I need some help with an older Thinkpad 760XL *PICS*

[BowerR64]

I picked up an older 760XL at the local indoor R/C track. The guy told me i could have it if i wiped the drive. It had windows 2000 on it and booted to a locked password. I picked up a converter because i have no floppy with this unit and the CDrom isnt being listed in the bios.

I put the drive in anothe rmachine and using a windows 98 disk i deleted the partition, made a new one, activated it then tried to install XP on another machine. After it was nearly finished i put it back into the laptop and it appears as if 2000 is still on there some how. It acts as if its still trying to boot to 2000. I get that little white bar at the bottom is there a boot sector or somthing that i maybe missing in the format part and somthing is still left from 2000?

The only thing i want to do with this machine is use it to test audio speakers with a very simple audio test program. It has the correct outs and a mic in and its portable. The "REW" program says its XP based so im not sure if anything other then 2000 or XP will work or ide try to install 98.

Since there is no floppy wih it i cant install 2000 plus all my floppys are bad.

Any help would be great.

Admin edit: Added PICS warning to subject line

[Neil]

Welcome to the forum!

Windows XP isn't the best OS for a 760XL. You might get it to work, but it doesn't meet MS minimum requirements;

• PC with 300 megahertz or higher processor clock speed recommended; 233 MHz minimum required (single or dual processor system);* Intel Pentium/Celeron family, or AMD K6/Athlon/Duron family, or compatible processor recommended
• 128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)

A 760XL should perform well on Win95 or better yet Win98SE.

Put the HDD back in the other computer and format it FAT32, copy system files to the HDD, make a directory you will recognize later, copy all the Win98 CABS into that directory. Put drive back in the 760XL, boot, navigate to the directory you made and run setup.

Hope this is helpful. Maybe someone else has another method that would work well for you.

[BowerR64]

Are you fermiliar with the 760? Mine has no floppy with it so i cant boot to dos. Its either been changed out or i didnt receive it with the unit. The part that puzzles me is the CDrom does not show up in the bios so till there is an OS on it that has the drivers the CDrom will not function either.

I have another smaller 1.2G laptop drive i tried first to install windows 98 on but for some reason it isnt being supported by the bios either and it will not boot to it as well. It is from a toshiba laptop. Im not sure why the toshiba drive wont work unless the bios is actualy on the drive? I havnt tried to boot it with no drive at all to see what it does. Wait i guess if it boots with the toshiba then it does have a bios different from the drive.

So with no working drive and no floppy its being a pain.

I need to find out if the program im wanting to use on it is supported by other opperating systems. It may only work on XP and newer, i think 2000 is close to XP so it may work.

[Neil]

Familiar with a 760XL? Well, no, I've never owned one. But, I have installed Windows on a few other models without a floppy or CD-ROM using the method I described above.

But, if you don't have another computer that you can put the 760's drive into and boot your Windows installation media, you are going to have a tough time setting the drive up.

[pkiff]

Are you fermiliar with the 760? Mine has no floppy with it so i cant boot to dos.

Neil's advice sounds right to me. In older machines it was common to load up the DOS system files onto the hard drive itself, then boot up the hard drive into DOS, then install Windows 9x from files you had copied over to the hard drive. That's how I used to do it with my 760L and my 350C.

The part that puzzles me is the CDrom does not show up in the bios so till there is an OS on it that has the drivers the CDrom will not function either.

Two possibilities come to mind here. First, possibly the CD-ROM isn't showing up in your BIOS the way you expect because it is not possible to boot from the CD-ROM in that 760 model. I had a 760L and I know I couldn't boot from a CD in that one. The 760XL I can't say for sure. Second, as with the DOS system files, in older computers it was common to have to load up your CD-ROM drivers in autoexec.bat and config.sys files on the hard drive, then when you boot your hard drive into DOS, you would load up the DOS versions of the CD-ROM drivers with it, and then you could access the CD-ROM (to install or copy files).

I have another smaller 1.2G laptop drive i tried first to install windows 98 on but for some reason it isnt being supported by the bios either and it will not boot to it as well. It is from a toshiba laptop. Im not sure why the toshiba drive wont work unless the bios is actualy on the drive?

The BIOS is definitely not on the hard drive. But it is certainly possible to run into problems with different drive "geometry" that different laptop manufacturers implement. Whenever possible, it is best to partition and format your drive while it is sitting in your Thinkpad, and only after doing that, then you can transfer it over to another drive to copy files. But if you don't have a floppy drive, then all of that becomes more complicated. Neil is right about being able to install Windows without a floppy drive, but I would say that it is pretty darn handy to have one when you are working on an old machine that cannot boot from a CD.

Phil.

[BowerR64]

Well it does and it doesnt, he says put the system files on the drive. Once the system files are on the drive i still need DOS to navigate to the filder with the system files on it dont i?

Can you point me in the direction on how to load the dos files to the drive? im not sure how i dont think ive done that before.

Ive installed many operating systems myself 95,98,ME even 2000 and XP but this is the first one ive had this issue with. I havnt messed with 2K that much although.

Thanks for the help so far.

[BowerR64]

Would the file system matter on this machine? Fat or NTFS? maybe that was my mistake?

[TTA]

ugh I just woke up... I own several 760 machines including XL's XD's L's CD's and ED's (I think and ELD too ) I can answer all your questions but not till I'm up I"m very sick and I don't want to make any typos
heck Once I'm up want a FDD and 760XL recovery CD? I know I have the CD 90% certain on the FDD

[BowerR64]

Yeah man that would be great. I can pay for shipping or somthing with a paypal add. Does this forum have a personal message thing?

Im starting to wonder if this thing didnt start with 95 then it was upgraded to 2000 and i need to start that way?

I finaly got 2000 installed on the drive in another machine but when i put it in the 760 it just hangs at the 2000 load screen (that black screen with the white line that moves across the bottom) i can go into the safe menu but none of the choices do anything but hang at that fist screen.

I dont understand whats wrong. The OS that was on it was i think 2000 AS if that matters?

[pkiff]

Well it does and it doesnt, he says put the system files on the drive. Once the system files are on the drive i still need DOS to navigate to the filder with the system files on it dont i?

No, you don't need actual an entire install of DOS. All you need are a small list of files. These are normally available on any standard "boot" disk. That's why having a floppy makes things easier. Simply having a hard disk that has been formatted as a "system" disk in FAT32 will allow you to browse it from a C: prompt.

Can you point me in the direction on how to load the dos files to the drive? im not sure how i dont think ive done that before.

To make a blank hard disk into a FAT32 system disk that boots into a C: prompt (aka DOS prompt), you must:

1. Partition the disk using the command:
fdisk
(follow the instructions provided, accept defaults when in doubt, partition it as a "Primary DOS" partition using FAT32)

2. Format the disk using the command:
format c: /s
(the "/s" tells it to add the DOS system files so that it becomes bootable)

Then you should be able to copy over an autoexec.bat file and a config.sys file that properly recognize your CD drive. Then you can run your install from the CD. But the instructions for how to do this specifically step-by-step can be a bit on the complicated side if you don't already know what you are doing at that point. There are also a couple weird little unexpected quirks that can get in the way of a smooth install at that point, too. But with luck, the install process goes smoothly from there.

Ive installed many operating systems myself 95,98,ME even 2000 and XP but this is the first one ive had this issue with. I havnt messed with 2K that much although.

This is not an issue with Windows 2000. You are running into complications because you are trying to install your system in a way that it was not designed to be installed. All those operating systems were designed to be installed with a floppy "boot" disk or via a bootable CD-ROM. You are trying to install one without either.

Would the file system matter on this machine? Fat or NTFS? maybe that was my mistake?

Possibly. I would start with a format of FAT32 until you get all the files you need on your drive and can boot to it. Windows 2000 will give you an option to convert to NTFS, so you can convert during the install (though in effect, you end up formatting your disk twice).

Phil.

[pkiff]

heck Once I'm up want a FDD and 760XL recovery CD? I know I have the CD 90% certain on the FDD

Hey BowerR64, you should definitely take TTA up on that generous and friendly offer! It'll make your life a whole lot easier.

Does this forum have a personal message thing?

At the bottom of each post you should see a couple buttons: one is to view a user's profile, one is for pm (private message).

[BowerR64]

I just tried that format c:/s and i got an error that says my version of dos no longer supports the "S" command.

I did some google searching and one of the posts i found was to try format c:/s

I know im trying to do somthing the wrong way but im fully installing the OS on another machine and when i put it into the laptop it still isnt booting to it. This is what im having so much trouble understanding.

When i tried to install XP and recently 2000 there is another partition that shows up as 2mb its not a partition but its somthing i cant remove.

2mb is small but alot can fit on a 1.33 floppy so what could this be?

Im just affraid ill kill the drive and then the bios wont even reconize it like the toshiba drive. At least how it is now the bios atleast knows its there.

[BowerR64]

When id the best time to put the drive back into the laptop during the install? You know how it install a bunch of files then it reboots? if i put it back into the laptop then will it install the CDrom drivers after this first reboot?

I think it may install all the cab files or system files before this first reboot, or the past windows versions did then this was the time to put the drive back in and then it finished from there.

[BowerR64]

Well scratch the fat32 idea, its still hanging on the windows is starting screen. Nothing has changed.

Im all out of ideas other then to try and install windows 95 first.

[Unknown_K]

Those series of machines are limited in RAM, so Win 95/98 is about the best you are going to get (or NT4).

You cannot boot from the internal CDROM. Best method of OS install is to use the floppy (external is best) and CDROM combo booting from a Win95 boot disk with the CD in the CDROM drive.

Format c: /s only works in DOS or Win9x boot disks, later Windows do not have that option.

Any idea what size that hard disk is in MB?

There are a few versions of Windows 95, the original version did not support FAT32 and will only let you make 2GB or smaller partitions and it will not recognize a drive formatted in NTFS (found in Windows NT4 and Win2k etc). The Win95 CDs with support for USB printed on them will let you do FAT32 (and still won't read NTFS).

Best way to do this is install the HD into another laptop, boot from a Win95 cd, format the drive in FAT16 or FAT32 and system (Format c: /s like you tried).

After that grab this file
http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc ... tpgdos.exe
That file is a DOS driver for the built in CDROM, which will allow you to boot into DOS with support for the CDROM (it will have the D drive letter) so you can finish installing Win95 from the CD on the 760XL.

[pkiff]

I just tried that format c:/s and i got an error that says my version of dos no longer supports the "S" command.

Mmmm...I think you may be using Win XP to format the disk. If you use WinXP to format the disk and put the system files on it, then you will end up with a disk that has WinXP system files on it, and that won't help you. In XP I think you can format a floppy disk as an MS-DOS startup disk, but I'm not sure how to format a fixed/hard disk with plain old MS-DOS from within XP because XP doesn't use regular MS-DOS. This is all getting more complicated than it needs to. I think someone else should jump in here and give you some better advice.

I know im trying to do somthing the wrong way but im fully installing the OS on another machine and when i put it into the laptop it still isnt booting to it. This is what im having so much trouble understanding.

This I can explain. Put simply, this won't work on most old machines. While it is possible to install an operating system in one machine and transfer it to another, you shouldn't generally expect that you can do this with a laptop. The hardware is simply too different from one laptop to another. To get Windows installed on your 760XL, you'll need to run an installation sequence on that machine.

When i tried to install XP and recently 2000 there is another partition that shows up as 2mb its not a partition but its somthing i cant remove. 2mb is small but alot can fit on a 1.33 floppy so what could this be?

Not sure, but I'd recommend wiping a drive entirely and completely of all partitions before starting work on a fresh install like this.

Im just affraid ill kill the drive and then the bios wont even reconize it like the toshiba drive. At least how it is now the bios atleast knows its there.

I missed something there. You've got a blank drive that isn't recognized?

My recommended solution for you at this point is to get a hold of a floppy drive as there are still a number of other hurdles remaining still that you will have to get past after figuring out how to make your hard drive bootable as an MS-DOS system disk. These aren't necessarily huge hurdles, but you'll have to be fairly familiar with DOS to get around them.

Phil.

[Edward Mendelson]

Just to summarize and repeat earlier points:

1. The ONLY way to install Win2000 on a 760XL (I have one with Win2000 on it) is to boot from the Win2000 floppy disk and then let the installation continue from the CD. Don't waste your time trying to install it a different system and then moving the disk to the 760XL. It will NOT work. Period. Buy an external floppy drive from eBay, or search for them on Google. The IBM part number is 46H5749. You should be able to find one easily for about $2 plus shipping.

2. When installing Win2000, let the installer reformat the hard disk. That procedure will NOT - repeat NOT - prevent the ThinkPad BIOS from recognizing the disk. Formatting has NO effect - repeat NO effect - on whether the BIOS detects the disk. If you are worried that reformatting will make the hard disk unrecognizable to the BIOS, then you might as well worry also that reformatting will (1) cause your computer to explode or (2) make your coffeemaker burn out; all these results are equally improbable.

3. If you don't have the absolute maximum 104MB of memory that can be installed in a 760XL, then you probably don't even want to think about installing Win2000 on the machine. It will probably start up, but many applications won't work at all.

4. If your Win2000 boot floppies are unreadable, you can create new ones by taking the Win2000 CD to a machine that has a CD and a floppy disk, and follow this procedure:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/197063

I think these four points are absolutely everything you need to know to get Win2000 installed on a ThinkPad 760XL.

[BowerR64]

Well this machine had windows 2000 on it when i got it so i just figured it was the better OS to use on it right now. Does microsoft still support 2000? i know it doesnt support any of the past so updates wouldnt work i dont think.

The other drive i have that it wont reconize is a 1.2 from another laptop i got at the same time. I thought i would leave the stock 760 drive untouched till i figured out more about the machine and use the one it wont see but since it wont even reconize it i just decided to try and get the one in it working.

The drive is a 2.1G ive had it out and i can see on the case it is a 2.1

Every install ive tried i use the setup to format but ive also deleted the partition in dos using Fdisk to delete and recreat the partitions, reboot then format it.

The best boot disk i have to boot into does is a windows ME disk this i think is the newest bootable DOS CD you can get, i have a few actual genuine windows disks with the hologram CD and those versions of dos is what i used that says format /S is not supported.

I dont have a windows 95 boot disk for the format/s maybe ill install windwos 95 on that second drive and make one to use with the stock laptop drive.

So far ive tried installing windows on the drive 4 times and it will not boot to any of them. The floppy drive maybe my only way to get it to work but i still dont understand why it wont boot to another OS no matter what it was installed in. Ive done this before somtimes the correct drivers are not on the drive but it will always boot to the OS and try.

Everything is stock with the laptop but it shows as 81mb of memory when it boots.

[BowerR64]

Can some one explain why the other laptop drive wont show on the IBM? this is another one that i dont understand.

[Edward Mendelson]

It would be a great help if you gave more information. You seem to be saying that you took a 1.2GB drive from "another laptop" - which kind of laptop? If it is a non-IBM laptop, then the drive was presumably NOT in a ThinkPad drive caddy (the black metal case). Did you put the drive in a ThinkPad drive caddy? Exactly HOW did you try to use the drive in the 760XL?

It's also at least remotely possible that the drive was encrypted, and that the drive will therefore work only in a computer that has the password for the drive encrypted in the BIOS. If that's the case, then the drive is worthless outside the original computer unless you know the password for it. But that's just a guess.

----- About installing DOS and Windows -------

You seem to be trying to install Windows and maybe DOS from third-party bootable CDs. This is completely wrong, and will NOT and can NOT work, because of two inescapable requirements: (1) if you want to install Windows from a CD, you need to boot the computer from that same CD and then install from it, AND (2) you cannot boot the 760XL from a CD, so you can't possibly fulfill requirement (1). In other words, since you can't boot from the CD in the first place, you can't install from a CD that you've booted from (because you couldn't boot from it in the first place).

The simple and only fact is this: you, you will absolutely, positively need a floppy drive if you want to install ANY version of DOS or Windows on the 760XL. Everything you have have tried until now will NOT and can NOT work. When you have a floppy drive for the 760XL, then try to install Windows.

(Note to experts who may be listening in: Yes, it's true that the ingenious Smart Boot Manager software makes it possible to boot from a bootable CD in the 760XL, but the Smart Boot Manager still requires that you boot the Smart Boot Manager itself from a floppy drive, so a floppy drive is still absolutely, positively required for installing any operating system in the 760XL.)

Once again: there is NO way to install any version of DOS or Windows in a 760XL without a floppy drive. There aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[BowerR64]

Yes the 1.2G drive came from another laptop a toshiba, i took out the IBM caddy and took apart the little plug that goes from the standard 2.5 IDE to the IBM drive caddy plug. I plug this into the drive then i plug them into the machine without them being in the drive caddy.

The plug is just a 2.5 to IBM plug adaptor.

I bought a 2.5 to 3.5 ide plug and i also bought a 2.5 to USB drive caddy that you can put any 2.5 drive into and plug them to 3.5 ide or in the USB drive caddy you plug them into USB

I can format the drive from any machine USB or IDE

Since i can plug the drive to 3.5 IDE and USB i can use the windows XP administrative tools to scan the drives and defrag them and stuff.

[BowerR64]

I think i know why the drive from the toshiba isnt showing on the IBM the jumpers are not correct.

The IBM plug i think also jumps the jumper settings on the drive. Like master, slave, drive 0 etc. The toshiba i think uses a different jumper configuration.

Does anyone know how the IBM drives in the 760 get jumped to? are they set to drive1 master or cable select?

[BowerR64]

never mind thats what it was, i went and looked at the Toshiba jumper config and it showed that the 2 ouside pins jumped were "prohibit" so i removed the jumper pins and it now sees the drive.

That is the drive i installed windows 9x (windows ME) shhh dont tell no one.

Its booting and the install is finishing. I think i may have it working now.

Its still finishing the ME install in the laptop so it may actualy setup all the correct drivers and stuff and work.

[BowerR64]

SO far so good



Now i wonder if using the jumper on the drive when i put it in my computer is what needs to actualy be done to fully clean it.

[BowerR64]

The IBM drive still has me puzzled. Now i know that drive has an issue, somthig is still on it i cant remove that goes with windows 2k server edition from the preveous owners install.

I got it all up and in the device manager the onlything that isnt working is the PCMCI and one of the com ports. It seems to have installed all the drivers for everything else.

Now that its up and running, i coppied all the cab files to the drive so i think i may try another install with the drive in the unit and see if it finds those 2 drivers.

Says i only have 800 meg left but the folder with the cabs in it can be deleted to save space now that its running the CDrom works

Now if that program i need "REW" will run on ME

Are there any drivers for the 760XL for windows 9x still around somewhere?

[Neil]

You will find all the drivers here.

And congrats for getting it installed. Not exactly the way I suggested, but hey, if it works that's all that matters.

[BowerR64]

Hey thanks Neil! only took me what 3-4 days? lol

now to crack that other drive, i think i can i think i can i think i can.

[pkiff]

Hey that's great you got it working, finally, BowerR64. I certainly had my doubts!

To get updates for Windows 2000 and earlier, I usually recommend ERPMan:
http://erpman1.tripod.com/

However, I see that the Windows 98 and ME pages are temporarily unavailable.

For Win98, there is a custom-built 98 SE Service Pack from Exuberant software available, that I would normally recommend as a good place to start when setting up a new Win 98 machine. But I don't know of any equivalent for ME.

98 SE Service Pack from Exuberant software:
http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

Phil.

[BowerR64]

Well i figured out the other drive, the 2.1G one that came with the unit.

I did the same thing to that drive as i did with the Toshiba, i bent the jumper pins over so that the 2.5 to IBM (the one that comes with the caddy tray) wasnt connecting the jumper on the drive and now its booting and working fine.

These are the stupid little problems with computers that i hate.

windows ME is finishing installing now then im going to try and upgrade it to 2K from ME i think i remember ME and 2K having issues doing upgrades from the Fat 32 to the 2K but im going to try anyway.

The part that sucks about all this is i won and paid for that floppy and when i get it, i wont even need it.

Hey Bower its not gona work, Hey Bower its not gona work, Hey Bower its not gona work

WOAH Bower... it worked!

[Edward Mendelson]

Well, this is one case where I'm glad I was wrong, and that you actually got an OS installed on the 760XL without a floppy drive. Could you spell out exactly how you did this? I think what you did was something like this, but it isn't entirely clear from your messages:

1. Either (a) you put a drive in another machine (not the ThinkPad), and you installed Win 98 on it there, or (b) You took a drive from another machine, which already had Win98 installed on it.

2. You copied all the CAB files from the Win Me CD to that Win98 drive (either on the other machine or on the ThinkPad - makes no difference).

3. You put the drive with Windows 98 on it into the ThinkPad, and booted to Windows 98. You then ran the Windows Me setup.exe program to install Windows Me.

That definitely would work. The surprising thing is that the Win98 setup you installed in the other machine was able to boot on the ThinkPad, and that presumably did the trick. IF that's actually what you did. It might be worth spelling this out for other people who might want to do the same.

You should have no trouble upgrading from Windows Me to Windows 2000 at this point. Well done!