T41P Reballing

[somefun]

Has anyone tried these guys:
http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Motherboard-Rep ... 45ee6522a1

They seem to have many satisfied customers on Ebay. Also I was wondering if anyone has any recent experience with GPU Medics. I think I've
read all of the posts here concerning them (and their alter ego Superior). I have the impression that if they actually get to your board that
their work is good. Just apprehensive about the customer service part... What do you think?

thanks,
Curt

[ajkula66]

Read the sticky and decide for yourself...

http://forums.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77322

[somefun]

Probably my biggest concern at this point is workmanship / long-term reliability. I bought my T41 as "refurbished" just 3 months ago and I wonder if the refurbishing was on the GPU. I know there are several approaches to this; do-it-yourself reflow, professional reflow, reballing. I want a reliable, permanent fix. The best bet, I'm sure, would be reballing. Does anyone have any long-term reports on how the repairs have held up? From what I understand, reballed is better than original with the ATI GPU.

Thanks,
Curt

[ajkula66]

somefun wrote:

From what I understand, reballed is better than original with the ATI GPU.

It's really not that simple. A lot of factors - sheer luck being one of them - come into equation.

I've had a couple of boards re-balled in the past, and these machines are still up and running, some of them have survived shipping to Europe in the meantime.

Having said that, I'd go with the later model (red dot) board sooner than with a re-balled one, but that's me.

My $0.02 only...

[somefun]

What is a "red dot" board?

[ajkula66]

Once IBM had realized the extent of GPU failures on T4x/R5x machines, they implemented an enhanced GPU support on T43/p machines in the spring of 2005. Some refurbished boards, along with all T42/p planars made after that time had the same process implemented. These boards have several little red dots around the GPU area.

Do these boards fail? Yes, but less than previous ones.

Any T4x board will fail if the machine is handled carelessly, but that's a whole another matter...

Good luck.

[somefun]

Thanks for your help, George!

Curt

[killer]

@somefun: If you post your location (which I thought was a requirement of being a member of the forum) then we might have some clue as to suggestions for solving your problem.

[somefun]

killer,

I have updated my profile. Thanks!

Curt

[killer]

killer,

I have updated my profile. Thanks!

Curt

No problem, matey. I now see that you are in Wa ... Washington state I think. Oh well, no good pointing you at poshgeordie then, who lives near the original Washington in NE England.

RealBlackStuff has some sources in the USA for reballing. I can't remember where they are. Old age strikes again, however, if you look for his name in the forum and send him a PM, I think he will be able to help.

Good luck.

[poshgeordie]

As a reflowing company in UK, I may be able to answer some of the queries.

Firstly red / black / continuous stips of clear epoxy as on T43's don't seems to stop the gpu from becoming unsoldered, and make the job a little more "challenging" (especially the clear epoxy).
Also it's essential that the reflowing company do remove these dots / clear epoxy since the chip needs to be able to move freely during the reflow, especially downwards. If a company returns a board to you and they are still present then they haven't done the job properly and the reflow will fail again.

How long does a reflow last for? I hope that as a company we are sufficiently open with our customers that they feel they can come back to us at any time in the future - especially outside our 90 day guarantee period - and tell us if a reflow has failed.

Maybe it's just a general apathy or the thought that is it really worth getting in touch again, but I'm struggling to think of anyone who has got back to us.
Also we do work with contractors who would definitely get back to us if boards failed, and none of them have.
So what I'm saying is that providing the job's done properly (by any company) and the laptop is carried / moved correctly then a reflow will add considerably to the laptop's life.

Reball or reflow? There is a train of thought that says that because the graphics and southbridge chips are large components, during the manufacturing process they don't have as much of a chance to reach the correct soldering temperature and therefore the BGA solder joints will suffer from earlier failure.
I've actually seen evidence of this using a very expensive reflowing station which uses a macro camera to look at the solderballs in real time as they are being reflowed. On the board in question (not a TP), it was obvious that the solder balls had not ever melted onto the pads and all that was needed was a simple reflow - job done!

There are issues with reflowing lead free solder balls since it's very easy to cause the lead free solder to crystalise / oxidise through too much heat or the right heat for too long, and therefore reballing is preferable.

When looking for a reflowing company, they should be aware of all this.

[somefun]

Thanks for your insights, Nick! Are the epoxies that you mention on the underside of the board where the pins on the chip come through?

Thanks,
Curt

[poshgeordie]

Hi Curt

The clear epoxy is mainly just on chips on later models of T43 and I think I've seen it on a T42p. You find it around the outside of the chip in the tiny gap between the bottom of the graphics chip and the top of the mother board, and needs a special hard-to-get chemical solvent to soften it.
Also it extends into the first two solder ball rows under the graphics chip, and if you try a conventional reflow it "popcorns" those solder balls - ie they fly out from underneath the chip as heat is applied.

EDIT> just reread your post - the graphics chip has around 700 tiny solder balls which solder directly onto corresponding pads on the motherboard - not pins.

Chips with this clear epoxy can only be reballed after softening and removing as much of the epoxy as possible, and then has to be removed from the graphics chip when it's been removed from the board - a really tricky job which can easily damage the chip.

The Red / black dots are at least two to each side of the chip with sometimes another in the middle and can be cut away using something like a scalpel, but care has to be taken to not snap the fragile blade.

You can see that there's a lot more to reflowing than just applying that heat!

[somefun]

Great explanation, Nick! I'm starting to get a clearer idea of how this all works. I will be disassembling my T41 tonight, and I'm anxious to see how things look.

I can now see how these chips could come loose so easily if the board flexes at all. It seems that the solder is literally "gluing" them to the board as well as making the electrical connection. I also can see why pressing down on the chip could make a connection and therefore help diagnose the problem.

Thanks Again,
Curt

[ajkula66]

I'm very glad that Nick has chosen to add his two pennies (more like two quid, really... ) and have really nothing to add to his explanations that are both very well conceived and presented, apart from one observation...

The nature of Nick's business is dealing with boards that have already failed, or are at least suspected to be going in that unfortunate (for the owner) direction. Given the number of T4x/R5x units in existence, of course there will be planars with enhanced support that have failed, and yes, these are somewhat of a PITA to work on...

On the other side of the coin, I'm a re-seller and have gone through a fairly scary number of T4x/R5x machines over the last several years. My experience - to be taken only for what it is, no more and no less - is that the later boards fail less than the early ones. If I had to dissect, the ones most likely to fail are planars with Radeon 7500 from T41 and early T42 machines, which could have something to do with the switch to RoHS. The next ones would be the "p" boards from the same generation (T41p, T42p and R50p) and we could go on and on...also, 14" units fail more than 15" ones...

The least likely to fail are T43/p machines, at least ones in my possession... ...so far I've had one loose GPU (T43p), one bad Southbridge (T43) and one no-one-knows-why-but-it-just-died (T43p). I've also been notified by one customer recently that T43 they had bought from me a year ago has just lost the sound card for good, but I've seen that on quite a few ThinkPads, most often on standard A31 units...OK now I digress...

IBM has taken no steps to address this issue for the longest time, since first massive ATi GPU failures date back to A31p, and are in most cases very similar to what was to be seen on ATi-based T4x/R5x units a couple of years later. Quality control obviously left something to be desired, even in "the golden days"...

If you lived in the UK, somefun, I'd send you to Nick right then and there, no questions asked. However, I'm sad to say that no one around here has managed to keep the same standard of excellence for any length of time, at least not to my knowledge. Therefore, getting a replacement board from a trustworthy source (no, I don't have one to offer you... ) should be considered as an option if you like the machine well enough.

My experiences and opinions only.

[poshgeordie]

Well, I guess that between George and myself, we have thoroughly covered both sides of the story. It's encouraging that later boards are better but discouraging that IBM / lenovo (like most other manufacturers) have at worst done nothing about this, and at best have paid lip service to it with a short periods of extended "warranties" to address the issue.

The blame also has to be placed at the doors of both ATI and Nvidia who skirt round the issue. OK, Nivida have set aside a lot of money to reimburse laptop manufacturers but don't appear to have offered re-engineered GPU's.
Interestingly Intel GPU chipped T43 series machines are conspicuously trouble free, but their Southbridge chips suffer from unsoldering.

I mention Nivida (ATI and Intel GPU's only are fitted to T4x series), because the next big horror story looks to be T61 / p's which are fitted with Nvidia GPU's, and which are now becoming unsoldered.
From my research across a number of forums (and of which George is also active!) I suspect there is going to be an avalanche of laptops with this issue.
I make the caveat that I see things from the repairers point of view and hopefully George will paint a rosier picture.

You gotta feel sorry for laptop manufacturers who are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to specifying GPU's!

BTW a blatant plug - I need someone to send me a faulty T61 / p for us to look at, so we can set up to reball (NOT reflow) these chips. We need to do a solder ball count and pattern check so we can buy the right templates. The "lucky" lender will get a free reball thrown in as well. Please check this post for more details.

I'm getting quite a lot of enquiries from US and as far afield as Australia. My problem is that return carriage costs are horrendeous and it's got me thinking that if someone in US (or Aussie or wherever) could act as a central collection depot and then send a number of boards off to UK, I think it would be possible to greatly reduce those carriage costs per customer.

Apologies for dragging the topic away. Suggest you PM me if you'd like to think about helping out and we can privately discuss the feasibility, work out costs etc, and if there's interest I'll start a new topic.

[ajkula66]

Somewhat off-topic, and I apologize to OP and everyone else in advance...

poshgeordie wrote:

I make the caveat that I see things from the repairers point of view and hopefully George will paint a rosier picture.

There is NO rosier picture to be painted when it comes to T61/p nVidia debacle, and there will be none anytime soon unless you find a way of fixing the darned chip...

[somefun]

So when I upgrade from my T41p to the next generation of Thinkpads (and I always buy used and a couple of years old), what exactly do I look for in terms of reliability?

Thanks,
Curt

[virge]

I'm currently in the process of moving from T4x/R5x machines to T60 and R60 ones. These machines seem to be very durable. They're still fairly new to me but so far I have been impressed.

[poshgeordie]

Yeah me too - I've sold some T60's and been V impressed. AFAIK T60 is viceless.

[Norway Pad]

That's the same conclusion I have made after digesting what I have read here. When I sometime move on from the T43, I will find a top end T60 from a reliable source. No matter if I have to pay the little extra for a top example. So far I haven't found any reported and known issues with them. I am not so worried for the T43 as I am for the T42 regarding CPU failures, but better have one with no worries at all.

[virge]

I'm currently in the process of moving from T4x/R5x machines to T60 and R60 ones. These machines seem to be very durable. They're still fairly new to me but so far I have been impressed.

My T42P overheard that. I think its upset at me now! http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85133

[somefun]

My T41p's motherboard just boarded a plane (or truck) to Illinois today. Soon I will have a report on GPU Medics.... hopefully a good one!

Curt

[somefun]

Just got an email from Gpu Medics stating that my board was done and has tested good. Sent payment via PayPal. I'll post back when I receive it and how everything works once the Thinkpad is reassembled...
Thanks,
Curt

[somefun]

Got an email from GPU Medics yesterday stating that board has been shipped, also got one from PayPal which included USPS tracking number and shipping address. Unfortunately, GPU Medics has shipped my board to someone else (presumably another customer). I Emailed and called G.M. within 1/2 hour of them sending me the email above, but no response (they have an answering machine handle all of their calls... even during business hours). So I'm thinking my board will arrive at it's wrong destination before G.M. reads their emails or listens to their messages.
Good news is that the guy that they shipped it to is only about 1/2 hour away from me. So I Googled his name and business name and found an his email address. Just emailed him and notified him that he'll be getting my board in the mail and I'll try to make arrangements to pick it up from him directly. Hopefully he'll understand...
What is the matter with these guys!!

Curt

[somefun]

Well, the saga is over, and I'm happy to report that everything turned out okay! Turns out that G.M. actually sent my board to my address; their email and the email from PayPal just showed that they sent it to the wrong address. I called G.M. yesterday morning, spoke with Robert, and he explained that. He gave me the right tracking number, and the board actually arrived yesterday afternoon.

Put the laptop back together last night, and so far so good! I'm using it right now.
I will be more careful in handling it in the future (and I thought I was before!). No more one-handed, bend-over-the-side-of-the-couch-to-set-it-down moves! Well, maybe if the lid's closed!

My impression with GPU Medics is that they know what they're doing, just lack some basic business skills like answering emails promply, and picking up the phone during business hours, and returning phone calls when you leave a message. I will say that they were very courteous when I did finally get ahold of them.
Hope this helps someone else when deciding whether to give them your business or not... the decision is ultimately up to you.

Thanks,
Curt

[beeblebrox]

Well, I guess that between George and myself, we have thoroughly covered both sides of the story. It's encouraging that later boards are better but discouraging that IBM / lenovo (like most other manufacturers) have at worst done nothing about this, and at best have paid lip service to it with a short periods of extended "warranties" to address the issue.

The blame also has to be placed at the doors of both ATI and Nvidia who skirt round the issue. OK, Nivida have set aside a lot of money to reimburse laptop manufacturers but don't appear to have offered re-engineered GPU's.
Interestingly Intel GPU chipped T43 series machines are conspicuously trouble free, but their Southbridge chips suffer from unsoldering.

I mention Nivida (ATI and Intel GPU's only are fitted to T4x series), because the next big horror story looks to be T61 / p's which are fitted with Nvidia GPU's, and which are now becoming unsoldered.
From my research across a number of forums (and of which George is also active!) I suspect there is going to be an avalanche of laptops with this issue.
I make the caveat that I see things from the repairers point of view and hopefully George will paint a rosier picture.

You gotta feel sorry for laptop manufacturers who are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to specifying GPU's!

BTW a blatant plug - I need someone to send me a faulty T61 / p for us to look at, so we can set up to reball (NOT reflow) these chips. We need to do a solder ball count and pattern check so we can buy the right templates. The "lucky" lender will get a free reball thrown in as well. Please check this post for more details.

I'm getting quite a lot of enquiries from US and as far afield as Australia. My problem is that return carriage costs are horrendeous and it's got me thinking that if someone in US (or Aussie or wherever) could act as a central collection depot and then send a number of boards off to UK, I think it would be possible to greatly reduce those carriage costs per customer.

Apologies for dragging the topic away. Suggest you PM me if you'd like to think about helping out and we can privately discuss the feasibility, work out costs etc, and if there's interest I'll start a new topic.

Hi Nick,
are you sure that the T61 series has this unsoldering as well? After reading a few reports on those nVidia chips I got the impression that internal bonding wires detach, which is within the nVidia chip. That's why nVidia has put $200m aside for warranty repairs for HP, Dell etc.
Or is it a separate second problem in addition to the GPU flexing?

cheers,
Beeblebrox

[somefun]

Just wanted to let everyone know that everything is still operating perfectly... I use this laptop daily... on my lap, in and out of its bag, to and from work (it's handled alot!). I do try to support it carefully, but it's definitely withstood the test of time! Hope this helps!

[Norway Pad]

Good to hear! Also good to hear that the T41 still covers your need. (Uhm, I am typing this on a T30..)

It is nice to have the this kind of feedback where we see that things work out, instead of just reading about all the T4x units that fail. This gives me, and hopefully others, the kick to actually have our T4xs repaired if/when they fail, and the confidence that the repair will last.

[Temetka]

I just received a very nice T43 2886-YHS 14.1" unit from our own ajkula last week.

This is my 3rd T4x machine. My first was a T41p which I fell in love with, but sold due to some financial stress. Then I bought a T42 about a year or so later and ended up giving that to my friend because his laptop at the time was supbar to say the least. The company I was working for gave me a T60 which I eventually traded to another forum member here for an X41 Tablet which has been traded to ajkula for the T43 this post has been brought to you by.

Whew! That's a mouthful.

So why am I posting in this thread?

My old T41p went on to a life of service in a loving household and afaik still continues to serve them well today. The T42 did succumb to the GPU failure because my friend did not listen to me and carried it around open by the corner, flexing the planar board and popping the GPU loose. He is looking for a replacement planar now.

So....

Here's to hoping that this machine serves me well for a long time to come. The T4x units even with their flaws and single core processors were always my favorite Thinkpads. The multi-colored keyboard, the red and blue stripes on the mouse buttons, the shape of the mouse buttons on the trackpad area. These things grant a sense of style and elegance in my opinion that their later brethren are missing. In essence these machines, to my eye at the least, are far more aesthetically pleasing than later models.

I completely happy with the performance of this T43 even though it is using a 30gb 4200RPM drive. Windows 7 is very snappy. I have a brand new 160GB Western Digital drive on the way to me. I had one that died and RMA'd it back to WD 2 weeks ago. It should be here any day. That drive is going to be cloned from this one. I am very confident that my system performance will be even better than what is right now. Which will make me a very happy thinkpadder indeed.