T20?

[Medessec]

I saw several T20s in pieces in a Surplus store, although I was looking for T40s and T42s. The T20 is still what I call a true IBM Thinkpad(not a Lenovo Thinkpad), but it's hardware is a tad older. Do you think it's more worth it to get a T20, or should I just save up that little extra buck and get a T42?

Plus, are T20 hardware components(HD, DVD-ROM) easy to find? Or will I need to do a bit of research and ebay browsing?

[ArtShapiro]

I'd vote no.

I have, and still sporadically use, a T20 (XP Pro) so I'm quite familiar with it. It was my first Thinkpad. I keep in in the master bath, and use it when I'm in the tub, on a board spanning the tub. I try my best to keep it bone dry, but if I were to slip up and splash it and it decided to expire, I guess it wouldn't be a horrid tragedy.

Even maxed out on memory (I think that's half a gig) and with a 7200 RPM drive, it has a pretty tough time doing stuff like showing videos, which often jump frames in a jerky motion. It just doesn't have enough horsepower. For routine web stuff, it's fine.

The T20 is reaching a point in its life, speaking in general, that one wouldn't be surprised if it were to simply die from the inevitabilities of old age. And of course there's the well-known primarily cosmetic issue where the keyboard plinth is prone to fracture on its exceedingly thin right edge.

Unless you're under a severe financial constraint, I'd offer the opinion that you could do a lot better with a more recent Thinkpad.

Art

[mattbiernat]

i think T4x series had more GPU problems than T20. i own T23 with 1.13GHZ and it is quite fast for playing videos, watching movies and surfing. but the screen quality of a T23 is not as good as that of a T4x series. So if you are looking for more reliability I would stick with T2x (assuming you are getting one in a good condition) but if you are going to be careful with the T4X then go for it all the way. It has much better screen, much better keyboard and will be probably better for playing blueray/HD videos.

[RealBlackStuff]

A T23 with SXGA+ (1400x1050) and built-in wifi is the sweet spot in that range, although the T23 XGA (1024x768), when in good shape, is not to be sneezed at either.
I have about 15 of them, so I should know!
If you go for a T4x model, get a T40/41/42 with an R51 motherboard with integrated Intel graphics, or a T43, more modern hardware.

[SMA]

The prices on T30 systems seems to have decreased a lot lately.
And T30 uses DDR memory which is much cheaper than the sdram used in T2x systems.

[Medessec]

Seems a T20 is great if you want something of good value, just plain reliable and good durability, whereas the T4x series holds good to staying up to date, and having the right amount of power for daily chores and internet surfing.

Both most certainly can run XP, but it looks like the T4x series will do a better job running Vista and 7.

I might just get both! lol

But, I'll actually wait and see, but it looks like I'm going with the T20. Next time I go, they might have newer Thinkpads in pieces though.

[rkawakami]

T20 pluses and minuses:

- uses older PC100 or PC133 low density SDRAM modules; these are generally more expensive per MB than high density SDRAM or DDR modules
- can suffer from the Blink of Death
+ can use any Ultrabay 2000 device
- uses PATA hard drives; again, generally the newer SATA drives are less expensive per GB than PATA
+ shares some parts from other T2x systems which can make finding replacement parts a little easier
- maximum memory in a T20 is 512MB, but that's adequate for running XP
- maximum CPU speed that was offered from the factory was a PIII at 750Mhz; not sure if you could throw in anything faster
- only has a single USB 1.1 port

[Medessec]

The T20 seems very limited hardware-wise compared to the T42, so I imght end up just getting a T42 when I have the money. They're still purely IBM, and they're able to stay up to date and have the latest software.

[ajkula66]

I don't understand the "purely IBM" business...most of T20s were made in Mexico, while most of T42s were produced in China...

On the reliability side, basic T42s with Radeon 7500 GPU scores very low, IBM or not.

Try finding a machine dated March of 2006 or later, since these have improved soldering process implemented.

[Medessec]

The pure IBM is just another way to say a Thinkpad that was produced before Lenovo bought out the Thinkpad lineup.

My dad uses a Lenovo Thinkpad already(I think it's an SL-series) for work, so I like to stick with the "purely IBM" Thinkpads. I might get a lenovo thinkpad soon, but for now, it's a T20, T42, or R-series if I'm lucky.

Most T42s seem to have great hardware and capabilities over the T20, so I'll probably get one of those.

For reliability, from what I hear, the T20s seem to be a bit more well put together(probably why there's so many of them still around) so I'm still thinking of it. But T20s, as stated above, are very limited.

[ajkula66]

Medessec wrote:

The pure IBM is just another way to say a Thinkpad that was produced before Lenovo bought out the Thinkpad lineup.

If you're looking at T42 line, you'll be much better off with ones produced under Lenovo...far lesser chance of GPU failure, and 99% of them will still bear IBM logos...

I use T20 on almost daily basis at work, and it was definitely built very well, but even with 512MB RAM and 5400rpm HDD XP felt sluggish, 650Mhz CPU had something to do with that for sure, so I went back to W2K and it's great-as long as you don't run anything graphic or CPU intensive on it...

Happy hunting.

[Medessec]

Thanks guys... these are great ideas. I'll probably want to get a T20 for IBM's design, and a later T42 for Lenovo's reliability.

T42s have pretty good hardware, I saw somewhere a T42 had a fingerprint reader? Even if that's not true, it's got neat hardware so i'll have to get a T42 at some point.

[ajkula66]

Some of the late and/or high-end T42/p machines were available with fingerprint reader, although this option was fairly rare.

FWIW, all T43/p units support FPR even if they haven't left the factory with appropriate palmrest.

[Medessec]

heh, cool. I am so totally gonna get a T43 now.

But I've got a whole lot of things on my wishlist right now... it'll be awhile...

[nikki605]

I've got an 8-year old T21 that still works fine, but I don't think I would invest in another T2X model now. The platform is too old. Over the years, I've maxed mine out about as far as I could take it, but it still struggles running WinXP. The biggest problem seems to be the video section. It will crash trying to run so of today's video intense apps.

But, it does what I want it to do. I know I'm close to getting a replacement. Looking towards a new T400/500. I've been following that forum along trying to get familiar.

[Medessec]

I was looking up the T20-series and I think I might look for a T23. Are they common?

[rkawakami]

Depends upon who you ask (see .sig). T23 gains you the ability to install up to 1GB of PC133 memory; still more expensive per MB than DDR modules used by the T4x systems. Processor speed tops out at 1.20Ghz but when used in conjunction with 1GB of memory, Windows XP is tolerable as long as you aren't doing any heavy Adobe Creative Suite tasks or need to play most video games (S3 GPU is not a gaming chip). Has two USB ports but they are still 1.1. Uses Ultrabay 2000 optical drives and hard drive adapters. As previously mentioned by RBS, some systems come with SXGA+ resolution screens and built-in wireless.

T23 systems have at least one well known weakness: loose inductor(s) which cause a non-boot condition or a failure to charge the battery. The good news is that if you are handy with a soldering iron, those problems can be easily solved. The other thing that commonly breaks on the system is a mounting tab on the Ultrabay guide rail (right rear corner of the base). When that piece breaks it can lead to additional cracks in the keyboard bezel because the base is allowed to flex more than normal. Keyboards and LCDs from earlier T20-T22 systems can be used in a T23; the keyboard bezel is unique to the T23. To me I think that the T23 is more desirable than an ATI T4x system mainly because I can deal with resoldering the occasional loose inductor (see: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 97#p545497), rather than having to deal with a GPU reflow.

[Medessec]

Aha. Thanks. Soldering scares me a bit but I have done it before, so it shouldn't be a big problem. I'll definitely have to consider a T23.

What about the T21 and T22? Are these any good? Or are they just mildly improved versions of the T20? I think I saw a T21 in the "barebone laptops" pile at the store...

[RealBlackStuff]

@medessec:
check your PM

[rkawakami]

"Mildly improved". The T20 topped out at 750Mhz. T21 started at 750Mhz and went up to 850Mhz (secret tip: I believe that all 850Mhz T21 systems also came with the SXGA+ screen). T22 came in 800Mhz to 1Ghz models (and some of them also were available with SXGA+ panels). They all shared the same peripherals and major components. All had a single USB port. None of them had built-in wireless. And I believe that all are susceptible to the dreaded "Blink of Death". That's when you press the power button and all the system does is flash the hard drive LED for a split second (i.e., it doesn't boot).

[Medessec]

Aha thanks. This is all good information for a future purchase...

RealBlackStuff I've replied to your PM

[Unknown_K]

T23 systems have at least one well known weakness: loose inductor(s) which cause a non-boot condition or a failure to charge the battery.

I won a T2x of some variety from a 1 feedback seller earlier this month and it arrived today. Turns out is is a T23 with the 1400x1050 screen in nice condition (other then a couple scratches on one side of the case and missing the HD cover. The unit would not boot because it had 3 loose inductors, soldered those up and all is well. It has the DVD/cdrw drive and the battery works for 2+ hours. Not too bad for $11 shipped plus I ordered a sled, screws and cover for the HD for $6 shipped.

Can you use any kind of PC133 RAM on that model? It came with one stick of 256MB PC133 and I figured another 256 or 512MB would be good (Win2k).

The repair was kind of funny because I stripped the unit and found one inductor on top half on. So I fixed that, checked the other parts on top, reassembled, and it still didnt work (fan would pulse). So I looked around on the forum and found that the inductors for power were on the bottom. Ripped it apart again and both those inductors were loose, flicking them popped them off. Soldered them up and assembled the unit again and it booted fine.

[rkawakami]

Any kind of non-ECC PC133 module should work. The T23 is not sensitive to any "density" issues like the earlier T20-T22 systems, nor do you need the faster CL2 modules. My recommendation would be to install a 512MB stick. They run around $20 on eBay; less if you are patient .

[JBUK]

Another advantage that the T23 has over the T20-T22 is the disk bus speed at ATA100 wipes the floor with the earlier models' ATA33.
I use both T21s and T23 and the T23 is just so much snappier and quicker at any data handling activities. This makes it more satisfying to use in the long term.
Those that use these excellent thinkpads will recognise what I am saying.