The premium on a Thinkpad machine?

[raisindot]

And going to your local (insert store here) and comparing is like looking at Mercedes and Ford. There is no comparison as they are made for different markets. IBM has always been marketed as a BUSINESS machine while you are comparing it to a CONSUMER model. Some companies produce business models that are far superior to what they offer to the general public. As far as the service and support, yes it is good, but then that is what you are paying for. An extremely heavy premium IMO...

...They can only provide such support because they are still small. If they had reached the proportions of a Dell or HP/Compaq, then their service and support would have gone downhill like everybody else. And even with that heavy premium, they still sold it off because they weren't making enough of a profit. Pretty much tells me that you can expect a drop in quality and support as Levino begins to crank out and sell many more notebooks than IBM ever did. IBM got out from under it and Levino will have to step up production and sales to recoup their investment.

The business to consumer argument is valid--we are, after all, buying machines that a company would buy for its employees. But the large vs. small production scale argument is debatable. Whenever I see a laptop used by a businessperson on a train, in an airport, at a hotel, etc. it is also always a Thinkpad. Which means that there must be thousands more being used by employees in those businesses. This seems to imply that IBM is able to crank these out in very high quantities. However, there is no evidence to support the argument that once Levino starts making them that they will suddenly "flood the market" with lower-quality cheapsters. Yes, they need to make a profit, but the corporate market (which is where IBM makes most of its profits) is still a far more limited market than the consumer market. To maintain customer loyalty to the Thinkpad brand, they will have to maintain the high product and service standards of the brand, otherwise, people will turn away from it...the only question at this point is: to what will they turn, since nothing out there even approaches TP quality....

Jeff in Boston

[JHEM]

The T43's have integrated Intel graphics

Yes, but I believe that's based on a PCI Express card? Not really the same thing? And it's only applicable to a few T43 models.

R40E has the ATI RADEON IGP 330M

Yes, it's built into the Northbridge, but it has 16MB of dedicated memory and doesn't "share" any with the unit's main memory. Or not?

R series have Intel Extreme Graphics2

You can't make that a blanket statement. SOME R series, not all, e.g., the R50E has integrated (shared) memory.

Thanks for the input, I hadn't thought of these models as having integrated graphics cards, but the fact remains that they're only a very small portion of overall Thinkpad production over the years, the majority of which have/had dedicated video cards.

Regards,

James

[slagmi]

There was a long period of time when Thinkpad innovation /engineering was a year ahead of anything else you could buy. That may not be so true today; the lead has narrowed.

In particular regarding 'gaming notebooks' there's at least one vendor selling a notebook with upgradable video. Until now, that's been the Achilles heel of notebooks for gaming. They've been useful for games for a year or two at best.

Regardless of what happens afterwards the next year of Thinkpads will be a continuation and improvement on what's available now, and so worth the premium!

I too bought a different brand of laptop & came back. Nuff said there!

So, besides all the aforementioned reasons,

Compatibility! Personally, I've never found any software that won't load and run on the Thinkpad. That was maybe an even bigger statement in 1994 than it is now, though. Never been unable to get RAM or a PC-Card to work, either.

Reliability! I can count the times any of my Thinkpads has ever mysteriously locked up on one hand...without using most of my fingers. I've literally went 4-wheeling with a 90's era Thinkpad (in it's Targus bag) bouncing around in the back. I wasn't even worried about whether it would be OK and of course it was!

[rideDPU]

Along the engineering lines...the battery has two curved surfaces that facilitate a nice little gripping action when carrying it around. I never noticed it until I went to pick up a friend's Dell. Small touches like that are priceless to me.

Mark

[rhema83]

I shall not treat this thread as an "ode to Thinkpad" thread. However, I am extremely happy with my T42. It is a joy to use and the compactness and light weight are simply unmatched. Anyway which other business class notebook has a 64MB Radeon 9600 running a 14" SXGA+ screen? Even college students who play games can't complain.

The starter of this thread commented that we are paying a high premium. I beg to differ, because other similar-spec'ed machines don't cost any less. I did extensive research before purchasing my T42-FVU last August and it simply had the most bang for my buck at that time. I upgraded my warranty to 3 years, bought 512MB of RAM from Crucial and the total cost was still under $2000 then.

Customer service was great. I asked for the recovery CDs (it was available free for the first 30 days that time) and it was sent to be by overnight air! I requested for Lotus SmartSuite and got it within a week, too. I was really impressed. I was dissatisfied with my keyboard and they sent me a replacement by overnight air again. Where else can you find such prompt response and speedy delivery?

Indeed we might pay more, but we get more, too. "Pay for quality and cry once." I was smiling and I am still smiling!

[edbatista]

I'm a dedicated ThinkPad user for a number of reasons, but they basically boil down to three general areas:

1) Sold Construction. ThinkPads are simply more solid than any other laptop I've ever seen. Macs and some Sonys come reasonably close, but the Thinkpad keyboards ultimately make the difference. When you spend as much time with a machine as I do, it really makes a difference if the thing feels well-built, and ThinkPads are the best.

2) Company Support. I've had two ThinkPads in the last four years, one for work and one for personal use, and my wife has one as well. I had some hardware problems with my work T23--the display burned out and the hard drive needed to be replaced--and some software problems with my personal T40--the wireless card didn't play nice with Win XP SP2. But every time, IBM was extremely helpful, going above and beyond the call of duty, IMO, to make sure I was satisfied. I just don't think I'd get this level of support from another manufacturer, with the possible exception of Apple.

3) Community Support. Just look around at this user group--as a ThinkPad user, you have access to an incredibly generous community of colleagues who will go out of their way to help you. Apple users are the only others, AFAIK, who are as passionate and helpful.

When I recently replaced my work T23 with my personal T40, I considered a lot of alternatives--but in the end I just didn't want to work on anything but a ThinkPad. It helped--a lot--that IBM has an excellent certified reconditioned program. Here's how you can find used models directly on IBM's site, all for big discounts:

IBM.com > Products > Clearance Corner > Certified Used Equipment > Notebooks

My software problems with the T40 were basically the result of my own stupidity, and it's running without a hitch right now--I have no complaints and definitely recommend the certified reconditioned program as a way to get all the benefits of owning a ThinkPad when you can't afford the list price.

[egibbs]

In particular regarding 'gaming notebooks' there's at least one vendor selling a notebook with upgradable video.

There are also several vendors selling laptops with desktop processors. I wonder why IBM doesn't do that... Oh wait - because it's a really bad idea!

Pick up one of those 10 pound monsters, or worse yet turn it on and listen to the roar of the 600 CFM blower it takes to keep the processor from melting off the board and you begin to understand that it is a laptop in name only.

Of course I'm not a gamer, so maybe i don't understand the need. But I do a bit of video editing on occasion and some fairly heavy duty 2-D graphics work, and both my T20 and T42p have no problems. And I can pick them up and toss them in my bag without a second thought.

Ed Gibbs

[beeblebrox]

In particular regarding 'gaming notebooks' there's at least one vendor selling a notebook with upgradable video.

There are also several vendors selling laptops with desktop processors. I wonder why IBM doesn't do that... Oh wait - because it's a really bad idea!

Pick up one of those 10 pound monsters, or worse yet turn it on and listen to the roar of the 600 CFM blower it takes to keep the processor from melting off the board and you begin to understand that it is a laptop in name only.

Of course I'm not a gamer, so maybe i don't understand the need. But I do a bit of video editing on occasion and some fairly heavy duty 2-D graphics work, and both my T20 and T42p have no problems. And I can pick them up and toss them in my bag without a second thought.

Ed Gibbs

I am not sure if you really understand marketing and the target markets. If there is a large market of cheap desktop-notebooks with a powerful Pentium 4 Prescott or whatever then I don't think it is anybody's complain to not serve this market. A lot of companies sold huge loads of those "hot" desktop monsters, so somebody got reach. Certainly not IBM, because they target a very different market.
I think the discussion is similar to the flaming between AMD and Intel fanatics. Of course, it seems reasonable to accept that AMD CPUs are far better than the superhot Intel Prescotts. Agreed?
However, Intel made an obscene fortune on those Pentium 4's while AMD had an uphill struggle. Still, Intel makes more profit per quarter than AMD in revenues per year.
If Dell sells obscene amounts of hot Pentium 4 "Desknotes", while other companies snob at that technology, guess who is the jerk?
The one making a fortune or that one trying to sell "better" technology?

IBM has sold over 20 Mio Thinkpads, that's why you see them in business. However, IBM in TOTAL is really small compared to Dell. That's economies of scale and scope when building notebooks.

Again, IBM has a niche market (solely Business) and they have never been profitable. You can fight that by better R&D (IBM approach) or by better economies of scale (Dell). It always depends on the buyer to chose who will win (Dell).

[stgreek]

I think the discussion is similar to the flaming between AMD and Intel fanatics. Of course, it seems reasonable to accept that AMD CPUs are far better than the superhot Intel Prescotts. Agreed?
However, Intel made an obscene fortune on those Pentium 4's while AMD had an uphill struggle. Still, Intel makes more profit per quarter than AMD in revenues per year.

No, of course not. AMD CPUs are technically superior, however they are still (wrongfully) accused of being far more unstable than the Intel ones. A tech savvy person will know that this has no basis, however one that shops at a local superstore will simply listen to what they are told.

If Dell sells obscene amounts of hot Pentium 4 "Desknotes", while other companies snob at that technology, guess who is the jerk?
The one making a fortune or that one trying to sell "better" technology?

In financial terms, everyone else. However, give me one technical advancement that Dell has offered to the world. Exactly. ZERO. Marketing is one thing, the human need for innovation and progress is another. If it was all about money, you would not be writing on this board since PHP, your browser (unless you use IE) and the WWW would not have existed.

IBM has sold over 20 Mio Thinkpads, that's why you see them in business. However, IBM in TOTAL is really small compared to Dell. That's economies of scale and scope when building notebooks.

I hope you mean the notebook division, otherwise Dell ( and pretty much every other company on this planet, including Microsoft) is dwarfed when put against IBM.

Again, IBM has a niche market (solely Business) and they have never been profitable. You can fight that by better R&D (IBM approach) or by better economies of scale (Dell). It always depends on the buyer to chose who will win (Dell).

Niche? If business was a niche market IBM would be long dead, no matter what their R&D came up with. The point most of the people in this thread try to make is that they rather pay extra for something superior than go with the masses that compromise the quality for a better price.

Besides, the fact that chinese/taiwanese manufacturers flood the market with low quality no-name cheap stuff that many people buy does not mean that more reputable companies go out of business because of them. If I want a cheap thing that won't last, I will happily buy from the no-name manufacturer. If I want something decent, I'll pay the premium and buy from a decent brand. In this case, Dell is the chinese manufacturer while IBM is the decent brand. Simple as that.

(Mind you, this is an analogy, it does not mean that dells are complete rubbish)

[slagmi]

Ed,

IBM's latest 'desktop replacements', the G40 and G41 do indeed have desktop proscessors and the accompanying large fans and heatsinks and do indeed weigh close to 10 pounds.

But the G-series curiously have integrated graphics that use system RAM.
Not for gaming!

There is demand for gaming notebooks. The current best IBM gaming solution, T42 with 128MB ATI 9600 is merely OK from a true gamers perspective (though I would be pleased as pie with it, and I play a few shooter & sim games).

[asiafish]

I've owned a number of laptops over the years, and twice yearly I buy a bunch of off-lease machines, clean them up, and sell on eBay in time for back-to-school. I used to buy just on price, but now I stick entirely to ThinkPads, high end Toshiba (Tecra and Portege only) and Apple.

Of all of these, nothing comes close to the build-quality of a T or X series ThinkPad, and while I feel the quality has dropped a bit in recent years, it is still worlds better than anything else on the market, even Apple.

Currently I own two laptops (usually have two), one Apple and one Wintel. My current Apple is the newest 12" PowerBook, which despite its small size, makes an excellent primary computer. It even has a keyboard that is every bit as good as IBM.

My second machine is a ThinkPad T22, 1.0GHz Pentium III with 512MB ram and a 30GB drive.

For comparison, I recently configured a brand-new T42 for a friend, and had it side-by-side with my T22 and 12" PowerBook.

The T42 keyboard wasn't quite as crisp as the one on the T22. The T42 was a tad thinner and lighter. THat's it, otherwise, they feel about the same. WHat is amazing is that my T22 felt as good as that brand-new T42 despite 4 years of real use. That is why I pay extra to buy ThinkPads, and hopefully Lenovo won't mess with that.

Of course that same quality is also the reason why I will not buy a T42. Don't get me wrong, the T42 is a fabulous machine, but my T22 has held up so well that it would be silly to retire it now. 1.0 GHz is still extremely fast with WIndows XP Pro and 512MB of RAM is still more than enough for the business tasks that I use this for. This was never meant to be a gaming machine, and I do serious multimedia stuff (video editing) on the Apple (hooked up to a 19" LCD). This one is never asked to do anything more difficult than creating PowerPoint presentations (with music and animation) or to play back DVD movies, both of which are no sweat for this four-year-old machine.

My T22 even looks new. Sure, I lost a few of those little black screw covers on the display bezel and sides, but other than that, it is like-new. It is still fast, it still looks and feels new, it is still absolutely reliable, so there is no reason yet to buy a new one.

Actually I think that many people who think their older computers are slow, really just have problems with spyware and other junk slowing them down. Sure, there are people who render video on their laptops, but not many. Most of use use them for documents, perhaps photos, watching movies, and accessing websites and email. For these tasks, even a 700MHz Pentium III is more than fast enough, even with the latest patches on top of Windows XP. The trick is to get rid of the gunk.

Of course games are very demanding, and will render any laptop obsolete VERY quickly. My new Apple will play the current new crop of games (fewer games for Mac), but only for another year or so.

[Leon]

good post, asiafish.... welcome to our Forum!

[asiafish]

Seems to be a pretty good bunch of people over here. I'm on a few Apple boards as well, and while they also have very knowledgeable people, there tend to be a lot of over-evangelical types over there, who believe anything negative that is said about Apple or Steve Jobs should be punnished by death.

[halfcard]

Seems to be a pretty good bunch of people over here. I'm on a few Apple boards as well, and while they also have very knowledgeable people, there tend to be a lot of over-evangelical types over there, who believe anything negative that is said about Apple or Steve Jobs should be punnished by death.

LOL!

[stgreek]

Seems to be a pretty good bunch of people over here. I'm on a few Apple boards as well, and while they also have very knowledgeable people, there tend to be a lot of over-evangelical types over there, who believe anything negative that is said about Apple or Steve Jobs should be punnished by death.

We don't punish them by death here, we force them to buy Dells and then use their technical support

[asiafish]

It would take an act of congress, and massive bribes to get me on a Dell laptop. Even then, I'd still have my Apple or IBM hidden somewhere, to use when nobody's looking.

[daeojkim]

About the comment on target market. This is absolutely right. I would not recommend TP for hardcore 3D gamers. But to do real productive work, reliable top notch service and quality. Definitely TP.

They call it IBM (International "Business" Machine) for a reason not
IGM.

[rhema83]

About the comment on target market. This is absolutely right. I would not recommend TP for hardcore 3D gamers. But to do real productive work, reliable top notch service and quality. Definitely TP.

They call it IBM (International "Business" Machine) for a reason not
IGM.

Well, my T42 runs 3D games pretty well nonetheless... It's the best gaming "business" machine on the market! You know it's good when professionals AND college students are both giving rave reviews.

[daeojkim]

About the comment on target market. This is absolutely right. I would not recommend TP for hardcore 3D gamers. But to do real productive work, reliable top notch service and quality. Definitely TP.

They call it IBM (International "Business" Machine) for a reason not
IGM.

Well, my T42 runs 3D games pretty well nonetheless... It's the best gaming "business" machine on the market! You know it's good when professionals AND college students are both giving rave reviews.

That is true, it runs most 3D games fairly well, but not to the level for hardcore gamers as I have mentioned. Try to run DOOM3 at high resolution and high details... it runs but pretty choppy.
I have run serious SAM and counter strike and run pretty well. I am not a hardcore gamer.. don't have time even though I love video games LOL.
It runs starcraft like a champ (the only game I play now, requires so much thought and strategy ) then again so did my Pentium 166Mhz computer.

So for high performance game laptop I would go for DELL XPS or Alienware. They may not last as long, but gamers need to change their hardware quite often as well.

For long lasting laptop.. IBM

[daeojkim]

Sorry to be a post whore but this stories like this why we are paying for the extra premium

OJ vs. Thinkpad story

[rhema83]

Sorry to be a post whore but this stories like this why we are paying for the extra premium

OJ vs. Thinkpad story

Read it. Awesome story. I received mine by overnight, too, when I ordered mine.

Anyway if you are hardcore gamer, you should go for a desktop. Period. For about $1000 you can already get second-tier hardware which will run the latest games with ease. I don't think anyone should really get the cutting edge technology unless he is really loaded.

[asiafish]

You definitely pay for quality, though I believe in the long term, it saves you money.

When I took the bar exam last month, there were plenty of people using old T2x machines and even a good number of 600s, but almost nothing from any other brand more than 2-years-old. I think that says a lot.

Just in my row of seats, the girl next to me had a T21, the guy on the other side a brand-new Dell (because his 2-year-old one was flakey) and further down the row a 600E and a T40. Add my T22 that makes 4 ThinkPads and one Dell, three of them older models.

The best part is that for real work (six essays, two performance exams, a kind of research papers) there was really no difference in function between the 6-year-old 600E and a brand-new T43. Good stuff is just that, good stuff. Despite owning the latest and greatest PowerBook, which has what I consider a vastly superior operating system, I still spend about equal time working on my T22 just because the keyboard is so good and I really love the TrackPoint mouse.

If only the T22 could run OS X, then I'd be in heaven. I'm too lazy to get Linux working with my difficult wifi card (3Com OfficeConnect 196 w/ X-Jack) and a nasty WinModem. Of course the biggest impedement to Linux is getting DVD movie playback, which for me is essential.

Andrew

Andrew

[JHEM]

Whenever I'm lecturing (graduate civil and environmental engineering) or speaking at one of our marine spill response symposia I enjoy taking a quick mental inventory of the laptops everyone plunks down in front of them.

Among my grad students, well used 600 and early T series Thinkpads are the norm with a sprinkling of new Ts thrown in to announce those with sugar-daddy employers. You know just by looking at these veteran laptops and watching their owners flail away at them that they've stood them in good stead for many years. No fumbling, no reaching for "accessories", no waiting for problematic startups. Sit down, open them up and begin working.

At one of our spill response presentations, well attended by representatives from both industry and government, you can always tell the industry reps, primarily engineers, from their government brethren. The industry folks, almost to a man, will whip out some form of the latest and greatest T or X series Thinkpad or, not surprisingly, a Powerbook and are immediately ready for whatever we throw at them via our WiFi pipe.

Most of the government reps will sit down, whip out some "built by the lowest bidder" clone and immediately start looking around for a power outlet!

If your reputation, and continued income, depends on the work you do in public, get the best tools you can afford. For me, that's been Thinkpads for almost 9 years now.

Regards,

James

[asiafish]

My first ThinkPad was a used T20, though my PowerBook history goes back to 1993 and a monochrome 145b.

Andrew

[Daniel]

Along the engineering lines...the battery has two curved surfaces that facilitate a nice little gripping action when carrying it around. I never noticed it until I went to pick up a friend's Dell. Small touches like that are priceless to me.

Mark

Heh, those curves are to accomdate the battery cells.

[rideDPU]

Daniel,
C'mon, don't spoil my fun.

Mark

[zver17]

re: price penalty of IBM T series vs other notebooks.

when i was shopping for a notebook 6months ago I ended up comparing an IBM T42 vs a Fujitsu E8000. Both were 1.7GHz, 1.5GB RAM, 15in SXGA+, bluetooth/wifi etc.

I roughly recall that for the same price (~$2500 approx) as the T42 with CDRW I could get the Fujitsu with a decent CD/DVD multiburner. Fujitsu also has ATI 9700 instead of the T42's 9600, and 1 firewire and 4 USB ports (vs 0 firewire and 2 USB on the T42). But there was no option for 7200rpm HDD on the Fujitsu, and it was also heavier - 7lbs vs 5.5lbs. All other components were comparable, as far as I could tell.

I ended up going IBM since I saw many favourable web reviews (I havent seen this website at that stage, and it has been of great info value) and also heard about good customer support (actually ibm were disappointingly slow to respond to some queries, but so were Fujitsu for that matter). I am definitely happy with the T42, but I suspect I would have also liked the Fujitsu.

So I would probably say there was some price penalty for the T42 in terms of components, but definitely not $1000 as suggested above. I would say $200-300 max. I woudl say the weaknesses of the T42 compared with other advanced laptops is the lack of decent multiburner and inferior peripheral connectivity (no firewire, only 2 usb - but I will soon be using a firewire800 HDD so would've needed a PCMCIA card anyway, and I also use a 4-port USB hub when needed). the other annoyance of the t42 is that the dock for it is grossly overpriced.

But as pointed out above the T series has also many strengths. Not the least is the convenience of having drivers/software for it readily available from the website. for other laptops that is not always the case, so rebuilding the system can be a big hussle.

[dfumento]

Actually, for 2378FVU $1430 + tax (CC discount or edu discount sites) + $120 for 3 year warranty extension and $85 for extra 512MB gives a decent machine for less than $1700 nowadays.

The 9.5 mm height for the optical drive bay limits selection over other models with the taller (12 or 12.5 mm) bay.

I read somewhere that in Japan there is now a DVD double layer burner so it will probably be avail here soon.

[MobileGuru]

The T43's have integrated Intel graphics
R40E has the ATI RADEON IGP 330M
R series have Intel Extreme Graphics2

Be careful here .. as ATI and Intel video chips are two very different things. The X40 uses the Intel Extreme 2 which is indeed integrated, but the T43 uses both the Intel GMA the ATI boards which are discrete, not integrated.

G.

[KCDoug]

Had been a loyal Dell desktop and laptop owner since back in the day when they were smaller, scrappier and innovating marketing, warranty coverage, and customer support. Times have changed. I'm a more experienced technology consumer and more discerning on what I want and need.

A year ago I purchased a custom desktop configured to really accomodate video editing - movies and stills.

Last week - after studying options and lurking here for a couple months - I ordered my first IBM lappy. It arrived yesterday a week ahead of schedule. (Dell did that a lot too.)

This T42 is for business use and it will be a work horse mission critical tool. The anticipated reliabilty, responsive support, reasonable technology platform, and long-term durability drove my decision. It seems obvious IBM designed these machines for business, those needs being paramount as opposed to the latest cutting-edge gaming/video needs. Those who fret about the latter with most IBM laptops may be looking at the wrong thing, akin to comparing the basic design intent of a HumVee to a BMW sedan.

I have great expectations for 10+ hour day-in, day-out use. The $2,200 I spent for this unit is not more expensive than most quality, comparable offerings. Premium? It's not in the cost, but hopefully in ROI from reliability, performance, and longevity.

Cheers,
-Doug