Help with computer decision for engineering programs...

[ss08x]

I am an engineering student and currently working in the field. I currently have a computer that just isn’t working for what I need to do (let alone everything else), which is working in SolidWorks and Mastercam.

A friend of mine recently purchased a well equipped W500 for ~$1200 when they were on sale a while ago, and it performs great. Unfortunately, the W500 is gone, and replaced with the new W510, which costs more and I am a little weary of because it’s new and I have read of some problems with it. I’ve also looked at W500’s from resellers, but they are asking too much, and I am poor to begin with.

I ran through the customizing processes of the W510 and the W700, and they will cost ~$1800 and ~$2000 respectively with the current promotions. If I had the money, I would probably lean towards the W700 for the little price gap, but weight and size are a little extreme for me. Regardless, my budget is closer to $1000.

That being said, are there any other options out there that can run my programs well and still render the images just as well? (under $1000????)

(Dell and HP computers are not something I am interested in anymore)

Note:
This first post is straighter to the point, and the post below is more round-about, but there is some more information embedded in there, especially at the end.

[ss08x]

You can say I have set myself up for failure, and it seems I am now looking to do it again…. 3 years ago I purchased a Dell Inspiron 6400 with all the options. I decided against buying a Dell Precision notebook to save money, although I spent the same amount on the 6400 with all the options as the base Precision model costs (don’t ask me why, because I still don’t know). Unfortunately, this has been the worst mistake ever (a $1700 mistake)... I have spent well over 100 hours on the phone with Dell support for the last three years, and as a result, my computer is now stable, finally, and that is all it is. Performance is still bad. But it has a beautiful WSXGA+ glossy LCD 15.4" screen, which is its only desirable attribute. Going back to performance, the graphics card is not capable of OpenGL graphics, and thus SolidWorks, Mastercam, and Inventor don't display very well. But this computer has never done anything well, so I am not sure how to gauge what I new computer could do. Anyways, I am in the market for a new computer that can run these programs well, and what I really need is a mobile workstation.

Unfortunately, I have yet to find the tree that grows money, and putting myself through school seems to have the opposite effect by making money disappear. Ideally, I would like to find a notebook under $1000 that can run my engineering programs flawlessly. In order to run my engineering programs flawlessly, I should be looking at a workstation, which start at $1600 (W510). Being the financially poor student I am, I have been looking into 'alternate' systems, and found the following T61 and T500 laptops in the Lenovo outlet store which both have graphics cards that support OpenGL. But other than the graphics cards, theT500 is essentially what I already have, but they probably don’t have the problems this computer has. Here are the computers:
T61: $748 - http://outlet.lenovo.com/laptops/thinkp ... 57rb2.html
T500: $891 - http://outlet.lenovo.com/laptops/ca2082rf1.html
And one T500 from the market place section of this forum:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... b2755e3125

It was only after I found these laptops that I realized I am repeating myself. I did this the first time around 3 years ago. So now I am stuck. I know I should just buy what I need regardless of cost, and it will pay off later. But my problem is that I can’t buy anything regardless of cost… I’ve thrown $1700 away already… I have been shopping for a new laptop for a while now, and I missed out on the W500 workstations when they were on sale due to the lack of finances at the time. Now they are gone and have been replaced with the better, but more expensive, W510.

So here I am. Looking for someone to tell me if it is a smart move to purchase what is essentially my computer again with a better graphics card for half the price of what I really need. What do you think?

If I shouldn’t go that direction, then I will be forced to suck it up and just deal with what I got until the W510 goes on sale…. Maybe the FHD screen will be in stock then?

Note: I also do photography as a hobby and I use Photoshop CS4 and Lightroom, and would like the ability to edit video, but these rank much lower than the engineering programs.

[ZaZ]

Have you thought about ebay? Lenovo had a 20% outlet coupon last month and I'd bet money that some show up on eBay. This might be an example. You might not do as well as the outlet coupon, but you'd be much closer to your budget and you've still got factory warranty, which could be upgraded.

[RealBlackStuff]

The one on the Market forum is almost identical to Fred's link.
T500 against W500 for about the same price. Not too difficult to choose I guess...

[ss08x]

Hey, great suggestion! Now that brings me to another question...

If I were to buy a W500 without all the features I want, how difficult/realistic/smart is it that I could upgrade it down the road? I'm thinking I will focus on the processor and screen, and things like RAM, HDD, 32 -> 64 bit OS, and such can be neglected in my purchase. Ideally I want Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 4 gb ram, 320 gb 7200 rpm hdd, etc... These can all be added or modified later with no consequence? And obviously things like the finger print reader and webcam can't be added, right?

I am glad you pointed eBay out, the prices are reasonable and getting it by this next weekend is a possibility again. So would it be wise to look for a W500 with a WSXGA+ monitor and a T9600 processor (and of course the good graphics card), and not care too much about the other specs and plan to upgrade later?

Thank you!

[ashleys]

I've always felt that one of the main advantages of buying a "business class" machine like a ThinkPad
was the ability to upgrade it in the future. Furthermore, it's likely to still have spares available for many years, unlike typical "consumer orientated" laptops that manufacturers expect to be thrown away after a few years.

My 7 year old (T30) ThinkPad is still going strong and I recently upgraded parts on it.

[RealBlackStuff]

Buy now, update/upgrade later.
Things like a webcam and FPR are irrelevant really, you want plenty horsepower without the frills.
That's what the W500 offers.

[ss08x]

If I were to purchase a W500 without a Windows 7 OS, I would like to install a copy of it (which would be retail), but I have read that some things like the power manager don't work correctly after doing so?

Also, I should have no problems with having warrantee coverage if buying off of eBay? Is there anything I need to do?


I found the computer I want minus the OS, but he says he will break the factory seal of the refurb'd W500 to check DOA, and then will ship it and accept no returns? Avoid this? Or should I be fine? He has 65, all 100%, reviews, and has only sold 3 things (laptops) in the last 90 days. And he said the same things in the previous sales.

[ZaZ]

I noticed a few W500s today in the outlet a little over $1k.

[ss08x]

Alright, I have two very different quesitons:

1. What are some other mobile workstations I should consider? I ruled out Dell and HP at the beginning, but lets un-rule them out for this question. What is comparable and around the same price point as a W500? Maybe an Elitebook? I'm not completely sold on a W500.

2. Since I am likely getting an older computer without USB 3.0 and Expresscard 2.0, what are my best options for a fast connection to an external hard drive? Would a USB 3.0 expresscard adapter offer any benefits in a expcard 1.0 slot compared to just USB 2.0? The W500 doesn't have eSata either... I'm thinking about buying a USB 3.0 expresscard adapter to add two additional USB ports to the W500 for one, and maybe get a higher speed through it than the built-in USB 2.0 ports? I think that would be more useful than an eSata expcard adapter.

Thanks in advance.

[ZaZ]

You certainly could look at something like the HP 8530w. HP has an outlet too. The 8530s start around $900. The equivalent Dell would be the M4400 and yes, Dell has an outlet.

[RealBlackStuff]

You could also consider Firewire800, either a port on the laptop (like on a -may I say it- MAC), or an adapter card.
Much faster than USB2.0.

[RWDPLZ]

When I was in college for engineering a couple years ago, I had a few Thinkpads, BUT I built a PC to run programs like AutoCAD and Inventor (which you can actually get for free from Autodesk, you download it right off their website). Like you, I was drooling over the W-series, but didn't have $3000 to spend on one. I built a PC that could run those programs for about $800, and it worked flawlessly, 10X faster than the computers in the labs, from the comfort of my own room. I'm sure you coul build something more powerful now, for quite a bit cheaper

http://students.autodesk.com/

Programs like Windows can usually be bought cheap legitimately through school programs, too.

http://www.microsoft.com/student/discou ... fault.aspx

If I was going to buy another new Thinkpad, I would definitely check the Lenovo Outlet store first.

[ss08x]

Thank you guys for your help. I ended up ordering a W500. This is the one I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT
It should be showing up here in the next couple of days.

RWDPLZ, thanks for the tip. But I have already downloaded the student Autodesk software in the past, and I have bought all my Microsoft software through school programs. And the same goes for SolidWorks and CS4. And I have thought about and do plan on building my own desktop, but I need a solid laptop first.

Back to my new W500, I have a few questions:

1. The seller could not tell me if the 320gb HDD is 5400rpm or 7200rpm. So I may end up buying a 320 or 500gb 7200 rpm HDD soon. Should I get Seagate, Western Digital, or something else? Are all mobile internal HDDs the same in size and compatibility?

2. Also, what is your take on these cheap batteries?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Battery-For-Lenovo- ... 2305a13108
I am thinking about buying one as a spare... If these last at least 8 months, then I will be saving money over a $170 new one.

3. What is the difference in Expresscard 1.0 and 2.0 as far as hardware? Is it possible to "upgrade" to a Expresscard 2.0 in my W500?

Thank you!

[ZaZ]

I don't know they all seem about the same to me. Only a SSD will give you markedly better performance. I've had good experiences with Seagates and WDs of late, but that could just be dumb luck.

How about a battery from the outlet, like this? There's a a 10% coupon until Sunday, GREEN10. It's only got a 90 day warranty, but it's a genuine battery. I bought one last year. It looked new to me and had zero cycles.

ExpressCard 2.0 is pretty new. It's obviously faster. Time will tell if you can upgrade it. My guess would be no, but who knows. Congrats on the machine.

[ss08x]

Thanks for the battery link.

How do I order OS recovery discs? Would I be able to get Windows 7 Pro 64-bit recovery discs for a W500 even though mine is Vista Business 32-bit?

I have a retail version of Windows 7 Pro 64 and 32 bit OS, but I have read that a clean install of the retail version has conflicts with Lenovo software. I figured I could get the recovery discs in Windows 7 Pro because they sold W500's with it. So it should work better?

[RealBlackStuff]

http://<promotion of site not allowed>.com/

[ss08x]

Awesome!

Now are they going to provide a new license key?
If I get the W7 64-bit OS recovery DVD's, I don't think the Vista Business key will work. And I don't think my retail license key will work either.

Thank you.

[RealBlackStuff]

Windows from recovery CDs is installed using a built-in volume key.
No need to have your own, but it sure would make you more legal!

[ss08x]

Thank you!

Also, how far does the 9 cell battery stick out of the back? I'm trying to see if it will fit in my current laptop bag and backpack... I won't be able see for myself until Monday afternoon, which is after the 10% promotion ends. I'm not sure if I should buy a 6 cell or 9 cell as far as the physical size for transporting.

I might just get the 9 cell and make it work. Swapping batteries to transport it is just stupid.

[ss08x]

Well, I got my W500 today. It is a W500 4058-CTR. From a few searches I have found that people have problems with this model? (more than others)

Now I have some questions:

#1:
I found that my 320 GB HDD is 5400rpm, and I am considering buying the factory 7200rpm version, or buying a Seagate Momentus 7200 Laptop Hard Drive with G-Force Protection... And if I go with the Seagate, I may just go with the 500 gb version. My concern is that I have read the Bios displays an error or warning message when a non-Lenovo HDD is installed upon every boot. I saw the HDD flashing thread, and I am guessing that that is what I need to do to resolve that? Can someone explain this? I don't know what/why/or how to do it.
Factory 320gb & 7200 rpm: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/cont ... umber=4058
Seagate 320gb & 7200 rpm: http://www.seagate.com/www/en-gb/produc ... ifications

#2:
I want to install Windows 7 Pro x64, but I have read that my computer has problems running it, and I didn't see any solutions from searching...? Should I be able to run W7 Pro x64 okay with the current drivers, or is there an issue still?
See this thread:
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Windows-7-D ... C15DF3CC36


#3:
Now I am not familiar with Smart Cards, PC Cards, or ExpressCards, but I recently discovered that I could use an ExpressCard as an adapter for USB 2.0/3.0 ports, and a PC Car to adapt USB 2.0 ports and you can even buy inside-hide (flush) PC Cards so the USB ports don't stick out. Anyways, my device manager says that I have a PC Card II slot and a smart card slot. By looking at them with my very limited knowledge, I would say that I have a smart card reader and an Expresscard slot… Here’s a picture. What do I have?
USB2.0 PC Card thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... f1878c3d9b
USB3.0 ExpressCard: http://www.amazon.com/2PORT-USB-Express ... B002XW1YY4

A picture of my computer: (slot)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm12 ... 3-edit.jpg


#4
While I am at it, what does the # 4058-CTR tell you about my computer?


I think that covers it for now. Thanks in advance!

[RealBlackStuff]

#4
This is all that Lenovo shows:
Product: ThinkPad W500 4058-CTR [change]
Operating system: All [change]

Original description: Refurb from 4058-CTO: ThinkPad W500 Configure-To-Order system

If you go to this page: http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... yle=lenovo
and enter your type "4058" and your "serial number", it will show you a list of the original parts it came with.
Under the 4058-CTR on the label you might find another number, like 4058ABC.
That would be the 'real' type/model.

[Superego]

#1:
I don't think you have anything to worry about. Looking over this page at Thinkwiki it seems that yours is not one of the affected models (T43, R52, X41). Also, I'm running a non-Lenovo hard drive in my W500 (4058-CTO, nearly identical specs as what's listed in the ebay link) and haven't had a problem. The drive is a Seagate Momentus, 7200 RPM, 500GB (ST9500420AS...almost the same as what you're looking for just without the G-Force Protection) and I've never had an error or had to flash it.

The only issue may be using the G-Force version, as one of the problems listed on Thinkwiki deals with a missing command related to HDAPS. However, since the W500 isn't listed as being affected, you may not have anything to worry about. Are you set on the G-Force version? Does it provide something extra over the Thinkpad's HDAPS? Personally I'd just go with the non G-Force version if you're really worried about compatibility (I'm sure it's probably cheaper too?).

#2
I had Win 7 Ultimate x64 on it up until 2 days ago (blew it away to have a full Archlinux system, thinking about putting win7 in a VM later...but I digress) and never really ran into driver problems. Most of the 64-bit related problems I had were with other programs, specifically antivirus (Kaspersky and Bitdefender).