First Glance... T510

[archer6]

My new T510 just arrived today. Here is the configuration:

4313CTO THINKPAD T510
45M4819 SBB I.C.I7P.POP3 2.XXGHZ,XMBL2
45M3090 VBB GENUWIN7PROFES.64
45M4918 SBB G.WIN.7PROF64US ENGLISH
45M4594 SBB 15.6HD+ANTI-GLW/LEDBKLIGH
45M4578 SBB NVNVSXXX512MBDDR3W/IAMTCH
42X6309 VBB 4GBPC3-8500 1067MHZ2DIMM
45M4839 SBB KEYBOARDUS ENGLISH
45M4631 SBB CAMERA(2.0 MP)
45M4618 SBB 500GB HDISK DRIVE7200RPM
45M4608 SBB MULT.RECORD.OPTDRIVE12.7MM
75Y0173 VBB EXPCASL+5IN1CARREAD+SMCASL
45M4816 SBB 9CELLLI-ION BATTERY
39T6442 SBB COUNTRY PACK NORTH AMERICA
45M3043 SBB BLUETOOTH W/ANTENNA
45M4803 SBB IN.CENT.ADVANCED-N 6200
45M4676 SBB LANGUAGEPACK US ENGLISH

I titled this post "First Glance", as the machine arrived late and I've not had time to do much thus far.

The big relief is at least it has a better keyboard than my late production T500. As far as comparing it to my all time favorite T60's and other T series, I will reserve that for later. It's a nice looking ThinkPad, even if it is saddled with a 16:9 display, and a horribly ugly appendage known as a 9 cell battery, the only choice at the time. Eager to see just what these new T series machines are like, and given my preference for 15" displays, I chose this one, with it's middle of the range HD+ display. At just 1600x900 the display is rather low res for me, and yet I decided on it since the FHD was back-ordered for an absolute minimum of four weeks or more.

Build quality seems to be decent if not slightly improved over the T500, but nothing that jumps out at me just yet. The one area of concern is the display lid. It's flexible, not rigid like nearly every prior ThinkPad I've owned and it causes me to wonder if this decision was a cost cutting move, where the engineers were overruled by the bean counters, or what. In turn that thought is rather disturbing, as like many of you, since Lenovo took over I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. Will they kill off our wonderful, solid and stellar ThinkPad as we know it? Who knows.

I do like the fact that they put the red and blue accents back in place and the buttons are more attractive than those of my T500. I truly enjoy the centered display in place of that ugly offset one on my T500. Also having matching sized hinges is a nice touch as well. While some people call this a "boring black box" I've always liked the squared off corners and plain industrial design, with it's purpose being functionality. It doesn't hurt that black is also a favorite color of mine. I'm purposely being terribly non-technical as this is simply my first impressions of the machine after less than 45 minutes. I have taken just a few minutes to boot it and run through setup to insure it was not DOA, so far so good. I was very curious about the Lenovo EE Experience they advertise on the web site, thus as my time permits I will have more for you on that. So there you have it my friends. Your questions are welcome. I may not have time to answer them all, so please forgive me if your request is not met.

Cheers...

[nxman]

Thanks,

For the useful information i bought a T500 few days ago because all T510 owners indicated that screen protection is insufficient and won't survive carrying it around sleeveless!

[pianowizard]

It's flexible, not rigid like nearly every prior ThinkPad I've owned and it causes me to wonder if this decision was a cost cutting move, where the engineers were overruled by the bean counters, or what. In turn that thought is rather disturbing, as like many of you, since Lenovo took over I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak.

Archer6, I was both surprised and glad to see these statements in your post. Prior to this review, you had given me the impression that you blindly worship the Thinkpads, but the above statements proved me wrong and have drastically increased the credibility of all your previous posts. Now I appreciate all your comments a lot more than I used to.

As far as this apparent decline in TP quality is concerned, it doesn't bother me at all because I doubt very much that I will ever buy another mainstream laptop. I have decided that for my future non-desktop computer purchases, only two options make sense: a super smartphone with a comfortable-to-use keyboard that can do most of the things a laptop can do (doesn't exist yet), or a super small netbook that fits in a pants pocket, like the envelope-sized Sony P series. Any conventional netbook or laptop requires a carrying case or backpack, which I find extremely inconvenient.

[archer6]

Archer6, I was both surprised and glad to see these statements in your post. Prior to this review, you had given me the impression that you blindly worship the Thinkpads, but the above statements proved me wrong and have drastically increased the credibility of all your previous posts. Now I appreciate all your comments a lot more than I used to.

As far as this apparent decline in TP quality is concerned, it doesn't bother me at all because I doubt very much that I will ever buy another mainstream laptop. I have decided that for my future non-desktop computer purchases, only two options make sense: a super smartphone with a comfortable-to-use keyboard that can do most of the things a laptop can do (doesn't exist yet), or a super small netbook that fits in a pants pocket, like the envelope-sized Sony P series. Any conventional netbook or laptop requires a carrying case or backpack, which I find extremely inconvenient.

Great post!

No, I'm not "married" to any brand, but rather a huge advocate of remaining open minded, embracing change when it's appropriate, and using the best tools for the job. I tend to be very outspoken when I find something that _is_ a great product, but only as long as it remains that way.

I'm sure based on your prior opinion, you may not have seen my other posts where I have mentioned that in the same time frame (over a decade) during which ThinkPads have been my laptop of choice, I've also purchased many of the competitors laptops each year, to stay up to speed on what the competition offers. In the event I would have found something better, I would have migrated to it, as I will never be closed minded. As a researcher, early adopter, and hard core tech person, I'm always checking out the latest available technologies and products.

I'm a huge mobile computing and communications enthusiast, who also has a vast amount of mobile and smartphone experience. I've owned nearly every smartphone created since the category was established. I maintain three lines (AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile) so as to have the enjoyment of testing as many phones as I desire from those carriers, as well as the many unlocked, unbranded phones I order direct from a distributor in Taiwan. All of which are smartphone's not available in the USA, but which do operate on the GSM frequencies of AT&T. It's a lot of fun and gives me a great point of reference, so as to be able to fairly evaluate and judge the latest phones as they are released here in the US.

For me, and the lifestyle / workstyle I maintain, a laptop still has a place as my main computer and will for the foreseeable future. Yet that said I can also appreciate where you are coming from, for your needs. I also believe that for many people that have not educated themselves on the alternative choices to a laptop, they are missing out on a great opportunity to do what you are doing.

Cheers...

[Black_and_White_Mage]

Do the 9-cell battery stick out? This will be the first Thinkpad I have ever own, so I don't know to expect.

[archer6]

Do the 9-cell battery stick out? This will be the first Thinkpad I have ever own, so I don't know to expect.

Yes it does and it's bulbous and unsightly. However at this point, according to Lenovo it's the only battery available so I bought my T510 and placed a separate order for the 6 cell. Hopefully it will not be too long before they are released as they are flush with the back of the computer. Just what I'm used to.

[pianowizard]

I'm sure based on your prior opinion, you may not have seen my other posts where I have mentioned that in the same time frame (over a decade) during which ThinkPads have been my laptop of choice, I've also purchased many of the competitors laptops each year

Actually, I had read many of your earlier posts stating this fact, but I wasn't sure whether you compared these non-Thinkpads to the Thinkpads in a fair, unbiased way. You have claimed many times that "All Thinkpads I have used are far superior to all other brands of laptops", which differed significantly from my own experience with laptops (lots of Thinkpads, quite a few Dells, plus some Sonys, HPs and Toshibas), and so I was led into thinking that you had been biased in the comparisons. But like I said in my previous post above, I am now convinced that you are more open-minded that I had thought. We all use our laptops in different ways, and naturally we often come to different conclusions regarding laptop quality. For me, the Thinkpads are only slightly better than other brands, whereas for you, Thinkpads beat all other brands by miles.

Have you had much experience with Asus laptops? They have been rated extremely favorably in recent reliability surveys, beating all other PC laptop brands including Lenovo.

I'm a huge mobile computing and communications enthusiast, who also has a vast amount of mobile and smartphone experience. I've owned nearly every smartphone created since the category was established. I maintain three lines (AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile)

Which smartphone do you think is currently the most versatile and powerful? My carrier is Sprint and their top smartphone is the HTC Touch Pro 2. If you have tried this phone, how does it compare to other top-of-the-line phones?

To make this post a bit less off topic: It's good to know that Lenovo finally decided to move the display to the center. I have always been disgusted by the way-off-centered screens of the T61 and more recent Thinkpads, though I can tolerate the slightly-off-centered screens of pre-T61 Thinkpads.

[dr_st]

First congrats to archer6 on the new toy!

Regarding the display lid:

From what I understand, Lenovo moved away from the lid rollcage that was present in the T61/Tx00 series. I don't really know why, but this is what appears from the Tabook and the various images I saw online, where the lid is clearly thinner than before. It reminds me the lid of the 14" T60 I have. Mine is being carried around a lot in a padded, but often stuffed backpack, and I can say that while the lid does adequate job protecting the screen from any serious damage (cracks, heavy pressure marks), it seems to be vulnerable to some pressure, and I've had minor sections of the LCD coating scraped off, as well as the classic round trackpoint pressure mark from the soft rim.

Interestingly, in the past the lid of the 15" models, even before the rollcage, was typically much thicker and sturdier than the 14" models (comparing, for instance 14" and 15" T60/T4x). I wonder how the T510 fares against the T410 in this department.

Regarding the battery, I believe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Yes, it feels a bit more bulky and out-of-place, compared to the 9cell battery of previous 15" wide and 14" standard screen models (probably mostly due to the sharp edges where the smooth curves used to be), and it may actually be a bit larger and heavier, but it is now the same battery used on both T510 and T410, which is definitely an improvement compared to the totally huge and bulky 9cell battery of 14"W T61/T400. And the best part - it is 94Wh instead of 84Wh - that can easily translate into 30-60 extra minutes of battery life.

Finally, to comment on the slightly off-topic discussion regarding Thinkpad vs other brands. Basically, it boils down to the individual user requirements. The average user may not be particular to anything, so for him the choice is huge, and he can choose his laptop based on looks, price/performance, reliability surveys and what not. But for some, there are certain features that can be complete deal breakers.

For instance, I absolutely cannot accept a laptop without a trackpoint and docking station support. This immediately limits my choices to the business lines of DELL, HP and Lenovo (and a couple of other brands/models, not widely marketed, and not readily available in my home country, being the small market segment it is).

Between these three, I have chosen Lenovo in the past years due to mostly two factors: the quality and layout of the keyboard/trackpoint (at least up to the T60 series the keyboard was consistently good, and the trackpoint is still better than competition), and my experience with the quality of Lenovo technical support in my home country, which is excellent both for in-warranty (timely, well-done repairs) and post-warranty (easily obtainable parts, often reasonable prices, damage analysis that's done for free even when laptop is out of warranty).

To someone else, the priority list can be entirely different. For instance, many many people want to connect their laptop to their LCD TV. To them, an HDMI output or at least a compatible DisplayPort with audio support is a must, and that just throws all of Lenovo's touted Thinkpad line, except the Thinkpad SL out of the window.

[Black_and_White_Mage]

archer6, what are the dimensions of the t510 with the 9 cell battery? Do you think it would fix into a Macbook Pro 15" case?

[JLEN191]

Most likely they cut the roll cage from the lid because it made the laptop go above their standards of weight limit and thickness. I'm curious as to what parts required it to be so much thicker.

[freakwave]

I am pretty sure it is the UltraBay. In my opinion a big step backward. Before they had the ultraslim drives. So to keep the overall thickness they had to slim down the lid.

Wolfgang

[archer6]

We all use our laptops in different ways, and naturally we often come to different conclusions regarding laptop quality. For me, the Thinkpads are only slightly better than other brands, whereas for you, Thinkpads beat all other brands by miles. Have you had much experience with Asus laptops?

Yes I like the Asus brand and have had some good luck with their laptops. The one missing component that I rely on is the TrackPoint, in lieu of having that feature they will always be an alternative. Currently I'm going on one month of ownership of a B50A which is quite nice. Here is a link: http://usa.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=b6OYPJTAQBOA7cbz

Which smartphone do you think is currently the most versatile and powerful? My carrier is Sprint and their top smartphone is the HTC Touch Pro 2. If you have tried this phone, how does it compare to other top-of-the-line phones?

I created a thread for smartphone discussion here:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=84913

Cheers...

[archer6]

archer6, what are the dimensions of the t510 with the 9 cell battery? Do you think it would fix into a Macbook Pro 15" case?

I'm out and away from my T510 presently, so I will give you an estimate of the size, I will say that the depth front to rear of the notebook with the 9 cell battery is approx 11 inches. I have a very nice laptop briefcase that I carry my new Unibody MacBook Pro (15") in, and no the T510 will not fit in that case, I've already tried. In fact this battery may very well end up being a deal breaker for me. It's so bulky and protrudes so far out, that I literally have to stuff it in one of the many fine laptop cases I have. In addition, I have no use for the additional run time it offers and since it only spans about 60% of the way across the rear of the computer it "rock"s in the top loading laptop case if I put it in battery first, if I put it in with the front edge down, then the battery interferes with the zipper of the case. If I used it as a desktop replacement and didn't travel with it then it would be a different matter, but I bought it to be my daily driver and for that purpose it's simply too bulky, heavy and ugly. Unfortunately Lenovo has no idea whatsoever about the possible future availability of the 6 cell, and even referred me to a third party battery reseller ? ! Hello? Lenovo? Anybody home?

Cheers..

[Black_and_White_Mage]

Did the T510 come with a lot of trial software that need to be removed? If so, which programs did you remove?

[archer6]

Each time I purchase a new ThinkPad I unpack it, then give it a quick boot to insure it's not DOA. Then I plan a large block of free time to do the setup routine I use. I have that time scheduled for Monday. Once that's done I will post the list of trialware that I find. Typically I remove everything, leaving only the factory OS & utilities.
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Cheers...

[georgema]

Looking forward to your review as you have good experience with the entire TP range and an unbiased approach.

Cheers, GMA

[thebitguru]

I am deciding between the Macbook Pro and T510. Keeping the OS out of the picture, how do you think the hardware/built of the two compare? I realize that the 9-cell battery is an issue plus the T510 is more up to date (Core i processors), but what about the rest?

Is the multi-touch touchpad comparable to that of the Macbook Pro? I especially enjoyed Macbook Pro's three finger gestures for navigating. I am also curious about the ThinkLight vs. backlit difference... which one do you prefer?

[blackomegax]

having used macbook pro 15 and 17's, and thinkpad x40/x61/t61/x200's

modern macbooks make thinkpads seem clunky, but that's not why we have thinkpads.

build quality is equal, i'd say.
apple has FAR better cable management in its power supply
apple has a FAR superior lcd.

backlit kb is useless if you need to read papers.

[sanjuro]

Macbook pro is nicer aesthetically than the thinkpads. Their chiclet keyboard isn't bad, but it's still chiclet though backlit. (Backlit keyboard looks very cool in dark room or in airplanes.) The matte LCD in the 17" macbook pro may be one of the best among notebooks. It's a nice elegant looking package - probably a winner among present day notebooks. The design if quite mature now. Can't upgrade HD or battery without opening the bottom. 7hr batter is nice and doesn't stick out in the back. Latest rumor is that there should be an impending i7/i5 arrandale update soon.

Thinkpads have a different design philosophy and is more functional. The keyboard is traditional selectric kind. I didn't like the T400's design. It was a step backward. Can't say about T410 or T510. X30x is a better design, but I don't understand why Lenovo didn't apply the X30x design to other thinkpads other than possibly T400s (now T410s). Much has been said about the (lack of) quality of Thinkpad LCD's. I never use thinklight. There is no cool factor to thinklight. Batteries can last long but will stick out in the back.

If you want a better LCD (either matte or glossy), go with a macbook pro. Better keyboard, thinkpad. Attractive package, macbook pro. Dependable robustness, thinkpad. Reliability: toss-up? Probably comes down to your preference for OS.

I use both TP and MBP and life is better and more interesting that way. Even hackintoshed two of the thinkpads on occasion. Just too much trouble to keep it going and Apple eventually brought back matte LCD as well.

[archer6]

I am deciding between the Macbook Pro and T510. Keeping the OS out of the picture, how do you think the hardware/built of the two compare? I realize that the 9-cell battery is an issue plus the T510 is more up to date (Core i processors), but what about the rest?

In my opinion these are simply two _different_ laptops, as opposed to one being better than the other. Each having their own unique set of pros and cons. Build quality goes to the MBP as it's simple design and aluminum unibody construction is machined out of a solid piece of aluminum. The top panel which houses the display is also aluminum, thus very rigid and flex free. ThinkPad T510 being made out of a variety of plastic compounds while high quality, are subject to some flex. One aspect of the T510 I am unhappy with is the flex in the top panel which if pressure is applied, causes distortion as well as contact between the TrackPoint and the display (when closed) this is unacceptable for an experienced company like Lenovo.

Is the multi-touch touchpad comparable to that of the Macbook Pro? I especially enjoyed Macbook Pro's three finger gestures for navigating. I am also curious about the ThinkLight vs. backlit difference... which one do you prefer?

I prefer the backlit keys of the MBP, as they are easier to see as your hands do not cover the flow of light projected down from the frame of the display as on the ThinkPad. Yet that said, either work, their just different. The new touchpad on the T510 is good, whereas the all glass touchpad of the MacBook Pro is terrific. I don't like touchpads as a rule, yet I must admit I really like the one on the Mac. After one becomes accustomed to the gestures and the appropriate pressure required (not much) to execute the various commands, it becomes very enjoyable to use.

[asiafish]

archer6, what are the dimensions of the t510 with the 9 cell battery? Do you think it would fix into a Macbook Pro 15" case?

Doubtful. I have a case from my old T400 and my new 15" MacBook Pro fits, barely. The T510 is significantly larger than the T400. while the MacBook Pro is in between the two, but closer in size to the T400 than the T500.

[Black_and_White_Mage]

I guess I could give the case to my lab partner who just got a new macbook pro. Thanks for the heads up. I should be getting my t510 today along with a x200.

[archer6]

I guess I could give the case to my lab partner who just got a new macbook pro. Thanks for the heads up. I should be getting my t510 today along with a x200.

I'm eager to here your opinion regarding the flexible display lid of the T510. I'm so used to ThinkPads being of rigid, high quality construction, the thin, flexible panel is of concern to me. As far as build quality the rest is fine. Time constraints have prevented me from setting up my new T510 thus far. As a result I've had more time to think about this issue. I must admit I'm not happy with that aspect.
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Cheers...

[ThinkRob]

I'm eager to here your opinion regarding the flexible display lid of the T510. I'm so used to ThinkPads being of rigid, high quality construction, the thin, flexible panel is of concern to me. As far as build quality the rest is fine. Time constraints have prevented me from setting up my new T510 thus far. As a result I've had more time to think about this issue. I must admit I'm not happy with that aspect.

And here people thought I was nitpicking and exaggerating when I noticed a similar issue with the WXGA+ X200s lid...

[zekeblue]

My low tech solution to protecting the display is to lay a dry sheet of Swiffer Sweeper over the keyboard before closing the lid. It is a soft layer that will keep keyboard imprints from occurring on the display. I don't yet have a thinkpad. My 15" Asus M6BNe accommodates it fine. However, my wife's 13.3" Sony SZ's lid won't close with that layer added.

Low tech, but if you already have a vulnerable unit, one that can work.

[archer6]

Placing a thin piece of material over the keyboard is a practice dating back years ago, to the Apple PowerBook days. Since Apple was one of the first laptop manufacturers to obsess on style, and building the thinnest notebooks. On the other hand, IBM (at that time) was known for building reasonably thin, extremely well engineered and robust laptops called ThinkPads that closed without pressing the face of the display against the TrackPoint and keyboard. Durability and functionality were the hallmarks of a ThinkPad.
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Times change and things change. Sadly the T510 I just took delivery of, shows signs of cost cutting measures, sacrificing part of their heritage that long time users like myself expect from this previously premium brand. The soft, thin, flexible plastic lid, now reminds me of the much cheaper brands available at the consumer level. Pedaled by places like Best Buy, to the consumer who will bring it home and use it for movies...meh!
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Watching my well respected ThinkPad mission critical business tool, slip into the abyss of cost cutting caused by rearranging priorities as dictated by corporate bean counters, is a true disappointment. While I'm not writing them off just yet, this T510 may be the first new T series ThinkPad I sell just days after acquiring it. The reasons are many, and they extend beyond the cheap lid and 16:9 display. Let's put it this way. The shortcomings are such that I've chosen not to invest the time to "move in" for a long term test.
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Cheers...

[ThinkRob]

Watching my well respected ThinkPad mission critical business tool, slip into the abyss of cost cutting caused by rearranging priorities as dictated by corporate bean counters, is a true disappointment.

Sigh. Indeed.

[nikki605]

Placing a thin piece of material over the keyboard is a practice dating back years ago, to the Apple PowerBook days. Since Apple was one of the first laptop manufacturers to obsess on style, and building the thinnest notebooks. On the other hand, IBM (at that time) was known for building reasonably thin, extremely well engineered and robust laptops called ThinkPads that closed without pressing the face of the display against the TrackPoint and keyboard. Durability and functionality were the hallmarks of a ThinkPad.
.
Times change and things change. Sadly the T510 I just took delivery of, shows signs of cost cutting measures, sacrificing part of their heritage that long time users like myself expect from this previously premium brand. The soft, thin, flexible plastic lid, now reminds me of the much cheaper brands available at the consumer level. Pedaled by places like Best Buy, to the consumer who will bring it home and use it for movies...meh!
.
Watching my well respected ThinkPad mission critical business tool, slip into the abyss of cost cutting caused by rearranging priorities as dictated by corporate bean counters, is a true disappointment. While I'm not writing them off just yet, this T510 may be the first new T series ThinkPad I sell just days after acquiring it. The reasons are many, and they extend beyond the cheap lid and 16:9 display. Let's put it this way. The shortcomings are such that I've chosen not to invest the time to "move in" for a long term test.
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Cheers...

Out of curiosity, what would you replace the 510 with? Would you go with a different Lenovo model or move to a different brand? If so, what brand?

I have been following topics in this forum as I have been thinking about a T4X0 or a T5X0.

[dr_st]

FWIW, Trackpoint pressing against the keyboard has been an issue with older laptops as well, at least the thinner 14" models. This is definitely not something new.

[archer6]

I have every ThinkPad I've bought new each year for the last decade. Thus I have no lack of choices. The ones I've bought in the last 2 yrs are all in pristine working condition, updated and running well. I will most probably continue to use my W500 workstation as my main work machine. The reason I bought the T510 immediately upon their release, was to get a look at the new model since the W510 was not yet available. If the T510 would have met my criterion, then the plan was to buy a fully loaded W510, upon taking delivery swap out the HD for two SSD's, add more memory and replace my W500 with the newly modified W510. Since that's not going to happen I will move forward without a new machine this product cycle and wait to see what Lenovo does with the upcoming T & W 520's. Hopefully they will have responded to customer feedback and put the roll cage back in the lid, or use a metal lid, or carbon fiber one, instead of the thin CFRP Plastic one they used for this model.
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That said I have many other brands I've been testing in parallel. HP workstations and Dells, are just two. Unfortunately neither of these exceed the ThinkPad standard in all areas. They may in many cases have better displays or other highlights, but none offer the total package nor the stellar TrackPoint I so greatly prefer.
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For a personal Laptop I've just purchased a 17" MacBook Pro. The hi-res, bright, matte display is outstanding, as is the fact that its less than 1/2 lb. heavier, only an inch think, and only 1" wider than the T510. Unlike the thick bulky form factor of other 17" machines, this fits in the same laptop case as my 15" widescreen ThinkPads.
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Cheers...