How hot should a normal palmrest (under) of a T61 feel like?

[bautista.ekonomista]

Heya fellow Thinkpadders!

For a month already, I've been feeling too much warmth in my T61's palmrest.

And when I touch the underside of the palmrest (that is, right underneath the touchpad area, near the earphone/mic jacks) it's really hot to the touch. And when I compare it with the temp near the processor area (which, according to TPFanControl as I type this post, is 64C), the area underneath the palmrest is way, way hotter (like 75-80, rough estimates).

Do you think it's quite normal? If not, what do you think is the problem?

I've removed the palmrest plastic a few times already and blew compressed air through it, thinking that it's just a dust problem. But the hotness didn't dissipate.

Thanks in advance!

[RealBlackStuff]

It would be your hard disk (1/3), combined with the wifi-card (2/3), that create this heat.
If you are always/mostly using your laptop at the same spot in your house, I would advise to use an ethernet cable and switch off the wifi when you do.

[richk]

To the right, it would likely be the hard drive or the memory. (WIFI is under the upper part of the keyboard) Obviously, if the disk is getting too hot, it is not good and will eventually lead to failure. First it gets hot, then it gets noisy, then it dies. Check the power settings to make sure the disk powers down when not in use. You can run the machine without the palmrest and feel the disk. It should not be hot.

[RealBlackStuff]

It would be your hard disk (1/3), combined with the wifi-card (2/3), that create this heat.

Oops, I was thinking of a T4x or R5x.

[vinuneuro]

Install HD Tune and see what the actual hard drive temperature is.

[bautista.ekonomista]

To the right, it would likely be the hard drive or the memory. (WIFI is under the upper part of the keyboard) Obviously, if the disk is getting too hot, it is not good and will eventually lead to failure. First it gets hot, then it gets noisy, then it dies. Check the power settings to make sure the disk powers down when not in use. You can run the machine without the palmrest and feel the disk. It should not be hot.

When I brought my T61 to the depot center and have the repair guys check the heat issue about a month ago, they just said that the heat generated on that part of my laptop is "regular" or "normal" for any T61 machine. Yet having used a T40 and a T43p before, I don't think their palmrests never got that hot compared to what I'm experiencing now with my T61.

The specific area where there's too much warmth to my liking is the area underneath the touchpad that's near the headphone/mic jacks; there are two parallel strips of air vents located there that's quite hot.

There are also times when the heat is transmitted to the palmrest itself, making the typing experience quite uncomfortable already.

Do you think there's a problem with my machine that's why it's generating too much heat in the palmrest area?

Thanks a lot!

P.S. I tried an experiment yesterday afternoon before we went to church. I put two books underneath my T61, leaving a space underneath the laptop where I can feel too much warmth. After 2 hours or so, when I touched the same area, it was still hot. So I guess it's not a ventilation issue as far as the heat is concerned.

[bautista.ekonomista]

Install HD Tune and see what the actual hard drive temperature is.

Thanks vinuneuro for the tip!

I just installed HD Tune and it's saying that the HD is 37C hot.

I don't think it's the hard drive per se, since I've been getting hotter temps in the palmrest and yet don't hear any whirring sounds from the hard drive area. I fear that there's something wrong with the motherboard... I guess I'll have to change where I'll have my T61 repaired so I can get different opinions. I'll try to have my T61 fixed in the IBM offices near our school.

Thanks!

[bautista.ekonomista]

It would be your hard disk (1/3), combined with the wifi-card (2/3), that create this heat.
If you are always/mostly using your laptop at the same spot in your house, I would advise to use an ethernet cable and switch off the wifi when you do.

RealBlackStuff, I've also tried switching to an ethernet connection when it's available and yet the heat generated by the area underneath the palmrest doesn't change. I also tried using the laptop near an aircon vent to see if there's a significant change in the temperature reading. Still, no positive result.

P.S. I just saw your signature about Guinness...Hahaha. I miss drinking the black stuff also!!!

[richk]

If it is low on the palmrest (below touchpad), it is memory. More memory = more heat. Higher, it would be the fan/heatsink. I can say my personal machine is a T61p with 4GB of memory, a T7700 processor, a 7200 RPM drive and the nvidia video with 256mb VRAM, which is probably the hottest combination and my palmrest doesn't get hot.

[agarza]

I've began experiencing this issue after I upgraded to a G.Skill Kit 2x2GB DDR2 memory. The stock memory it came my T61 with (2x512MB sticks) I sold them, so I'm not quite sure if after the 'upgrade' I got this annoying heat (I use my laptop most of the time on my stomach, or when I'm in the bed) and it really bugs me, I'm not quite sure why 'more memory = more heat' equation. I think maybe because the memory have more memory modules, but I'm not certain it draws more power (watts = power loss in heat) that gets transferred to the bottom of the machine. Maybe there could be a way to 'canalize' all the heat to the ExpressCard for example (sort of making a heatsink to make dissipate the concentrated heat.

Heck, I'm not even using the whole 4GB of RAM, supposedly I bought the upgrade kit for upgrading to Windows 7, but my memory usage in XP right now is less than 500MB and rarely it goes up to 1GB. I'm really lazy to remove the palmrest and see what a single DIMM of memory would do to reduce the temps a bit. But I think there could be another 'mod' project on the issue of the 'T61 memory hotness' which is a bug because after T61 were released I really thought they were the coolest Thinkpad ever, I have no complaints with the CPU temperature, but this hotness is really a shame, because I really like my machine.

Any ideas are appreciated, and to be further applied in order to find a satisfactory workaround this.

[bautista.ekonomista]

If it is low on the palmrest (below touchpad), it is memory. More memory = more heat. Higher, it would be the fan/heatsink. I can say my personal machine is a T61p with 4GB of memory, a T7700 processor, a 7200 RPM drive and the nvidia video with 256mb VRAM, which is probably the hottest combination and my palmrest doesn't get hot.

My T61 already had 3 GB worth of memory when I bought it nearly 2 years ago in Singapore (the store where I bought my ThinkPad in Sim Lim Square added 2 GB on top of the 1 GB installed in my T61 for free). I really never had an issue as far as additional memory in my T61 is concerned; only just recently did I notice the increased heat in the palmrest area, below the touchpad and near the headphone/microphone jacks.

I am suspecting also that it may be the memory modules that could have been causing all these heat. However, since it just happened a few months back I really am not sure with my prognosis. I even cleaned the memory area with compressed air. But it did no good.

I called the Lenovo customer representative this morning and the sales rep told me that I install MIGR 67988 from the Lenovo support website, which I suppose is a BIOS update. However, after extracting the file, the installer was telling me that I already have the latest BIOS update installed.

[vinuneuro]

Thanks vinuneuro for the tip!

I just installed HD Tune and it's saying that the HD is 37C hot.

I don't think it's the hard drive per se, since I've been getting hotter temps in the palmrest and yet don't hear any whirring sounds from the hard drive area. I fear that there's something wrong with the motherboard... I guess I'll have to change where I'll have my T61 repaired so I can get different opinions. I'll try to have my T61 fixed in the IBM offices near our school.

Thanks!

37C is not hot at all. I can't even really feel the heat in mine unless than hdd temp goes past 40C, and it's only slightly at that point. If you have spare/old ram, swap it in to see if that's the issue.

[lead_org]

Conversely speaking, did the heat up occur after the bios update?

[bautista.ekonomista]

37C is not hot at all. I can't even really feel the heat in mine unless than hdd temp goes past 40C, and it's only slightly at that point. If you have spare/old ram, swap it in to see if that's the issue.

Yup, 37C is really not at all. The problem is that despite the temperature reading of the HD, the area near it (the area's that hot is underneath the touchpad, near the headphone/mic jacks) is what's driving kinda paranoid, since it's too warm for my liking.

As for your second suggestion, I don't have spare RAM sticks or HDs; I am still saving up to upgrade my HD to a 320G/500G 7200 RPM drive. I really don't think it's the HD that's causing too much heat; as noted by richk about the possible HD problem, I haven't heard any disturbing or awkward noise coming from the HD.

[bautista.ekonomista]

Conversely speaking, did the heat up occur after the bios update?

lead_org, I really can't recall if the heating started after the bios update. I've been looking at System Update's installation history and I can't locate when did the BIOS installation occur, if it did at all.

I downloaded MIGR 67988 and tried updating the BIOS, but the installer keeps on telling me that "BIOS image file is same as BIOS ROM. An update isn't necessary at this time", meaning perhaps that my BIOS is up-to-date, which I checked with Lenovo System Toolbox and got a confirmation that it is indeed up-to-date.

As I am typing this reply, I am starting to feel that the warmth in the palmrest area has started to spread to the left flank underneath and above the palmrest (near the wifi switch).

I really am losing hope...as much as I want to bring this lappy of mine to the nearest service center, I still have truckloads of stuff to do this week.

[RealBlackStuff]

Take the palmrest off for a while to find out exactly WHAT gets hot.
No point exploring theories...

[bautista.ekonomista]

Take the palmrest off for a while to find out exactly WHAT gets hot.
No point exploring theories...

But don't you think i might short circuit something when I leave the palmrest area open then turn the laptop on all at the same time?

[will_ssi]

Your G.skill ram sounds like it might be causing the heat. As memory chip density increases, or operating frequency (i.e. DDR2-677 vs DDR2-800) increases, it's common for the memory to pull .1 or .2 more volts. P=VI, you might have heating from that.

Perhaps if you check with other people with the same exact type of memory you're using, see if they experience heat issues. If you got high frequency, enthusiast memory, it's not uncommon for those to sell with heatspreaders installed on top, your memory might be meant for a desktop case that can handle heat flow better than a laptop.

Or your BIOS update jacked the voltage to the DIMMs up.

You should remove the palm-rest like someone noted and identify what is heating up. Just be careful not to touch anything to it, and remove the palm rest with the computer unplugged / no battery, and after you've hit the power button to dissipate any remaining capacitance.

ps. T61 here, and my palm rest isn't warm at all.

[agarza]

I have also a strange problem on my T61: If I put my ear very close to the touchpad I can hear some whining noises which I thing are coming from the RAM sticks, I don't know if this is normal but the whining is continuous and rarely stops, maybe the solution is on the BIOS firmware that has something to do with polling intervals on the memory, I don't know really.

I feel maybe the 'latest' BIOS firmware had something to do with the temperature because I can't recall before the update having the bottom hot.

bautista: I might open up the machine, let the temperatures set for a while and touch one of the modules, you can touch them I think so in the borders (the green area) and be safe I think. What would happen If I put an aluminum foil just above the 2 modules and route it to the ExpressCard? We'll see..

[bautista.ekonomista]

I have also a strange problem on my T61: If I put my ear very close to the touchpad I can hear some whining noises which I thing are coming from the RAM sticks, I don't know if this is normal but the whining is continuous and rarely stops, maybe the solution is on the BIOS firmware that has something to do with polling intervals on the memory, I don't know really.

I feel maybe the 'latest' BIOS firmware had something to do with the temperature because I can't recall before the update having the bottom hot.

bautista: I might open up the machine, let the temperatures set for a while and touch one of the modules, you can touch them I think so in the borders (the green area) and be safe I think. What would happen If I put an aluminum foil just above the 2 modules and route it to the ExpressCard? We'll see..

agarza,

Do you know how to revert back to the BIOS settings/driver that preceded the current version? Will the machine permit it?

Hmmm...the service rep I spoke with over the phone yesterday thought that it's the BIOS that could have been wrecking havoc inside my T61. And updating it to the latest version may solve my current problem. Yet having already installed the latest BIOS version, I can't update the BIOS anymore, suggesting that the BIOS could also be the contributing factor in the too much heating I'm experiencing with my T61.

And it's really peculiar for me to experience heating in my palmrest given that I'm only using 3 GB of ordinary RAM; many T61 users here in the forum had their RAM capacity maxed out to 4GB with enthusiast-level modules and yet they don't experience any heating below the palmrest area, much less on the palmrest itself.

I think I'll have to send the machine to the service depot as soon as I finish my exams this week. Parting with my T61 is a thought I cannot reconcile right now given the load I'm currently juggling.

Btw, here are the latest figures given by TPFanCOntrol:

1 cpu 58°C
2 aps 37°C
3 crd 35°C
5 no5 50°C
7 bat 30°C
9 bus 39°C
10 pci 45°C
11 pwr 43°C

[RealBlackStuff]

Try and run it with only 1 RAM module, either a 1GB or a 2GB.
Your machine should run OK with either amount.

[GomJabbar]

You should be able to fry the opponent - or an egg - while playing WOW.

j/k

[lead_org]

Actually bios updates don't always fix problems, sometimes they cause more then they fix, and there are many evidences of that recently in the forums.lenovo.com.

Also, i have found that Lenovo recent bios updates that i have done (not that recent, i don't usually update the bios on my laptop unless i really have to) on my T60 and X60 have caused the fan to spin slower and it would only step up at higher temperature. While, i did notice that the laptop runs more silently but at the expense of high temperature. My X60 with the latest update, only spin the fan at level 5 at 75 degrees, when prior to the bios update it would spin at level 6 or 7 at that temperature. This is frustrating as the laptop tends to slow down considerably at that temperature in my X60.

So i would definitely try to do bios downgrade before trying out the other methods.

[bautista.ekonomista]

Actually bios updates don't always fix problems, sometimes they cause more then they fix, and there are many evidences of that recently in the forums.lenovo.com.

Also, i have found that Lenovo recent bios updates that i have done (not that recent, i don't usually update the bios on my laptop unless i really have to) on my T60 and X60 have caused the fan to spin slower and it would only step up at higher temperature. While, i did notice that the laptop runs more silently but at the expense of high temperature. My X60 with the latest update, only spin the fan at level 5 at 75 degrees, when prior to the bios update it would spin at level 6 or 7 at that temperature. This is frustrating as the laptop tends to slow down considerably at that temperature in my X60.

So i would definitely try to do bios downgrade before trying out the other methods.

lead_org,

How do I perform a BIOS downgrade? I've been looking for older BIOS firmware for T61 to no avail.

As with my machine, I guess I'll have to send it to the service depot as soon as I finish my final papers this week. It's really acting weird; there are times that it heats stupendously and sometimes it just cools off. But one thing's for sure: when I touch the laptop's underside, it really gets hot 15-20 minutes after turning it on.

[RealBlackStuff]

You didn't look very hard I guess...
Loads of older BIOS versions here (scroll down): http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-67988

[bautista.ekonomista]

You didn't look very hard I guess...
Loads of older BIOS versions here (scroll down): http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-67988

Thanks a lot!

I just performed a downgrade to the BIOS firmware 2.25 (which immediately preceded the current BIOS available, 2.26).

I'll observe what happens with the machine for a day or two and report my findings here.

Thanks a lot!

[agarza]

Be sure to post any positive or (negative) findings after downgrading the BIOS.

Judging by your temperatures I'd say you're experiencing a mild warm temperatures, the CPU being 58C is not normal unless you're stressing it out or no fan activity.

My current temps are:
CPU 48°C (0x78)
APS 45°C (0x79)
PCM 37°C (0x7a)
BAT 37°C (0x7c)
BAT 35°C (0x7e)
BUS 44°C (0xc0)
PCI 45°C (0xc1)
PWR 42°C (0xc2)

The CPU is 48C because the fan activates when 50C is the temperature at the moment.

I tried 'modding' the RAM modules, I put aluminum foil underneath both sticks, but I panicked after I found out the machine wouldn't turn ON.
I removed it, removed the battery, and retested with only the AC, this time it beeped, but I haven't realized there were no RAM modules attached to. I simply put a piece of paper and reassembled everything and a big sign of relief when I realized my Thinkpad was not dead.
Maybe it is dangerous putting metal foils near the motherboard circuitry?

Now I don't really know if my T61 bottom is hot, maybe is a bit warm and a bit uncomfortable, but is definitely not HOT as you describe.

[bautista.ekonomista]

Be sure to post any positive or (negative) findings after downgrading the BIOS.

Judging by your temperatures I'd say you're experiencing a mild warm temperatures, the CPU being 58C is not normal unless you're stressing it out or no fan activity.

My current temps are:
CPU 48°C (0x78)
APS 45°C (0x79)
PCM 37°C (0x7a)
BAT 37°C (0x7c)
BAT 35°C (0x7e)
BUS 44°C (0xc0)
PCI 45°C (0xc1)
PWR 42°C (0xc2)

The CPU is 48C because the fan activates when 50C is the temperature at the moment.

I tried 'modding' the RAM modules, I put aluminum foil underneath both sticks, but I panicked after I found out the machine wouldn't turn ON.
I removed it, removed the battery, and retested with only the AC, this time it beeped, but I haven't realized there were no RAM modules attached to. I simply put a piece of paper and reassembled everything and a big sign of relief when I realized my Thinkpad was not dead.
Maybe it is dangerous putting metal foils near the motherboard circuitry?

Now I don't really know if my T61 bottom is hot, maybe is a bit warm and a bit uncomfortable, but is definitely not HOT as you describe.

agarza,

Greetings from Manila!

I just finished my last exam for my undergraduate studies just this morning...that's why I can return in the forum once more and continue posting in this thread!

Hmmmm...I did a BIOS downgrade as what lead_org said, with the help of RealBlackStuff pointing me to where I can get the older BIOS firmwares.

And it did work!

I don't have the problem now of heating palmrests. THe underside of my T61 is still warm though, but not as hot as before. So I think for the moment, downgrading to the immediate preceding version (2.25) worked for me.

Hmmmm..I do wonder, however, if the mod you did will also work for me to continue to bring down the temps.

Your Battery temp is hot, though. The warmest it got was around 32C. Maybe you're in an area with no air-conditioning?

Again, thanks for the replies! I'll observe my T61 for a few more days and then report to you again if there has been any significant decline in the temps.

Thanks!

P.S. To the mods, could you please enlighten us on why there seems to be a heating problem whenever one upgrades to a newer BIOS firmware? Or is it on case-to-case basis?

[agarza]

Hello again!

Good to know you corrected your problem with your T61, I might as well try downgrading and see what happens. Will report results too.

[bautista.ekonomista]

For the past few days I've been playing with BIOS upgrades/downgrades to look for problems associated with such. (I hope I don't ruin my BIOS in the process...)

Here are some observations:

- After downgrading to the BIOS firmware immediately preceding the latest build (2.26-->2.25), there is a noticeable drop in the temperature registered in my palmrest. There is also a noticeable drop in the heat felt in the laptop's underside, right underneath the palmrest.

- I think the location where you use your ThinkPad matters as much as the BIOS firmware installed in the ThinkPad. There's a significant difference in the heat generated by the laptop area when I work in an air-conditioned area (such as my mom's office or the mini-library of the research group I'm currently working under) than in a fan-cooled area (such as our house or any area without proper air-conditioning). However, the BIOS version differences remain the kicker: regardless of the area where I worked, my T61 performed much cooler with the downgraded BIOS.

- When the laptop's heating, it's near the hard drive area; it's also gotten quite noisy these past few days (there's an almost inaudible whir when I place my ear near the hard drive but not as loud as I would not have liked it).

- The hottest area under the laptop is right underneath the touchpad area, near the parallel vents.

- Processor heating is indistinguishable; the processor remained cool to the touch regardless of BIOS firmware installed.

To those who know very well how ThinkPad hardware works, do you think it will fo any good if I remove the hard drive and clean the area of dust?

Thanks!