Reliable P-M Dothan SXGA+ or UXGA Thinkpad?

[eyestrain]

I'd like to go extreme with underfanning for quiet, and not worry about GPU.

Is there a model, or easy to make frankenpad, that:

(A) Doesn't suffer from the ATI solder reliability problem of the t4x/r5x models

(B) Pentium M Dothan, ideally 765, or any version highly undervoltable

(C) sxga+ or higher resolution, 14" or larger, 4:3 (not widescreen)

(D) Trackpoint

(E) Silent when internet surfing, if very undervolted, very underfanned, no magnetic HDD

[ajkula66]

The way I see it, you're looking at 15" R51, R52 or T43 with Intel graphics. No intel-based T4x/R5x will drive a 14" SXGA+ LCD unless you mod the LCD cable, which has to be from a 14" T43/p from what I'm to understand...

Some R51 units had IPS LCDs from the factory, combined with Intel integrated graphics. These are rare to come by. Will take any 400Mhz Dothan, but PM765 that you're looking at is likely to run very hot with the stock fan, so some modding there might be required.

R52 in any shape or form is a non-IPS unit. However, they'll take a FlexView SXGA+ LCD without a problem. Once again, Intel graphics is what you should be looking for. These machines utilize 533 Mhz CPUs, such as PM 760/770/780.

T43 with Intel graphics and an IPS screen was never an "official" offering from IBM, though some of these were built for large corporate customers. There's one in my signature and it's a great machine. CPUs are the same as in R52.

You have noticed that I haven't mentioned UXGA LCDs anywhere. That's because none of these machines will drive one. There is a forum member in UK who got his Intel-based T43 to accept an UXGA LCD with some BIOS modding, and from what I recall that machine was only able to run Linux. Not my cup of tea, but you can do some searching here on the forum if you're interested...

Do bear in mind that at today's prices a T60/R60 with Intel graphics (which will drive an UXGA LCD unlike the earlier models) can be found for not much more than a T4x/R5x in good shape, and would definitely offer you a more modern FrankenPad at the end of the day. I've built one for my kids, and it runs extremely well, while the mod itself was a piece of cake.

My experiences only...

[ZaZ]

I'd agree with George on this one, the T60 or R60 is the way to go. They offer much better performance and have no GPU flex issue. At some point down the road if you want to upgrade to a bigger faster drive or SSD, you'll have limited expensive options, which will probably off-set any cost savings you'd gain by going with an older machine. A R60 probably isn't much more than a T43, though the supply is more limited. My R60 flexview runs quite well. Good Luck.

[eyestrain]

Thanks so much George for the detailed response.

Would any Intel R51 or R52 15" take a 15" sxga+ screen from any T4x/T4xp?

I couldn't put in an old sxga+ panel from, say, an A30, right?

R51 Intel at all seem a little uncommon, but a R52 Intel with native non-IPS sxga+ might even be an option for me if I find one. Or maybe IPS from T4x. Anyone know the noise/heat comparison of R51 vs R52 vs T42, much difference?

a T60/R60 with Intel graphics (which will drive an UXGA LCD unlike

There's an idea.

I've had mixed results quieting my T60, but it has an X1300. I hadn't considered using Intel to run UXGA. Even with powerplay or Linux drivers, X1300 probably uses a few W more than Intel? I couldn't easily find min W usage online for Intel/X1300/FireGLv5200.

I want a silent uxga or sxga+ computer, at least silent for websurfing. Thought Dothan was the best way, because I've read that it is so undervoltable. CD and C2D are chip limited to about .95 as the lowest voltage even when idle, vs. .7 on many Dothans. When surfing, there's relatively long periods of inactivity, where the cpu can idle at very low W with Dothan, much lower I think than CD or C2D.

Why 400mhz? I've read on this forum and/or wiki that DDR is cooler than DDR2, and a few people saying the T42 is quiet, a few saying T43 loud. Though that might be more than just the memory.

Why 765? When undervolting, I think the faster CPU is usually best within the range, so CPU can more quickly finish the job (still undervolted) at highest speed, and get back down to .7V idle. Just what I've read.


Considering the extra cost of LCD swapping, and with Dothan-Intel losing uxga, if T42p's GPU doesn't make too much heat when set to be slow, I might consider a uxga T42p with a stiff board underneath it, always left running, stays in same room, fans essentially never running if possible, always the same temp: hot. Maybe half the price of T60 uxga swap, of course slower & older.

[ajkula66]

Well...if you don't want to hear the fan, T42p - or any "p" for that fact is not really a good idea. It's the GPU that gets hot, even when undervolted.

You could put an A3x LCD in a R5x/T4x, but you'd have to use the proper SXGA+ cable and inverter specified for the R5x/T4x.

Having said that, most of the A30 SXGA+ LCDs are non-IPS...so there would be no gain over a native screen of a R52.

Intel-based machines run a lot quieter and cooler, unless pressed hard. The fan on my wife's T43 (see signature) barely ever comes on, while one on my T43p is on at most times.

PM765 is the fastest Dothan (2.1 Ghz) for T42/p and prior T4x/R5x series. PM 780 (2.26 Ghz) is the one you'd be using on a T43/p or R52 if you wanted the max performance.

A lot of things come into play with quiet vs. loud...most ATi-based T43/p machines have audible (some would say noisy) fans. Not true for Intel-based machines which have a different fan design to begin with.

No machine will be cool and quiet with a PM765, undervolt is as much as you want. Optimum cool/quiet performance comes from 735/745 for an average user, at least in my experience. That's in DDR 400 Mhz range that would apply to R51 if you were to get one.

If you were going the T43/R52 route, I'd suggest staying with PM750/760 for optimal quiet and cool machine once undervolted.

BTW, my R6x FrankenPad with Intel GPU was as quiet - if not more so - with a Core Duo CPU as my Intel-based T43. Once I threw in the C2D, things changed a bit, and the fan comes on more often nowadays...I'm certain that this can be achieved with any Intel-based T6x/R6x machine.

My experiences only...

[Vempele]

Why 400mhz? I've read on this forum and/or wiki that DDR is cooler than DDR2

They're wrong. http://www.rampedia.com/index.php/DDR1-vs-DDR2-Power (okay, that's desktop memory at slightly-higher-than-bog-standard voltages, but my point is that DDR2 was designed to use less power than DDR).

[eyestrain]

A lot of things come into play with quiet vs. loud...most ATi-based T43/p machines have audible (some would say noisy) fans. Not true for Intel-based machines which have a different fan design to begin with.

Thanks, that's helpful, so maybe it's the fan design that leads to some of the comments. Maybe I shouldn't take T43 louder than T42 to mean 533 louder than 400.

No machine will be cool and quiet with a PM765, undervolt is as much as you want. Optimum cool/quiet performance comes from 735/745 for an average user, at least in my experience.

Here's what I'm thinking about, the last post in this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... ny#p518838
Even after undervolding both CPUs, a 2.0 cpu ran at lower V @ 1.1ghz than a 1.1 cpu could. And the 1.1 was a ULV chip! So I'd expect a 2.0 cpu to be able to do similar vs a 1.5. You could force it to stay at 1.5, and do it with less energy than the 1.5 cpu would take, or let it go to 2.0 with more, but it would do it 33% faster and get back to a cool idle again. I suppose if worried about overdriving the fan, then after undervolting, could limit the cpu to the highest freq that can reach within the V that the base chip max V was, without undervolting. And to make that reach the highest number, I think it would help to use the highest freq chip possible, in general. Kind of like making your own UULV chip, intentionally limiting the freq.

Once I threw in the C2D, things changed a bit, and the fan comes on more often nowadays...

I've read on this forum the opinion that this is the fault of the BIOS, and that C2D is more power efficient than CD, using only a tiny bit more power than CD but maybe 25% faster IIRC. Fan control software can overcome this of course.

Thanks for the advice, I'll have to look for an Intel T60 15", though total cost of the UXGA+intel machine is a factor in comparison to other (but warmer,sxga+, and/or slower) options.

[eyestrain]

They're wrong. http://www.rampedia.com/index.php/DDR1-vs-DDR2-Power (okay, that's desktop memory at slightly-higher-than-bog-standard voltages, but my point is that DDR2 was designed to use less power than DDR).

Thanks for the link, hadn't googled for or seen that. Just googled today, and saw this:

For ordinary DDR, this change was a paltry single watt, and the higher speed DDR2 was limited to 2.5W. When idle power requirements were compared, the situation was reversed: Ordinary DDR increased power draw by two watts, while DDR2 did not appear to draw any power.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article265-page4.html

They had trouble seeing small changes though.

If DDR2 really does have as low idle consumption as both sources say, that's a big benefit. Depending on what idle means.

[ajkula66]

eyestrain wrote:

Even after undervolding both CPUs, a 2.0 cpu ran at lower V @ 1.1ghz than a 1.1 cpu could. And the 1.1 was a ULV chip! So I'd expect a 2.0 cpu to be able to do similar vs a 1.5.

I have not mentioned 1.5 anywhere.

PM 735 is 1.7 Ghz and PM 745 is 1.8 Ghz. Real life performance is not that different to begin with.

Buy an Intel-based T60/R60 with a busted LCD (or a cheap complete one), throw in an IPS LCD and call it a day...

[RealBlackStuff]

Why all this hoopla about undervolting etc.
Are you trying to extend battery life to the extreme? Or save on your electricity bill? Or...

[eyestrain]

I have not mentioned 1.5 anywhere.

Sorry, my mistake, you didn't.

Why all this hoopla about undervolting etc.

Noises drive me a little nuts. Been putting up with it far too long... started a quieting/undervolting project just after I bought loud T60 (compared to very quiet PII 770e) but got sidetracked, til lately finally couldn't stand it anymore.

Back on Windows today, and am able to get steady low 60 degree temps on internet, with no fan, even with my ATI, better than I remember a couple years ago. KB is warm, but that's OK with me if it's ok with the hardware.

If I ever get my ideal silent rig(s) together and running, especially with Linux (more challenging, at least for me) will have to make post about it, might help some other oversensitive suffering thinkpadder.

[RealBlackStuff]

I guess you use SSDs everywhere.
And your 'quiet' laptop already exists (albeit not made by IBM/Lenovo): http://www.enduserblog.com/2009/03/asus ... in-09.html
And if you need extra (fan-less) cooling: http://www.redferret.net/?p=15739

[Temetka]

Interesting Asus design to be sure.

I'm typing this on my X41T and while it does have a 'lowly' 1.5GHz CPU I can still hear the fan. It has never bothered me and I don't think it will. The only times that fans on laptops bother me is when it is one of those ginamorous dekstop replacement laptops that weigh 8 pounds and have a 30 minute battery life. Those always have gigantic fans in them to cool the desktop CPU the manufacturer crammed in there.

[ajkula66]

Fanless design is not really a new concept...

ThinkPad 560 is the oldest fanless laptop that I can recall having. My (since sold) Panasonic CF-R4 machines were also passively cooled, while utilizing ULV Dothan CPUs. They were ridiculously light (2 lb with battery installed) and had an exemplary battery life. Very impressive little units. Having said that, they did get very hot when pushed hard, even undervolted. But if one would require an extremely well-built yet dead quiet "on the go" machine, that would be my recommendation.

However, bigger the machine, faster the CPU/GPU...a well-performing fan becomes a necessity.

[eyestrain]

I guess you use SSDs everywhere.

CF-IDE, yes. Real SSDs are still too expensive for me. I like using the ultrabay HDD adapter, allows fast change of drive. I plan to use a magnetic drive for a (loud) game machine boot at some point. Pop out the quiet CF with undervolting and fan control boot, put in a big magnetic hard drive with games and no fan control.

And your 'quiet' laptop already exists (albeit not made by IBM/Lenovo): http://www.enduserblog.com/2009/03/asus ... in-09.html

Neat. There's several, as George says, but none I could find that meet the list at top of this thread. Closest is Sony Vaio P, but $$$, and small screen with big bezel. No others I saw have a trackpoint. Here's a partial list for anyone interested: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=39694

And if you need extra (fan-less) cooling: http://www.redferret.net/?p=15739

Thank you!! I hadn't heard of these! Could be a real help. I was thinking of leaving on all the time. I left a T60 on for hours fanless on top of an aluminum pot, it settled at CPU 50, vs 61 after a couple hours on internet. But instead, maybe I could leave it off, it boots fast with CF (ssd essentially), and use a pad for 1-3 hours, if still using, use pad #2 or switch to X41t. Then switch off. Depending on max temp with the pad, I suppose that might be better for the computer... suppose I should buy one pad to test. One review said 5-8 better than fans (under?), another 10-15 better than flat surface. Nice. http://www.amazon.com/ThermaPAK-Laptop- ... B001CBFTFM

I'm typing this on my X41T and while it does have a 'lowly' 1.5GHz CPU I can still hear the fan.

Thanks for info. Sounds like I'll prob undervolt &/or underfan my X41t too. Supposed to arrive tomorrow!

Fanless design is not really a new concept...

Wish there were more with trackpoints. The one you mention didn't have one, far as my googling can tell.

[ajkula66]

eyestrain wrote:

Wish there were more with trackpoints. The one you mention didn't have one, far as my googling can tell.

That is correct, no trackpoint on Panasonics. However, the circular touchpad on recent ones that I've owned is by far the best one I've ever used, at least for my clumsy hands...