.
The good LCDs use high quality CCFL with UV-Cut filters in the glass, so that the polarizers don't get damaged.
If the LCD has a yellow tint, then in 95% of cases it is an old or cheap CCFL. There are sh*t-quality cheap Chinese panels that don't survive 2 years (mainly noname generic notebooks).
But Thinkpads used to use high-end sources so changing the CCFL will remedy the yellow problem.

[LegendaryKA8]

I just purchased a T60 which has had a 15" UXGA IPS screen refitted. From what the seller told me the lid is brand new and the work was done at an authorized Lenovo repair center... he was selling the T60 because he could not get used to the UXGA resolution. I'm pretty sure this panel will be in top-notch shape and will be an excellent benchmark. Once it arrives, I'm willing to take pictures of this screen if anyone wants reference photos. Just let me know what you want to see, and provide any pictures/test patterns/etc you'd like for me to use. I suspect it'll take about two weeks for the T60 to arrive as it's coming from Canada, so please be patient.