X30 - Boot Up to Black Screen - HELP !

[blue2]

I have an X30 Thinkpad which is working PERFECTLY except for one small problem. Any time I need to boot up to run a scan or test requiring exclusive access to the drive, without windows loading, the machines boots up to a black screen. This happens for example when (1) trying to do a boot scan in Avast, (2) trying to run checkdsk, or (3 cloning a drive using Acronis Echo Workstation.

In each case, the X30 reboots to the Thinkpad screen, then the XP Startup Screen briefly starts and then the screen goes to black. The hard drive shows activity so I know that the process is running. But there is no way to see what it is doing. So when running Acronis to clone a drive, I have to wait until the activity stops to know the drive clone has finished (normally you see a screen that indicates progress and tells you when it is done) and know that pressing any key will then shut down the machine.

The machine is running XP Pro, SP3, has 768MB memory, and has all the latest drivers (bios, controller, graphics chipset, etc.) I've run System Update and confirmed this. I've also gone to the Intel site and run their chipset utility and verified it.

I believe the issue is due to the Intel 830 graphics chipset. (At least I've seen some reports of black screens due to this chipset.) So I've tried installing the Thinkpad Chipset Support for Windows XP, 2000, 98SE, 98 Supplement and even re-installed the graphics driver in safe mode, but it makes no difference. I've re-initailized the settings in BIOS.

At this point I don't know what else to do. Does any one have any ideas ?

[sojourner]

I've never heard of anything like this; wonder if your BIOS 'Display' settings have anything to do with it. On my T41 there are the following under Display options:

Default Primary Video Device
Boot Display Device
HV expansion
Brightness

I'd check the BIOS settings!

[blue2]

Thanks for those suggestions.

However, I believe that the X30 uses an integrated graphics chipset while the T41 does not. I've seen plenty of reports of Intel integrated chipsets and black screens. (from Acronis http://kb.acronis.com/content/1839 to chkdsk http://boardreader.com/thread/Black_scr ... X6wzh.html). So unless someone has an explanation to the contrary, I do believe that it is related to the integrated chipset. On the other Thinkpads I use which do NOT have an integrated chipset (T23, T61, X31, T41, Z60m, X60s), the issue does not appear.

I checked in BIOS and even re-initialized by selecting to load the default BIOS settings (F9) and to Restart with Saved Changes (F10). So it isn't possible to have the "wrong" BIOS settings. Just in case, I tried changing the Boot Display Device in BIOS to LCD, but it made NO difference.

On the X30, the only choices for Display are:
-- Default Primary Video Device: either PCI (DEFAULT) or Internal
-- Boot Display Device: either CRT (DEFAULT) or LCD or Both
-- HV Expansion: either ON (DEFAULT) or Off
-- Brightness: either NORMAL (DEFAULT) or High


Since the X30 is running the latest BIOS and Controller, and this unit is not likely to receive further Bios updates given its age, that does not give me many possible solutions.

[Harryc]

Try changing this one too -
-- Default Primary Video Device: either PCI (DEFAULT) or Internal (make it internal)

[blue2]

Ok, tried that additional change in the BIOS as well, saved and exited (F10). It made no difference.

So the display settings work perfectly EXCEPT when you try to boot and run something BEFORE Windows.

Since it happens on all applications that I run in that way (chkdsk, Acronis and AVast's boot scan), it is clearly not related to the application. So what would cause the display to not have the necessary settings to run outside of windows? The only things I could come up with are the BIOS/Controller (I've verified that the most current is installed, and re-initialized it just in case) and the graphics chipset, which doesn't leave many settings choices.

I don't have another machine that uses this chipset so I have nothing else to compare it to and EVERY other Thinkpad I either use or have used in the past, does NOT have this odd black screen behavior. If you did not attempt to run chkdsk, Acronis or a boot scan, you would NOT notice anything else that was out of the ordinary.

[Harryc]

Surely there is someone here with an X30 that can try this for you. Good luck

[blue2]

Yes, that is what I'm hoping for.

If you google intel and black screen, you'll find that some of the Intel integrated Intel chipsets have reports of issues. I wonder if this is because of memory limitations, both in the machine and in video memory. (I think I remember reading that the X30 machine does not have discrete video memory, but "borrows" from system memory.) However, upgrading RAM made no difference either. Perhaps someone here with more expertise will know more about this.

Black screen issues like this that are reported on the Intel website almost always end with the statement "Contact the machine manufacturer for a BIOS update". And I don't imagine that Lenovo is going to be issuing any further BIOS updates for this unit...

[Harryc]

And I don't imagine that Lenovo is going to be issuing any further BIOS updates for this unit...

If you can prove that this is a common problem across all X30's , and if Lenovo states that it is fixable via BIOS, then it is possible to get it fixed. Try doing a forum search for X30 and send PM's to recent owners asking to respond to this thread.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... =&gs_rfai=

[blue2]

I can't prove anything. I can only point to my experience and try to be methodical in what I can rule out by process of elimination. Perhaps other X30 users (not T30, by the way) don't run chkdsk or Avast boot scans or use Acronis Echo Workstation. In which case, they will NEVER see this issue. The display is perfect when not trying to perform one of those three actions.

As for Lenovo responding, I have a T61 that has much lower volume than ANY of my other Thinkpads. MANY Thinkpad owners have complained about this. It should be fixable in BIOS, since I've seen BIOS updates that have increased the volume in units that already had sufficient volume. Yet I don't see Lenovo doing anything about it. So I'm not counting on them to resolve an issue on a Thinkpad of several years ago. I try to be realistic.

What I was hoping for was that someone here, who had more experience than I do, would be curious about what might cause it. For example, if you look at this Microsoft KB article about a Dell unit it points to a similar issue with the 830 chipset. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/318031 Can I prove it is the same issue? No, but I certainly question why this chipset comes up in so many posts about black screen issues.

Rather than just blindly trying fixes for this apparent "bug" that might cause bigger issues, I was hoping for some technical expertise. I have five other Thinkpads that do NOT have this issue. So it must come from something.

[Harryc]

I was simply suggesting that you can help yourself by contacting other known recent owners of X30's and asking for them to try this boot scenario. That's all. If you do not want to help yourself by doing that, then have a nice day. No sweat here.

[blue2]

And I respectfully submit that EVERYTHING that I've posted here has been an attempt to help myself. I haven't done anything to suggest that I'm relying on anyone else for THE solution, including Lenovo.

I've posted a great deal of info to narrow down the issue. I've posted as much information as I have, such as the machine specs, OS, the various solutions I've tried, and the references I've read. I indicated the three occasions where it occurs.

You indicated that if I could "prove" that it occurs on ALL X30s and could be fixed in BIOS, Lenovo would solve it. And I pointed out why I can't prove anything. I only have one X30 and therefore a database of one. I also can't say whether it can or can't be fixed in BIOS.

I said that I saw no reason to rely on Lenovo or Intel for a solution and that is why I posted here. A forum like this one gives one the ability to share common experiences and hopefully come up with common solutions.

[Harryc]

We are not communicating very well, so I'll drop it. Good luck.

[sojourner]

blue2, try this:
boot into safe mode (tap, tap, tap F8 shortly after boot splash screen appears). I'm curious whether you can see the various commands (will look like commands scrolling on a DOS screen). Can you see them? If so I'm inclined to think the problem results from a windows configuration issue. I find it hard to believe it has to do with the 830 chipset!

If you can see the command lines and have a full good backup I'd try a repair install of the OS using default BIOS settings. Of course you'd have to then reinstall SP3, security updates etc.

[blue2]

Hello Sojourner. I forgot to mention that I did initially test booting into safe mode but unfortunately I discovered that I can't run the Avast boot scanner from safe mode. It was one of the workarounds that I attempted. I could boot Acronis into safe mode from its Recovery Media CD, but the problem then would be that I'd have to do a backup to an external drive via USB 1.0 which is a lot slower than if the backup drive is in the drive bay (being used instead to read the recovery cd).

When I did boot into safe mode with networking, everything booted just fine. I removed and re-installed the graphics driver that way.

It might be a windows issue but I don't think that a repair install would do anything besides forcing me to re-configure everything as I have this unit working just the way I want, patched and fast, EXCEPT for this boot issue when trying to run something BEFORE windows loads.

Why do you find it hard to believe that it is the 830 chipset? I provided a few links of posts indicating various black screen issues due to the integrated chipset. I'm inclined to believe that the issue is due to a limitation in video memory when windows is not loaded.

[sojourner]

Hello Sojourner. I forgot to mention that I did initially test booting into safe mode

so is it correct to say you saw all the commands of various drivers loading in safe mode?

but unfortunately I discovered that I can't run the Avast boot scanner from safe mode.

I'm not familiar with that software or Acronis Echo Workstation or what they do.

It was one of the workarounds that I attempted. I could boot Acronis into safe mode from its Recovery Media CD, but the problem then would be that I'd have to do a backup to an external drive via USB 1.0 which is a lot slower than if the backup drive is in the drive bay (being used instead to read the recovery cd).

Hmmm, do you have access to another computer with USB2? If so you could do a complete backup with your HDD installed in a USB enclosure (I do that on ocassion).

When I did boot into safe mode with networking, everything booted just fine. I removed and re-installed the graphics driver that way.

Don't think the GUI drivers are the problem, don't think they are not loaded before CHKDSK (if I'm wrong some please correct me).

It might be a windows issue but I don't think that a repair install would do anything besides forcing me to re-configure everything as I have this unit working just the way I want, patched and fast, EXCEPT for this boot issue when trying to run something BEFORE windows loads.

A couple of things; with a repair install I don't ever recall having to re-configure everything. Windows should not touch your installed software. Yes certain windows drivers and registry changes are made but they are specific to Windows OS. If you've done customizing of your registry you might have to re-configure some of them. But also, as far as the problem being windows related another thought came to mind. There may be a software conflict with windows caused by Acronis or some other software you've installed, something that has a low level initialization (such as a boot scanner). If you think this is a possibility perhaps you could uninstall it (them) and then try try a CHKDSK and see if the screen appears (it SHOULD, appear even with 8meg of memory). If you can see CHKDSK then you'll know there is a software conflict.

Why do you find it hard to believe that it is the 830 chipset? I provided a few links of posts indicating various black screen issues due to the integrated chipset. I'm inclined to believe that the issue is due to a limitation in video memory when windows is not loaded.

I scanned quickly through the posts but didn't see anything indicating a typical windows install would conflict with 8meg video, perhaps I missed it?

[blue2]

Yes, all the drivers loaded without problem in safe mode with networking and boot up is successful. As I've described, the ONLY time a black screen occurs is when I want to invoke a process that needs EXCLUSIVE drive access BEFORE windows loads.

Avast, a popular antivirus, can run a scan on bootup BEFORE windows loads (to detect resident viruses). Acronis Echo Workstation is imaging software that backups or clones from one machine type to another. It separates the OS and software from the HAL (hardware abstraction layer). I've used it to migrate from an X31 to a T41 and from a T41 to a T61, and just the updating of some of the hardware drivers was necessary.

Yes, I could remove the drive and place it as well as another drive in external USB enclosures to back up with another machine that has USB 2.0, but that's just impractical. I avoid excessive drive manipulation and backing up every week this way would be painful.

I've done a number of registry tweaks (security tweaks on software restriction policy, etc.) so I don't want to start with a repair or re-install of windows when NOTHING suggests to me yet that it is windows related. It seems more logical to consider it a graphics driver or Bios issue until something proves otherwise. (When scrolling on my T61 continually caused Firefox to crash, I re-installed the Synaptics UltraNav driver, rather than assume it was OS related. That solved that isssue.)

Besides, if this were a problem caused by windows or a software conflict, why would that same conflict NOT appear on any of my other Thinkpads that have the same software installed? That suggests that it is X30 bios or driver related. Several apps use low level initialization and I won't stop using them (Avast antivirus, Acronis imaging software and Kerio firewall) to get an X30 to work correctly when those apps work fine on all my other Thinkpads (T61, X60s, Z60m, T23, X31).

Why do you still find it hard to believe that it could be a chipset/bios issue? What leads you to that conclusion? If the graphics driver does NOT conflict when EVERY driver is loaded, why would a conflict prevent it from loading when windows isn't running and only LIMITED drivers are loading? That doesn't seem logical to me. That suggests an issue with the graphics driver or that something IT needs to load is not present (e.g. sufficient memory). And since the Thinkpad splash screen occurs, followed by a brief Windows screen before the screen goes black, there is NO driver conflict preventing it from loading at that point. However, chkdsk, Acronis and the Avast boot scan all require EXCLUSIVE drive access without windows running (the only way to check for disk corruption, to image by drive sectors or to scan for low level viruses).

I provided a few links indicating various black screen issues with Intel integrated chipsets. There are many of them. Just look at the Intel forums. I have not seen one issue yet that is related to a windows issue or a software conflict. The machine works perfectly aside from when a process needs exclusive drive access, in which case the display is not working correctly. So it seems more logical with me to start with the display or with Bios.
http://communities.intel.com/search?res ... ack+screen
http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/i ... 029932.htm
http://communities.intel.com/thread/118 ... S?tstart=0

[t140568]

Have you tried a clean install or tried a different OS? I know it's sort of a cop-out answer, but it might be worth a try.

While I don't use Windows, the closest thing to this in Linux I've experienced is: Upon bootup, Ubuntu 9.10 makes its way to the loading screen and it flickers for a few moments and the image is off to the right by ~2", then everything is fine after a few seconds. Granted, Ubuntu is not Windows, this issue didn't happen in previous versions of Ubuntu, and is probably just related specifically to Ubuntu, but it's the best I can do for you.

One more thing... Has it always been this way, or did it just start?

[blue2]

Thanks for your reply.

No, I have not tried a clean install as that's always something I look at as a last ditch solution. While this issue is not pleasant, it would only be made worse if I re-installed causing days of work to tweak applications, settings, the registry, etc. and then found that the issue was NOT resolved.

What I might do though is try a fresh install on another drive to see if the issue is replicated. Unfortunately, I don't have the X30 recovery cds but I do have them for my X31.

So do I understand that the display issue on startup you are referring to was on your X30? Did you ever run chkdsk or anything in Linux that has exclusive drive access before the OS loads?

I can't tell you if this issue has always been this way as I've only recently discovered it. It only happens with applications that launch at bootup when Windows has not loaded, so that isn't something that occurs frequently. I recently discovered this when I attempted to run Acronis Echo Workstation for the first time on this machine. (It works perfectly on all my other machines.) Then I tested to see if the same issue occurs with other boot processes, such as chkdsk and Avast's boot scan, and discovered the same issue.

[rkawakami]

Have you tried the Fn+F7 key combination or attached an external monitor to see if that works?

[blue2]

Yes, thanks though for that suggestion.

I did try the Fn + F7 key combination just in case, but no, it was of no use. That did not surprise me very much since I did see an initial Thinkpad boot screen followed by a brief Windows splash screen before the drive access is locked and the display turns black. So the LCD panel is being seen correctly on bootup and it is not being output to an external monitor.

Once a process appears to need exclusive access to the drive without windows loading, the display boots up to the Thinkpad boot screen, a brief Windows screen and then turns black. However, when the machine boots up to windows, the screen goes from the Thinkpad boot screen to a brief black screen and then boots up quickly to the Windows XP Pro logon screen.

[t140568]

So do I understand that the display issue on startup you are referring to was on your X30?

Yes.

[blue2]

When I posted this issue at the Acronis forum (although the issue does NOT pertain solely to Acronis), here is their response:

"Acronis uses its own environment during the cloning process, so most likely, it just don't have necessary video drivers or detects your video adapter incorrectly."

I have also posted this issue at Intel, but have yet to get a response. Everything tells me that this is video driver related, either in the driver itself, in a conflict with something else or with some limitation in Bios or memory that prevents the display from functioning when exclusive drive access is necessary to run a boot process.

[phaxmohdem]

I just installed the latest version of Avast, scheduled a boot-time scan and rebooted. The Windows XP loading image showed for a bit, then it went to a blue screen showing the progress of the virus scan. No black screen as you mentioned in your post. I also tried a chkdsk command in safe-mode with command prompt, and nothing abnormal happened.

If you could perhaps help me more closely recreate your circumstances, I'll give it a shot, but so far nothing appears to be wrong on my unit: 2673-BU1

[blue2]

I just installed the latest version of Avast, scheduled a boot-time scan and rebooted. The Windows XP loading image showed for a bit, then it went to a blue screen showing the progress of the virus scan. No black screen as you mentioned in your post. I also tried a chkdsk command in safe-mode with command prompt, and nothing abnormal happened.

If you could perhaps help me more closely recreate your circumstances, I'll give it a shot, but so far nothing appears to be wrong on my unit: 2673-BU1

The X30 is running XP Pro SP3. The machine boots normally EXCEPT when I try to run a boot process. In those cases, the XP loading image starts and then the screen goes to black, while the disk indicator shows continual disk activity, so it is clear that the process is running.

I did NOT try runing chkdsk in safe mode with a command prompt, but ran it by typing chkdsk at a command prompt which then schedules chkdsk to run following the next reboot.

The only other thing I can think of is that I once had Kaspersky antivirus installed on the original drive that I worked from and it used object identifiers to speed up scanning by "tagging" each file on the drive. It was known to slow down chkdsk, but I never had it affect Avast boot scans or Acronis True Image before.