70th anniversary of start of WWII

[mattbiernat]

At 0445 on 1 September 1939, the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein opened fire at point blank range on a Polish fort on the Westerplatte peninsula.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230678.stm

[sb102]

At 0445 on 1 September 1939, the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein opened fire at point blank range on a Polish fort on the Westerplatte peninsula.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230678.stm

Matt, that is technicaly correct, but the first attack on Poland had occured 5 minutes earlier (4:40 a.m.) - Luftwaffe performed a bombing run on a town named Wieluń (15 000 civilians, no strategical facilities). Why this action was performed ? Most of historicans agree that this was a part of a distyraction tactic - many people that had heard about this (even in towns and cities far away from the bombsite) started in panic leaving their homes and blocking roads and railroads - thus the Polish Army had troubles with arriving at the western border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Wielu%C5%84

Just to keep things correct.

[killer]

Around the time that the invasion of Poland took place a young man called Nicholas Winton was busy saving the lives of hundreds of Jewish children by transporting them to England by train. Sir Nicholas is now 100 years old. Article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8227929.stm

[mattbiernat]

Matt, that is technically correct, but the first attack on Poland had occurred 5 minutes earlier (4:40 a.m.) - Luftwaffe performed a bombing run on a town named Wieluń (15 000 civilians, no strategical facilities).

interesting, this makes me wonder whether the forces in Westerplatte were warned of a possible attack.

[sb102]

interesting, this makes me wonder whether the forces in Westerplatte were warned of a possible attack.

The forces in Westerplatte were warned of the attack - this is for sure, because on August 30th the Polish government had declared the mobilisation of the whole army (this means that ALL of the men between 18 and 50 years old had to go to the army). Also keep in mind that Poland was able to decipher all of the messages that the Nazi were isuing via The Enigma (a group of Polish matematicians: Marian Rejewski, Henryk Zygalski and Jerzy Różycki cracked the machines coding algorithm in 1932 - 7 years before World War II - and since it has became clear that the war will start, the Polish government had shipped a set of working replicas of the machine along with the complete documentation to France and England on the 25th of July 1939) - see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Cipher_Bureau

The thing that rendered the whole Polish Campaign helpless was the strategy that our government had taken. They had falsly thought, that England and France would perform a counter-campaign, entering Germany from its western borders, forcing the Nazis to retreat (they were obliged to do so - our diplomacy had signed a series of special treaties with their governments). On September 3rd England and France indeed stated, that they will honour the treaties and declared a war to the Nazi Germany. But on September 28th both of the allies stated that they would not send any army.

The rest is a well known history.

[killer]

After the declaration of war by Britain and France in September 1939, the British sent an expeditionary force (BEF) to France. The force was ill-equiped after years of disarmament policy. Certainly it could not have invaded Germany with any success as Germany had the latest equipment, modern tanks and a plethora of military aircraft. The BEF was evacuated from Dunkirk in 1940. Source material is available in lots of places but here is one: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O129-B ... Force.html

The incredible work done by Polish cryptoanalysts enabled Enigma messages to be decoded for a short while but then the cunning Germans added another wheel to the machine. This rendered all attempts at decoding useless. However, the invention of the world's first electronic computer (Colossus) and the Royal Navy's capture of code tables from a German weather ship in 1941 enabled the codes to be cracked once again.

[sb102]

Killer,

Please read this two links - it clearly shows that Rejewski's team could easily break the code of the Enigma up to 1938. Then the Germans modified it by adding two rotors (so the info that you provided about "a short period of time" is just wrong). So up untill 1941 everything could be done by the discoveries of Rejewski's team. Adding the new pair of rotors just made the process cost and time consuming. Also, the older Enigmas were still operational and quite heavily used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomba_(cryptography)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygalski_sheets

A cool thing about collosus is that it in fact was another generation of the Cipher Bureau criptic bomb.

Also keep in mind that Rejewski, Zygalski and Różycki continued their work at Bletchley Park - they had the biggest knowledge about the Enigma (before the war no other country in Europe thought that this could be even done).

[Marin85]

Not to forget the great contribution of Alan Turing, who was one of the leading forces in cracking the enigma code from British side.

Slightly off topic: according to this article, the design of Colossus started in 1943. Atanasoff-Berry computer (ABC) was built between 1939 and 1942, before ENIAC as well, but also before Colossus (provided the above mentioned article states the correct date).

The Atanasoff–Berry Computer (ABC) was the world's first electronic digital computer[1], but it was not programmable.[2] Conceived in 1937, the machine was designed only to solve systems of linear equations. It was successfully tested in 1942. However, its intermediate result storage mechanism, a paper card writer/reader, was unreliable, and when Atanasoff left Iowa State University for World War II assignments, work on the machine was discontinued.[3] The ABC pioneered important elements of modern computing, including binary arithmetic and electronic switching elements,[4] but its special-purpose nature and lack of a changeable, stored program distinguish it from modern computers.

John Vincent Atanasoff's and Clifford Berry's computer work was not widely known until it was rediscovered in the 1960s, amidst conflicting claims about the first instance of an electronic computer. At that time, the ENIAC was considered to be the first computer in the modern sense, but in 1973 a U.S. District Court invalidated the ENIAC patent and concluded that the ABC was the first "computer" (see Patent dispute).

[killer]

sb102,

Sorry if I made an error over the number of rotors added. The whole thing was shrouded in silence here for years because of the Official Secrets Act. It is only in recent years that we have been able to find out more and more. Even the existence of Colossus was unknown until relatively recent times and, therefore, people wrongly believed that the electronic computer had been invented in America.

My mother, who was an ATS radio operator receiving coded messages and passing them to Bletchley Park, would speak nothing of it until decades later. On reflection I admire that kind of spirit.

One thing is certain, the Polish contribution to the whole project of decoding Enigmas messages was enormous.

... and, as Marin85 kindly points out, the genius of Alan Turing should be lauded.

[Marin85]

Even the existence of Colossus was unknown until relatively recent times and, therefore, people wrongly believed that the electronic computer had been invented in America.

Maybe we should start a new thread about who invented the first computer and where That event is actually fundamental to our forum

I believe the first leaks/disclosures about Colossus started in the early '70s. From the now available information on this topic it seems that in fact the Colossus appeared about an year later than ABC...

Cheers,

Marin

[sb102]

killer,

You weren't wrong about the number of rotors - the Kriegsmarine in fact used a slightly different working version of the Enigma - M4. But there were also versions utilising up to 12 rotors ! (mainly in use by the Luftwaffe in the last days of the war).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

Also I don't understand what was so secret, that the authorities hid the info about Enigma. In Poland this was a well-known fact. To be honest in the early 80's a drama film was made about the works of the Bureau (of course it's in Polish).

Marin85

Would you belive it that the first computer machine (that is complete with the Turing theorems) was build in May 1941 in Germany ? It's called Z3 (builder - Konrad Zuse). Although not electronical (it utilised electromagnetic relays and not Cathode Vacuum Tubes - this is why most people do not concider it a computer - in my opinion they are wrong), it was a Turing machine (up until 1998 it was thought that it isn't).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z3_(computer)

[hausman]

Maybe we should start a new thread about who invented the first computer and where

Let me guess

As for Alan Turing, Brits should sign this petition. Alas, even though Lizzie Windsor is my head of state, I'm not eligible to participate (and I have to queue up with the rest of the non-EU riff-raff at UK airport arrivals )

[killer]

Hi Dorian,

IMO, it's (rhymes with clucking) stupid to prevent you from not being a privileged entrant to the UK. The world has gone mad with bureaucracy. Anyway it is bad enough entering the UK from almost anywhere now as the government at the time didn't subscribe to the policy of free transit within the EU. So we all have to queue up at most ports whatever nationality we are. At the airports UK and EU citizens get an easier route but no shortage of bloody-mindedness. All the same it is easier than a Brit entering the US ... ask Yusuf Islam!

We are well off topic now, excuse the rant, but had it not been for Canadians we'd have been, as they say, 'Up the Khyber' in 1939.

ERII is a lovely lady and I wish her well. She has about as much power as a f@rt in a colander so please don't blame her directly. She did do wartime service though.

I have signed the Alan Turing petition. Thank you for bringing it to my intention.

[hausman]

IMO, it's (rhymes with clucking) stupid to prevent you from not being a privileged entrant to the UK.

I recall many years ago queuing up at Heathrow in the "British Subjects" queue which was about a tenth the length of the "Others" queue. When my wife and I got to the counter we were "welcomed" with a stern lecture about queue jumping and told that Canadians aren't eligible to use this queue. That the first page of our Canadian passports read, "The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada, in the name of Her Majesty the Queen, ..." was apparently irrelevant.

(And to bring this back on topic, my dad, after being a guest of Stalin from 1939 to 1941, served with the Anders Army under British command in the mid-east. My wife's father and all of his brothers served in the RCAF during the war as well.)

[Marin85]

Would you believe it that the first computer machine (that is complete with the Turing theorems) was build in May 1941 in Germany ? It's called Z3 (builder - Konrad Zuse). Although not electronical (it utilized electromagnetic relays and not Cathode Vacuum Tubes - this is why most people do not consider it a computer - in my opinion they are wrong), it was a Turing machine (up until 1998 it was thought that it isn't).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z3_(computer)

Actually, I would believe that (In fact, I have already seen a real Z3 (guess where ) ) That´s why I suggested a new thread. It would be interesting to hear opinions/comments from ThinkPadders. In fact, Í´m just about to start it.


Marin

[hausman]

In fact, I have already seen a real Z3 (guess where

OK, let me guess again

And while we're there, see this too.

When I visited the DM it made me feel really old when I saw an IBM S/360 M30 on display. That was my first "personal computer." (I'd come in to the data centre late on Sunday nights to test systems software.) It was even a modded system with third-party core memory that gave it a whopping 128kB of RAM

[killer]

To start to bring things on topic again, Colossus was the first programmable electronic computer. In other words it was the first one that was useable for any useful purpose.

To put it another way, someone could say they invented the steam engine because they boiled a kettle to make tea ... but that was not an engine, merely a kettle.

A computer must be able to do repetitive tasks in order to save human effort and not just 'make one or two cups of tea'. Colossus did that in spades and at least 10 were produced in order to decode encrypted messages.

Colossus was significant in the war effort. It decoded Enigma signals far quicker than any human, and it did it time and time again.

Now which came first? Was it Charles Babbage's difference engine or the GPO's Colossus?

The thing is that without the Polish mathematicians and cryptoanalysts, Alan Turing, the GPO, several egg-heads and boffins conscripted from British (ie. Commonwealth) military intelligence then the whole thing would never have taken off.
The world has a debt to these people and, if I wore a hat, I'd take it off to them.

[mattbiernat]

Germany had the latest equipment, modern tanks and a plethora of military aircraft.

I beg to disagree, on September 1st 1939, the german army did not have the most modern equipment, as a matter of fact most of their army was still horse drawn. They had less tanks, less aircraft, less men and much smaller navy than combined Polish, French and British forces. It was the brilliance of the German commanders in adopting blizkierg while the Polish generals were still using old WWI tactics. And also their ability to secure Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and the lack of response from the French and the British (who also seemed to have counted on the defensive war).

thank God we now have peace in Europe

[Kyocera]

Gee, I wonder how long this interesting thread will take to get moved to the dumpster.

[killer]

mattbiernat,

Blitzkrieg was a new phenomenon. It worked a treat for the nazis.

Their forces had Panzer tanks, Meschersmitt 109 fighters, Stuka dive bombers, ME110 fighter bombers, Focke-Wulfe fighters, Dornier bombers, Heinkel bombers, pocket battleships, U-boats, and horses. Everyone they opposed was grist to the mill.

France had the maginot line. It was built after the great war and was useless.

Apart from new introductions to the arsenal, Britain had first world war weapons, biplanes (like the Gloster Gladiator), and out-of-date ships. Rearmament with Hurricanes and Spitfires took time and money.

We invented tanks but by 1939 Germany had taken that invention several steps further. A visit to the world-famous tank museum in Bovington will confirm that.

Our Home Guard (originally Local Defence Volunteers) had shotguns and home-made weapons. Not much use against a horse!

[killer]

Gee, I wonder how long this interesting thread will take to get moved to the dumpster.

I met a US General in 1994. He had attended the D-Day celebrations in Normandy (he had taken part in the landings in 1944) and was then having a holiday in France. We had dinner together near Beaujeu. He thought that the US should have been involved from 1939 and stopped the nazis in their tracks. A German couple were there as well. They thought the same.

BTW, I had to look up the meaning of dumpster and I am still unsure of its connection to world history. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain.

[Kyocera]

Several years ago I had lunch with Lufwaffe General Klaus Von Wikenpidiahh and he expressed a great deal of angst that the US got involved in WWII, he was sure the United Kingdom could win their own battles, without those war mongering americans, he said, and I quote from the actual 8 track recording I have in an archive "those stuuped var mongerinkghen americians" then he spit on the floor, right there in the nudie bar. He still had some wrinkled up Top Secret documents in his pockets that I took pictures of with my James Bond camera, that clearly showed the U.K. leading the Germans by 20 points with nearly 4 hours left to fight and the germans were out of ammo. Then some american ammunition planes crashed (well actually they didn't "crash" these planes were full of american immigrants trying to get into the U.K. illegally and had stowed away on these large ammunition planes) on the western front supplying the germans with enough ammo to keep the war going another 2 years. He was so right. Then he reached in his shirt pocket of his tattered bullet hole ridden WWII outfit and pulled out a single tarnished 7.62 mm tracer round and clenched it with a shaky old hand and started to weep and mumble in german, then he started singing german submarine WWII songs and danced a jig, he told me of his dog of twenty years up and died, yes he up and died, but that's another story.

I'm just sayin

My original reply to you was deleted, so i'm being censored now, freaking amazing LOL, keep hatin the US there kuller, you have open arms here old chap. Maybe you're among friends even.

[BillMorrow]

gentlemen..
please keep on topic..
and do not "snipe" at each other..

my contribution to this thread is a paraphrase of pax romana, which is pax americana..

peace through strength..

that german couple and that soldier all dining in france and agreeing that hitler should have been stopped early on all fail to understand the politics of such a situation..

roosevelt (bless his liberal heart) could see what was coming but a pacifist america wanted no part of yet another european war..
had FDR gone in he would have ended up like george w. bush, with a war that no one wanted to take "ownership" of..
and he would have been defeated in the next presidential election in 1940..
would his republican successor have been able to forsee what FDR was seeing.. maybe, maybe not..

fortunately FDR and Churchill could see and acted accordingly..

could the brits and french helped poland by attacking germany on their flank..?
this is a subjuect for speculative fiction..

but this discussion does show a little of the reasoning i use when pushing a conservative and "peace through strength" agenda..

it has been said that one reason the japanese did not invade the west coast is they knew that americans were armed.. i don't know how true that is but if australia's recent experience with gun control and crime rates has any instructive value it should be obvious to all (especially those disarmed before being killed by their governments, watching from heaven or whereever) that a well armed population is a really courteous population..

examples abound..

i wonder what the situation was in poland when the nazi germans invaded..?

[bill bolton]

but if australia's recent experience with gun control and crime rates has any instructive value

Um... what experience would that be?

I'm guessing that it is something that has been reported in the US, as no one much here is disputing anything about the clear community benefits that have arisen from the post Port Arthur massacre focus on gun control.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[sb102]

could the brits and french helped poland by attacking germany on their flank..?
this is a subjuect for speculative fiction..

Bill - this is not a speculation. Read these two articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Bri ... fence_Pact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Pol ... y_Alliance

Like I said, tour government had signed declarations with them, so they were OBLIGED to help by using military forces.

i wonder what the situation was in poland when the nazi germans invaded..?

I do not quite understand what do you mean by that. Do you want to know what kind of internal situation was in Poland ? Or perhaps you want to know what were the causes of the attack ?

This MIGHT provide the answers you need - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

[mattbiernat]

could the brits and french helped poland by attacking germany on their flank..?
this is a subjuect for speculative fiction..

hmm imagine that you go out for a beer with two of your buddies and you get in a fight with a guy twice your size. could two of your friends make a difference in the fight? maybe or maybe not but thats for sure better than standing around and looking at you getting your a$$ kicked.

[BillMorrow]

but if australia's recent experience with gun control and crime rates has any instructive value

Um... what experience would that be?

I'm guessing that it is something that has been reported in the US, as no one much here is disputing anything about the clear community benefits that have arisen from the post Port Arthur massacre focus on gun control.

Cheers,

Bill B.

this is the report:
from 2001 it seems!

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by
new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their
own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500
million dollars. The first year results are now in:

List of 7 items:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent.

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300
percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in
armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the
past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is
unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the
ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was
expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The
Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

now this might be a case of using stats creatively..

there is THIS:

Please find below a detailed response to each claim made in the email entitled "About Australia".

Claim One:
* Homicides are up 3.2%
* Assaults are up 8.6%
* Armed robberies are up 44%
Response:
These figures compare 1996 with 1997 figures and were correct at that time.
(Data source: Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) Recorded Crime 1997, Table 1.1, p .

Claim Two:
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in the past 12 months).
Response:
Actual figures from the ABS do show an increase in armed robbery from 1995 (5258) to 1996 (6256) to 1997 (9054) to 1998 (10850), but the proportion of firearms used to commit armed robbery has continued to decline over this period:
1995 - 27.8%
1996 - 25.3%
1997 - 24.1%
1998 - 17.6%
1999 - 15.2%
2000 - 14.0%

Claim Three:
In the state of Victoria homicides with firearms are up 300%
Response:
Victoria recorded 7 firearm-related homicides in 1996, and 19 firearm-related homicides in 1997. That number has now fallen.
1996 - 7
1997 - 19 (171.4% increase from 1996 to 1997)
1998 - 17 (10.5% decrease from 1997 to 1998).
1999 - 14 (17.6% decrease from 1998 to 1999).

Claim Four:
There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly
Response:
According to the 1998 ABS Crime and Safety Survey "households with persons aged 55 years and over had a lower risk of break-in victimisation compared with other households" (page 27).
According to the ABS Recorded Crime:
1996 - 1474 victims of assault aged 65 and over
1997 - 1662 victims of assault aged 65 and over (12.8% increase from '96 to '97)
1998 - 1663 victims of assault aged 65 and over (0.06% increase from '97 to '98)
1999 - 1793 victims of assault aged 65 and over (7.8% increase from '98 to '99).

Further information on firearm-related homicide and firearm-related injuries in Australia can be downloaded from the AIC website:

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi198.html
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi187.html
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi151.html

note that the links above might be broken

now, we all know that stats can be twisted to prove most anything that is wanted..
the recent healthcare discussion unpleasantness on this forum had a figure of 47 odd million uninsured people all needing immediate free health care..
when in actuality, once the illegal aliens, the people making over $75k a year who chose NOT to buy health insurance & the young who consider themselves immortal were subtracted, a more real total of 10 million is reached..
of course if you are one of that 10 million with some life threatening disease it matters little if its 10 million or two, if you are one, its bad!

i figured bill bolton would pick up on the OZ reference and make a comment but this is all drifting a bit astray..

i asked if the polish people had been armed with weapons for self defense would that NOT have slowed the german advance into poland..?

i am told that the swiss actually either require each household to have a weapon or they supply one along with training..

it all comes down to one of my core beliefs, which is when the s*it hits the fan you must be prepared to take care of yourself.. i learned this aboard my boats..
the ocean is BIG and you are really ALONE and you must be prepared for all reasonable contingincies..

an armed population is not so easy to invade..

[BillMorrow]

i wonder what the situation was in poland when the nazi germans invaded..?

I do not quite understand what do you mean by that. Do you want to know what kind of internal situation was in Poland ? Or perhaps you want to know what were the causes of the attack ?

This MIGHT provide the answers you need - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

nono..
sorry.. it was not well expressed..
what i was asking is, were polish citizens able to keep weapons for self defense..?
here in the USA we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms..
which it is said disuaded the japanese from invading the west coast (no mention was made of their supply lines being so long or vulnerable)..

SO, would a well armed and really angry polish people have put up a fight against german invaders.. ?
as i understand it this is not exactly the first time poland was used as a place to fight..
if this is the case i would expect that the polish would have had a well armed civilian self defense force..

[BillMorrow]

could the brits and french helped poland by attacking germany on their flank..?
this is a subjuect for speculative fiction..

hmm imagine that you go out for a beer with two of your buddies and you get in a fight with a guy twice your size. could two of your friends make a difference in the fight? maybe or maybe not but thats for sure better than standing around and looking at you getting your a$$ kicked.

first, i don't drink but if i did and i was out and about as stated, in the above situation, my feet would be doing their job and all that big guy would see is A$$ and ELBOWS..

good sense dictates that you not get involved in silly brawls..
besides i am too small, old and sore to brawl with anyone without a really superior advantage..

i know what you're saying but would france and the UK have been able to help poland..?
and at what cost..?
its always easy to second guess someones decisions from your armchair..
but not so easy when in the thick of "things" with adrenalin washing through your system..!

there are always videos of cops beating the crap out of someone..
not a good thing to judge without being there..
as the recent thing with the cop, the rowdy harvard prof and our president making silly comments will show..
my daddy used to say: Judge slowly..

[BillMorrow]

could the brits and french helped poland by attacking germany on their flank..?
this is a subjuect for speculative fiction..

Bill - this is not a speculation. Read these two articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Bri ... fence_Pact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Pol ... y_Alliance

Like I said, our government had signed declarations with them, so they were OBLIGED to help by using military forces.

well, maybe not so much..
the french seemed to be pretty much out of their 1921 pact by 1939 and the brits..?
well, nevill chamberlin did not seem to be very much the man to be depended upon in a fist fight..